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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:03 pm 
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I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who has been having a hard time getting off of Suboxone and staying off of Suboxone, they made the comment that they didn't think true recovery (from opiates) was possible while on Suboxone. I was wondering what others thought about this subject?

As far as I'm concerned, I think recovery is possible while on Suboxone, up to a point. In my experience, being on Suboxone prevented me from getting "full" recovery. Once off of Suboxone, an entirely new area of recovery opened up to me. I no longer had any "buffer" between me and the world and I really had to work hard to deal with and accept a lot of things that didn't even phase me while on Suboxone.

In no way am I saying that Suboxone is a bad thing, not at all.....I'm just asking the question as to whether or not true recovery can be achieved while on Suboxone. Without Suboxone giving me that huge leg up on my early recovery, I would NEVER be where I am now.

I was gonna put this thread in the Freestyle section so I could get unvarnished opinions and comments on this topic, but the Freestyle section is no more freestyle than any other of our sections here. I still encourage folks to speak to their minds on this subject. All opinions are welcome.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Hi Romeo and how are you doing??

This is a good question and a good topic. I have been on subutex for about 3 years now....after a 29 year addiction to
hydrocodone. I agree with you that this bup has saved my life. I am sober for the first time in 29 years..nothing else
ever worked for me and I have tried everything. So, now I have 3 years sober but I must admit I am really
dependent on the bup. I look forward to taking it...and don't think I could stand to be without it and have mainly just
taken the bup and let life go by without working on the rest of my addiction behavior...
This is just my opinion...and i am surely pro sub....but I don't think I will ever get really sober and back to the real me
until I get off the bup. I am so dependent on it..I like the way it feels in my hand before I take it. and so on , just like
my drug of choice was...I am on 8 mg. and really should be trying to go to 4 and some days I take an extra 8 in the
afternoon because of pain...( I have some back problems but not serious and I use it as an excuse))

You are right about recovery up to a point...but I don't think I am getting full recovery while on this med. It is a buffer
and I may have to stay on it for a long time...but deep down I know what I need to do...and that is work on my recovery
by seeing someone or going back to AA or something...and my way of thinking needs to change..I need to care and listen to others more than toot my own horn...which I always liked to do...

I guess I am saying I still have a lot of work to do...and as long as I have the bup it is easy to just do nothing because I
feel good..I need to have good and bad days and learn how to deal with them. I need to learn a whole lot of things because
my children at 13 were more mature than me. I hope you get my drift...I know i am rambling here but I agree with what
you are saying here...I am just so afraid to get off the bup...just like I was afraid to get off the drugs...
I hope someday I will be able to taper off and learn how to live my life without a pill.

Thanks,
Slipper

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Hey slipper,

Good to hear from ya again!! I'm doing fine, thanks for asking.

After reading your post, I wanted to thank you for your honesty AND say how proud I am of you for even having the strength to get on Suboxone in the first place. A lot of opiate addicts never even make it that far.

Don't give up on your dream of getting off of Suboxone one day. The best advice I can give you is that you will KNOW when it's your time. Until then, just keep doing what you're doing because you're light years ahead of where you were!!

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 Post subject: Good question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Hey Romeo ... very good question ... I guess any answer requires clarification of terms ... for instance many on this forum refer to their years on sub as sober years ... for those who consider themselves clean or sober using 8 mg of sub (or any amount) a day is a comparative term ... compared to where they were... we are REALLY clean and feel sober ... But alas we are not ... I believe sub masks an ongoing drug issue ... Doctors say sub is not an addictive drug but a physically dependent one ... such BS ... sub like methadone is very difficult to kick ... but with the kind words from people like you it remains within reach.
Romeo, i applaud the likes of you and my personal hero Robert_325 as raising the bar of compassion and awareness of this difficult journey towards a TRUELY sober life.
Taking any amount of sub IS NOT BEING CLEAN OR SOBER.


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 Post subject: recovery
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:37 pm 
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Hey Romeo,

I agree with you - complete recovery is not possible while on replacement therapy. It is now close to 90 days for me off opiates, and each day gets better and better. I did not expect utopia - there are still days where I have zero motivation, cravings, and an overall depressed mood, but each day I am thankful that I am no longer chained to a daily medication in order to function. My feeling is it took me years to get buried in my addiction so I shouldn't expect everything to be perfectly normal a few months out. It takes time, dedication, and courage. But it can be done. And its worth it.

