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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:49 am 
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Hi its me again...fishy. [[[[Groans from the members]]]] After my failed jump I have been wracking my brain trying to come up with a more effective liquid taper to minimize the chances of me failing the jump again. I don't know why but I have become even more determined to try it again a different way. (I don't accept failure very well)

Here is what I have come up with:

4 days at .3mg (1.5mL)
4 days at .26mg (1.3mL)
4 days at .2mg (1mL)
4 days at .16mg (.8mL)
4 days at .1mg (.5mL)
3 days at .08mg (.4mL)
3 days at .06mg (.3mL)
3 days at .04mg (.2mL)
Taper complete. Done.
Total days: 29 day taper

My thinking here (correct me if I'm wrong) is that when buprenorphine is at levels this low (.3mg and below) it is most definitively nowhere near the ceiling, therefore it doesn't stay in the system very long, meaning maybe the half-life would be shorter? I don't have science to prove this, but judging from personal experience, it doesn't seem to stay with a person very long at low doses, possibly the reason for producing symptoms (or perceived symptoms of minor WD within 24+/- hours of the last dose.

My only concern is, would this schedule be so fast that a person would just feel the slight WD the entire taper, making not much more of a difference in comfort level both psychological/physical symptoms over the course of the 29 days? In other words, would this give the same effect as if one just jumped at .3mg?

When I take my .3mg it definitely holds me until the next day. My intent in doing this would be to get my brain/body weaned off almost all the medication in a fairly quick time without MOST all of the bad feelings I had during a straight jump from .3mg.

I am very interested to hear anyone's perspective on this, whether you've jumped or not, to get every angle. Most likely this will be my next angle of attack.

Tomorrow is my last day at .3mg according to this newly devised taper schedule.

PS. I'm not afraid to fall on my ass again and have to back out or revamp this plan either. I will learn all I can from my mistakes and the trial/error is what I believe will ultimately be the path to my success in tapering/final jump!

And who knows, maybe I'll have to become a coffee drinker to avoid the sluggishness I so despised from my last attempt at jumping ;)

Thanks guys!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:12 pm 
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Hey Fishy,

I think you are still pushing it a bit too fast. You need to allow yourself about a week in between each drop to allow your body to adjust to the new levels. If you don't, you will wind up suffering through the whole process and it will make your final step off more difficult. I know you want to do this as quickly as possible, but if don't take your time you may wind up right back where you started.

If you are determined to start tapering again so soon my suggestion would be to find the lowest dose you can tolerate right now and stay there for a week or two. Then slowly start working your way down. If you don't have the patience to do it that way then you might be better off just biting the bullet and jumping from where you are.

These are just my suggestions, others may feel differently. Either way, you have to do what works for you.

Q

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No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Fishy,

Do what feels right. Don't limit yourself to set days. You seem to have the luxury to be able to do that and I'd recommend it. The fact is, you seem determined to get off suboxone, so I think you won't really be so lenient that you'll just decided to stop tapering now that you've gotten so low and gone so far.

If you really want to stick to a set day / plan I'd change those 3's to 5's - and give yourself the leeway to say, hey I really don't want to reduce today, but I 100% will tomorrow, and add an extra day on to the process. Not a huge deal all things considered. Edit: or vice versa of course. I think it's personally worthwhile getting to those really low numbers seeing as the jump from higher and even skipping at higher doses was abysmal. In comparison, getting off at the lower doses wasn't even close to a comparison.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:42 pm 
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And no - I don't think it would give the same effect as jumping at .3. Jumping at .3 is relatively easier than jumping at 1MG, but the taper steps individually are small enough that honestly you'll know what you're in for each step of the way based on how you feel after each step down IMO. It's easy to think "well this step was so easy, and I feel normal I could probably jump" I nearly did what you did, and jumped at .25 or so but decided to stick it through.

On half lifes, yes I'm pretty sure that for me personally the suboxone doesn't last as long - but don't try to think about that. To put it into a positive context - and without scientific fact to back this up - lets say you can chop the half life down by half or more, that would mean less and less suboxone is built in your system, in theory shortening your pending jump misery. In the end, when I jumped, day 1 was so uneventful, I wasn't sure if it was going to get worse or what. Day 2, more of the same, day 3 - still more of the same, then it got better and better from there on out. The chills etc ended around my .25+ doses, and RLS really was at its worst at .5+. Looking back on it, I was scared that I'd feel like complete crap, but in the end, I'd been through worse already during the taper during those days I'd skipped. In essence, you now know what skipping feels like to some degree, expect it to be easier and it probably will be.

P.S. I've mentioned this a bunch of times already - but the L-Tyrosine really helps with the sluggishness, energy and not feeling like garbage. It won't eliminate lingering pain in your body, but mentally it will sharpen you up, and make you not feel like complete garbage. It's worth buying, and its cheap. You want to take the B6 with food, and then take the L-Tyro about 1+ hour later.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:55 pm 
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The half life of a drug is not at all related to the dose. The dose is irrelevant. Half of one dose is not different than half of another - HALF IS HALF. So the halflife does not increase or decrease because of dose.

Now that said, the therapeutic dose will be effected when the dose is lowered. I hope I'm explaining this well. What I'm trying to say is if it feels like a lower dose of Bup does not last as long as a higher dose, you are right. It doesn't. That has to do with therapeutic levels falling below your bodies current threshold. However the halflife is unchanged. It still takes the same amount if time for the dose of sub to reach 50% of its life. It's just that because the levels are lower you are ducking under the therapeutic level of you body sooner. That has nothing to do with the halflife changing.

So what you are feeling is real. It's just not caused by halflife.

I aggre with Q and the others. You still have an aggressive taper schedule. You are likely to both feel better and reach more success if you slow down more.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:42 pm 
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Ok cool...

Thanks so much Q for sticking with me through all this, I feel like a huge pain in the you know what! Thank you, you are very patient. :)

Yes, I agree the general consensus seems to be SLOW DOWN. I am going to have to take your advice, you guys actually know your stuff. So ive decided to just ditch the number of set days and then see how I feel as I go at each dose drop. Pretty sure that's what I said my original plan was but I have been all over the place trying (and failing) to get this thing right.


Thanks donh for clearing up the half life thing. Totally makes sense. Half is always half. Thank you, you're very smart:)

Thank you evolved for taking the time to share again your experiences with me here and in PM. You are very kind:)

It's nice to hear that the small doses below .3 are worth going through with. I am going to take your advice and get the b6 and l-tyro so that i am prepared when the time comes.

Today, I am surprisingly un-obsessed with the whole thing and I'm not really sure why. Last night I was formulating taper schedules and doing mg to ml math and going over and over what I should or should not do in my head...

Today is different though... This whole thing is a ride for sure. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.


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