Jimmy


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:58 pm 
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It depends on whether you place limits on what "full recovery" is. Having experienced both recovery on and off Suboxone, I definitely do feel that life on Suboxone loses some of its colour in comparison. There is a feeling of emotional cotton-wool, some kinda layer between yourself and the world that turns down the volume, and narrows the scope of emotions a bit.

All that being said, I do feel that the one time I felt I put 100% into living clean without methadone or Suboxone, I wasn't 100% ready to give it up. I had enough in the tank to get me over the 12-13month clean mark, but nowhere near enough to get me any kinda life-long abstinence.

This was further proven when I went on Suboxone this time. I felt I was "moving backwards" in my recovery by making that choice, but the fact that I still couldn't give up using 100%, even while on Suboxone, was evidence that I made the right choice. SLOWLY I've gathered enough momentum and life skills, and SLOWLY come to feel worthy of living life without drugs, that only in the last couple of months I felt a real turning-point come within myself. It's hard to describe but even when I've left my Suboxone at home and can't get to it, and am covered in goosebumps and kicking my legs around the car ... I still won't let myself consider using. This may have had something to do with my girlfriend but the change was bigger in me.

Being on Sub has allowed me to have enough Suboxone based clean time to be able to get the rest of the change I need to live without opioids. Sub truly is a circuit breaker, because when a person tries to get clean without it, often they're so broken and incapable of living that it's hard to learn to live AND live without drugs at the same time. It's a mammoth task actually. Sub lets you take on each of those challenges one at a time.

But yeah Romeo I do agree that Sub does take some colour out of living. But to me it's a necessary evil in achieving real abstinence.

I'm also never going to give in and place limits on my recovery, or say I'm going to stay on Sub for life. I've seen enough people, full-on heroin and methadone and Sub addicts, manage to live clean without any replacement pharmacotherapy that I won't place any limits on what I can and can't achieve in my recovery.


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 Post subject: Re: Good question
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:38 am 
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macboy wrote:

Taking any amount of sub IS NOT BEING CLEAN OR SOBER.


here's a whole thread on that " idea"
http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7 ... sc&start=0


First off, THANKS romeo, for such a good conversation starter.................for sure!!

so,,, just for ME,,,,,,
in MY experience,,,, honestly, I don't mind being on suboxone,,,, I honestly don't feel "high" or even "elevated" or ANYTHING,,
I do feel somewhat relaxed after I take it, if it's like way over due, let's say a day and a half,,, I kind of get an "ahhh" feeling,
MOSTLY, as my back loosens up,,,and my knees stop aching,,,,,,,, LOL

I dont "crave" suboxone,,,,, the pain that I do feel, I guess I crave relief from that, but NOT anything, even CLOSE to when I was using....
that's why I answered TJ's post, that I do think IM CLEAN, while on suboxone.
I can go two or three days without taking it, and Im still me, I still go to work, take care of my son, and attend to all my responsibilities,,,,
just with an old-football-player-type walk,,,,,,,,,,LOL

I think I can achieve true recovery,,, I feel feelings NOW, that I sure haven't in YEARS, decades maybe.
It's the eve of my 31st birthday right now,,,
and this is my second birthday,,, NOT on drugs,,, (other than suboxone yes)
a TRUE ACCOMPLISHMENT for me,,,,,
a former IV drug user,,, a former dope fiend that would steal almost anything I could to be NOT 'sick'
there was a time, where I never ever thought I'd have a so-called "normal" life again.

I think it's UP TO EACH ONE OF US,,, how much you DO for your recovery,,,, WHAT you do for it, HOW you do anything,,,
each one of us knows what we do when NOONE else is "watching"
Im truely scared of relapsing.
I know, that one of my biggest "triggers" is pain,,,
the work I do, and the damage that's been done, from being ON pain killers while working, I couldn't feel my cartlige crushing,
or my joints rubbing together,,,,
sure CAN NOW!!!

maybe YOU CAN achieve your "idea" of true recovery ON suboxone,,,,
it depends....
you certainly, cannot take this magic medication and be completly "healed"

when I went on suboxone, I changed my phone number, got a job, started parenting classes right away,,
and did a few other things, thru the out-patient center.

Now, Im in counseling about a year now,,,
Im a "helper' at my dr's office,,,,, I help people induce on suboxone, be there to answer their questions, help them get set up for group therapy, counseling ETC ETC ETC
it's a really good program,,
keeps me scared of going 'back'

If your gonna "do this"
you gotta change EVERYTHING,, and I mean all of it...............there was NO half-way for ME, anyways,

I guess if suboxone ISN'T clean and sober to some people, than Im not to those people,,
but if I didnt tell anyone, they'd never know otherwise.

so, if that's true, and your NOT clean on suboxone,,,,,, what else qualifies??

my grandma takes sleeping pills, and a benzo at night, to sleep when she has nightmares about
a really bad car wreck she was in, Or the day her son died in her arms,,,
Is she NOT clean, cuz she "gets high" off the xanax and goes to sleep?
no, cuz she doesn't abuse it, right? well, niether do I.

It's a great topic................Im NOT meaning to PISS anyone off, I was just joining in the conversation!!!
thanks for letting me share :wink:

19months, on suboxone
worked the SAME job since week three on suboxone,
a record for ME
the 19mos is a record too, since 14 yrs of age, when I first smoked cocaine
i got my teeth fixed
pay my BILLS,, something new there too!!
I have NO insurance, pay for my sub outta pocket, dr. does slideing scale for appts.
addiction therapy, ongoing parenting classes, marriage counseling, and the "helper" program
group therapy twice a month
family counseling w/my four yr old, once a month
volunteer at my son's preschool one day a month
excersise daily,
take care of my grandmother,
just to name a FEW things I've been able to do, since going on suboxone.

when I was on methadone, ALL I ever did was Nod out and make cigarette burns, EVERY place I sat down.
(was Rx'd it for pain management)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Hi Romeo

When I found myself having to get clean I set short, mid and long term goals for myself. Short term was to obviously detox from my DOC. Without Suboxne there is no way I could have done it. I quit Opana, Soma and Klonopin at the same time and was put on Sub's, an anti-depressant and Trazadone. I went through a few days of hell until my dose was stabilized but that was just fine, I was clean.

After the initial detox I went onto Suboxone maintenance, stabilized at 12mg a day and began working on recovery. I've used absolutely nothing in almost a year, not even pot (I've never been into illegal street drugs) and place a good amount of credit for that on Suboxone. I know, for a fact, if I had used Subs short term, to simply detox and then get off of them the chance I would have relapsed within a few months is about 100%. This is my second time using Sub's, the first time was to kick a Percocet addiction. I used Sub's for detox and a month later jumped off, against the advice of my doctor. Three years later I was back down to the road to active addiction. Suboxone is allowing me to work towards recovery and is giving me sober time to learn to live clean, something I did not give myself my first go around. I wish, years ago, I had listened to my doctor but we addicts are a hard headed bunch.

Some people, including those I've met in N/A and A/A meetings have told me I'm not truly clean (including at a N/A meeting I attended that was held at the recovery clinic I go to that has all of their patients on Subs or Methadone). I disagree. I've been lucky in that Suboxone has had very few if any side effects for me. I do not get high, I do not get tired even at higher doses, I have not found myself craving for my dose and have gone 3-4 days without it. I feel like myself, albeit a broken version of myself, while on Suboxone. That isn't Sub's fault, it's the scars I carry from active addiction. The greatest part about using Suboxone to assist in my recovery is I have the ability on the medication to recognize thoughts that come from my active addiction mind, not the clean sober mind I'm working towards. How is it that I'm not sober under those conditions?

My long term goals are obviously to stamp down my addiction to the point I can live my life without ever again resorting to using. A part of my plan does include slowly dropping my dose of Sub's and when ready jumping off but I have not even considered a date when I will do that. My plans to do what it takes to stay sober for life are set in stone. My plans to detox from Sub's, not so much. I became an active addict because of chronic pain, Suboxone does provide some relief for me. If I find my pain levels increasing substantially after titrating down on Sub's, I may very well decide to stay on the med, albeit at a lower dose. If I find myself going back into the behaviors that could lead to active addiction, I will definitely stay on Sub's. If my pain is at a reasonable level, I'm not falling back into active addiction behaviors and I'm doing well detoxing from Sub's, great! I will go off.

For me, sobriety is based on whether I'm shoving my DOC or any other full-opiod down my throat. Suboxone is one of the tools I use to give myself the best chance for not relapsing. If I remain on them for a year or 10 years, i still consider myself clean and sober.

As a side note, at the N/A meeting I mentioned earlier, I found myself becoming very sarcastic and laughing at some of the people there who were telling me I was not clean because of Suboxone. According to them Suboxone is a crutch and no different than if I was swallowing 50 Percocets a day. As they were lecturing me on this "fact" we were outside smoking cigarettes. When I brought up that tobacco was a drug and very much a crutch the excuses began to fly why it's OK to use tobacco but the medication that is greatly helping me in recovery is somehow wrong. It could very well be that I'm justifying my Suboxone use the same way some addicts justify using cigarettes, caffeine, even pot and still consider themselves "clean". If that is the case, so be it. Almost a year into my sobriety the benefits I am receiving from Suboxone far outweigh any negatives. I'm not using. I'm clean. I'm sober.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:41 pm 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Well said TammiB! And congratulations to you on your well earned sobriety!!!

This is such a touchy subject for some people, and I will never understand why. It all goes back to us being individuals,
with individual thoughts, and our own ideas, and opinions, of what clean and sober REALLY is.

I personally, don't even care what Webster has to say about the whole idea. I know what kind of person I was when I was
in active addiction. I know what kind of person I am now, on suboxone. I am clean and sober. No doubt in my mind.
My mind is the one that counts when it comes to MY life. Not to mention, there are some "clean and sober" people that
are not on sub, or any kind of maintenance, and they are just plain miserable. I don't want that kind of recovery. I
don't want that kind of LIFE!

I am in the same boat as TammiB. I have chronic pain. I may not be as bad off as some people, but I'm worse than others.
I do know that suboxone does provide a great deal of relief for me. It took a while to find that perfect dosing schedule
and measure, but by god, we found it!

Like others, suboxone has allowed me to stop focusing on pills. To stop focusing on how many I have, how long they will
last, when I will need more, where I will get them, and how I will pay for them. Then there is the whole process of actually
GETTING them. All of that time that was wasted doing such dangerous and selfish tasks, is now being spent on my son.
It is being spent on this forum. It is being spent with friends, and family, and the people that matter in my life. I spend time
with an addictions counselor, and with my doctor. I spend time taking my child for walks, and to parks, and to my
friends and families houses, so he can play with his cousins, and friends. My focus is 100% on my recovery and my child.
As it should be.

When I think back to how much drama was in my life, It makes me gag. LOL... I NEVER want to go back to that. I have no
drama in my life right now. The friends that I CHOOSE to have, and the company that I CHOOSE to keep, is positive,
uplifting, and inspiring. I no longer waste time listening to mindless complaining from people who will NEVER be happy,
and will never do a thing to changer their situation.

I have not been able to do any of these things or change any of my lifestyles for the better, because of will power alone.
I wish that I was that strong but I am not. I give a lot of the credit to suboxone. If me being a great mother, a great
daughter, and sister, and friend, and over all human being, makes me NOT CLEAN, AND NOT SOBER, than I guess I'm not
in your mind... My mind is clean and sober. I think sober thoughts. I think about recovery. I think
about other people. I don't judge other people and tell them that their choice for recovery is NOT CLEAN AND SOBER.
I worry about my own business. I take care of my responsibilities as well as my body. I respect others and myself.
I love others and myself. How is this not clean and sober again???

Some people suffer from a numbing of emotions and a blunting of their senses, so to speak, while on sub. I don't.
Last night I watched something so funny that I laughed until I had tears streaming down my face. MY friend that was
here, asked what was the matter and was freaking out, thinking I was upset. It wasn't until I could stop laughing
long enough to tell her that I was actually crying from laughing so hard, not because I was upset!! I feel sorry for
people that can't feel that intensely on sub. I'm glad that I can though.

I don't know that I will be on sub forever, but I am wide open to the idea. This life that I live...is GOOOOOD!!!!!
Why wouldn't I consider it (rhetorical)? I don't know what is in store for me a year from now, or 2 years from now.
But I do know that it includes being clean and sober. And that CAN BE with suboxone.

Great topic Romeo! Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!!!! Take Care~[/font]

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 Post subject: Whatever it takes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:09 pm 
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I didn't want to sound like a preachy a** so I thought I'd clarify - I am all for being on sub or methadone or whatever if that is the place you are at. I was just one who couldn't shake the need for opiates when I was on suboxone and methadone so I thought I'd try things with no opiates. So far so good, but I'm not over confident.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
Jimmy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Just to be clear, I was in no way saying that people on Suboxone are not clean. I firmly believe that you can be on Suboxone and be clean.

My question was more pointed at recovery....true recovery to be exact and whether it was possible to recover fully from an opiate addiction while being on an opiate. I understand that this may be a touchy subject, but I most certainly do not intend to offend or otherwise hurt anyone with this question.

To me, being clean and sober is one thing, being in recovery is another. Have you guys heard the term "dry drunk", that's an alcoholic who is clean and sober, but miserable as fuck all the time. They're clearly sober and clean, but IMO, they don't have recovery because they're miserable 24/7. They really haven't learned how to live without alcohol.

Goinstrong made that point exactly and I've met several of them through NA. These people have years and years of clean time, but they're the most miserable, selfish and immature people I've ever met. I clearly remember telling my friends in NA that if that's what recovery is, I want no part of it!! Truthfully, those people are a big reason I left NA because they were poison to the group and to me.

It's clear that just quitting one's DOC is no guarantee of recovery.

Anyways, back to my question, is true recovery possible while on Suboxone? Also, I'll be the first to admit that I probably wouldn't know true recovery if it walked up to me and smacked me in the face. I'm not a recovery expert, not by a long shot.

Maybe we need to define true recovery? Is true recovery being drug free AND learning to live a healthy lifestyle or is true recovery just learning to live a healthy lifestyle, whether on a narcotic or not or is true recovery something else entirely?

Again, I know these are tough questions and I absolutely do not mean to offend or hurt anyone by asking them.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 pm 
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It is my opinion that suboxone can be the first part of recovery for those that use it how it's intended to be. I turned my life around on sub just like Amber and others. I would never in a million years say that the time I spent of subxone was not true recovery. I held one job the entire time I was on it, that's like cray cray! I lived my life for the first time ever and was healthy inside and out. If that's not recovery, I don't know what is..

However, there are multiple layers of recovery and the subxone part was just one step for me. Now I'm ass deep in a new layer of my recovery and going from sub to nothing is just as new and exciting and weird as going from H to sub.

As long as you are bettering your life, taking steps forward, showing up for the people in your life and being accountable, it's ALL recovery.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:46 pm 
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That's a really good point tinydancer. I seem to have been looking at recovery as a destination, rather than the neverending process that it is.

Thanks so much to all who replied!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:19 pm 
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Romeo,

In no way did I find your question offensive or feel as if you were saying those of us on maintenance medications are something other than clean in our recovery. This is an important issue and one that needs to be discussed. It's bad enough when so many in the medical community believe, wrongly, that we are somehow still in active addiction because of maintenance meds. Throw into the mix other addicts who believe the same and it's obvious this conversation needs to be held and opinions need to be changed, or at least enlightened.

You asked what is full recovery. That's a question I don't think can be really answered. For some, full recovery is simply never taking another drug or drink in their lives, the classic dry drunk scenario you brought up. For others being clean simply means learning to live a productive life with abstinence. For others recovery means being clean while attending meetings, therapy and counseling to learn to live without their DOC and to reestablish relationships and trust with those they harmed during active addiction. Other people will spend the rest of their lives in therapy trying to learn every single part of their psyche that led them to use. I could go on and on but the basic point is "true" or "full" recovery is subjective.

For those who believe addiction is a disease, can "full" recovery ever be possible? Is a person fully recovered if the disease is in remission for life but not cured? For those who believe addiction is a disease combined with mental health issues, does full recovery come when the disease is in remission and the underlying mental conditions are resolved and/or controlled? For those who add a moral failing component into the mix, does remission combined with resolution of mental health issues in addition to living a long-term productive "moral" life equate to full recovery? The options are endless and honestly, do we really want a stock definition of what full recovery entails, aside from sobriety, that will put all addicts and all recoveries into the same box?

All of this goes back to your original question - can a person reach full recovery when on Suboxone? In my opinion the answer is absolutely yes they can, at least reaching their own definition of full recovery. Others may disagree they are fully recovered. Personally I don't know if I will ever reach full recovery simply because I have not wrapped my mind around what would entail full recovery for me. I also don't think I would ever want to feel as if I had fully recovered as I would fear that confidence could lead to fall back into addictive behaviors. For now I have to continue to think of myself as an addict to prevent myself from going back to being an active addict.

Some may disagree with me on this but I fall into the boat of those who believe addiction is a a disease first, combined with mental health issues and a smaller percentage of moral failing. Since I do not face the Suboxone fog so many people complain about, working through my mental health issues and working on regaining trust and living a moral life (no more lying as example) is possible. If and when I ever get to the point where I have figured out the why's and how's of addiction that is the closest I will probably ever feel to being fully recovered. I genuinely feel for those who are in the Sub fog as I can't imagine how difficult it would be to try to work through issues in that condition.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:40 am 
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Thanks for the response Tami, you can now ignore the PM I sent you talking about all of this! :D

I'm now thinking there is no such thing as true recovery. Recovery is recovery.

In addition to looking at recovery as a destination, I think I was also looking for some kind of subjective measurement I could take of an addict to determine if they were or were not truly in recovery....part of that comes from my black and white (addict) thinking and part of that comes from my analytical mind always wanting to measure, then be able to put things in neat little boxes.

I know this much, asking these questions and getting all the wonderful feedback from all the folks who posted here has done nothing but help me and my recovery......now if I could just measure my recovery and put it in a neat little box, then I'd be happy!!! LOL

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 Post subject: the heart of the matter
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:34 pm 
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The cinders bursting into flame, and that's whats going to happen, if I choose not to use sub, today. I freak if my pills get misplaced. Next week my daily dose is 0.8 mg, and after all this tapering the cinders are still there.
Yep I thought I'd fully recovered and was home free, after my 4 years stint on methadone, and I did'nt touch a thing for many years, working hard and loving life. The people I worked for loved my work and 20 Gs going into the bank each week, was pretty good too. But the cinders took to flame, and burnt the lot down.
I don't want to cover old ground again, but true recovery is something that has to involve forgiveness, for yourself and probably others. And for many addicts, myself included, that requires forgiveness for event's generally deemed unforgivable. Release from the past is essential for my recovery, but I'm not putting bets on it either.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:02 pm 
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I really liked Goingstrong's post and feel I'm in a similar situation and have the same outlook. Suboxone stopped my downfall and gave me stability, which is what I need most given my other health problems.

Several years ago, I was in a band, and one of my bandmates was the quintessential dry drunk (though his DOC was heroin). You could tell it was still on his mind, at least subconsciously. We ended up kicking him out of the band because he was so self-destructive. Like a lot of people I know in recovery, he abused caffeine as much as he could, as if it were speedball. I don't have that option 'cause caffeine's bad for Crohn's, and I know I'd be every bit the dry drunk. Suboxone turns off all of that, and I dread the day I ever have to stop.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Thankful we are on the road to recovery .... sub is a wolf in sheep clothing ... Don't feed it for a week and see how recovered you feel .... being clean should not be construed as not feeling dirty.... sub makes us feel and act sober .... I's an opiate replacement!!!
I needed to stop deceiving myself so I could get off the comfy sub chair on the side of that road and start walking it again.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:31 pm 
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I hear you Macboy.. you are right. The security we all have -while on subs- falls to the wayside when we are no longer on it. I guess looking at the bigger picture, though, the comfy sub chair is a whole lot better than dead in an alley somewhere. Plus you can actually work on your recovery while on sub, you cannot say that for any other drugs.


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 Post subject: Absolutely
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Well said TD .... no doubt it is an affective "stop the madness" chemical therapy. I would go as far to say a miracle drug. IMO ... its most effective quality is allowing an addict to know what it feels like to be somewhat normal. But thats where it ends for me. I just have a heartfelt problem with all those on this drug as maintenance for years at high doses. Those poor bastards, many of whom are really stuck in an addiction just as bad, who have no clue how much work is required to tapper and jump. All the kind people talking of how clean and sober at 4+ mg a day!
My heart goes out to em .... i wish more could be induced and maintained at a reasonable dosage.
anyway ... topic for another day.
I enjoy your comments TD ... Happy Thanksgiving ! ... sounds like both of us have much to be thankful for.


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Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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