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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:58 pm 
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I went to see a new Doctor Last Thursday. He ended up giving me a week worth of Suboxone. Gave me 7 8mg Tablets. I was already going through withdrawal when I took my first one. I was only at around 15-30 mg of Oxycodone a day when I stopped. I tried to quit cold turkey from oxycodone before, but just couldn't handle it. I was doing Oxycodone for about 3 months straight. Again, It was about 15-30 mg a day. After reading/ researching alot on the internet, I've came to realize that compared to some people, a 3 month span of 15-30 mg wasn't really that much in comparison to some of the stories I've read.

Anyhow I started out taking a whole 8mg tablet on Last Thursday... Within an hour I felt completley out of withdrawal, but extra sedated from the Suboxone. I've been sleeping way to much these past few days. I am down to 4 mg a day, but as soon as I take it, I tend to fall asleep about 2 hours afterwards....

My question is, Did the Doctor give me to much Suboxone? I told him about my drug use, and told me to take 8 mg a day, and split it up into 2 doses.

I'm really starting to feel confident that I want to be off Opiate's all together, Including Suboxone. What started out as a weekend habit, eventually turned into a once a day habit for about 3 months. I'm thinking that I'm on way to high of a dose as it is. I'm only going to take 2 mg tonight, and talk to the doctor tomorrow about tapering off.

If i quit cold turkey right now, Will I go through withdrawal, since I am on a somewhat high dosage of Suboxone? My biggest fear of quitting Opiates was going through withdrawl to begin with. I just felt I needed an aid instead of cold turkey, but I'm not fearing that I have a new problem and that my dosage is way to high for me...

I'm coming to you guys for help, because I've read some horror stories about doctors wanting there patients to be on Suboxone for a very long time. My whole goal was for it to help me go through withdrawal and not stay on it long...

Any advice would be great.... I didn't realize 8mg was such a high dosage. Again I've only been on it for 6 days, and I'm down to around 4 mgs. I also heard they have 2 mg Tablets?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:04 pm 
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You will go back into withdrawal once you stop the Suboxone. I can tell you this with certainty, because I'm going through it at the moment. I kicked a 4 year Vicodin addiction with Suboxone 3 weeks ago. I ran out of the Subs 2 days ago and am right back into withdrawals. The physical symptoms are much less severe than they were just before starting the Subs, but the mental symptoms are extremely intense. I would highly suggest continuing to take the Suboxone for as long as you can. Find a new doctor, if you feel he isn't taking your dosing concerns seriously. Or cut the dose yourself and see what happens. I was on 100mg/day of hydrocodone and ended up only needed 4mg of Suboxone/day to completely stave off all withdrawal symptoms. Good luck.

Ken


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:16 pm 
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So I've been clean from oxycodone for a week now. Almost exactly.. Been on Subs for 6 days now... Again i was using for about 3 months everyday. I'm starting to regret even going the doctor. Maybe I should of just sucked it up, and dealt with my withdrawal. I just feel like I completely opened up a new can of worms by starting Suboxone. I think I would of ok with taking 2 MG of suboxone to start with, but again My Doctor said take a whole 8 mg throughout the day. Again, I would take it and just feel tired and sleep.

Again, I might be overreacting but, I really do think he has started me on too high of a dosage... It consider it to be my fault, as I didn't research it enough before I went to the doctor. I was having such bad withdrawals I just needed some help...

I also am on an anti depressant( lexapro 10mg) and 2 different kind of benzos. I take klonopin and night for sleeping and Tranxene during the day, because It is less sedating..

How do you know I will go through withdrawal If I stop taking suboxone... I obviously want to get down to the lowest possible dosage I can. But can you go through withdrawal just from taking it 6 days?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:24 pm 
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Hi Scooter -

I think if you are willing to taper down on suboxone - you will be in control of how you feel the withdrawals.

Without a slow taper plan - regardless if you are on buprenorphine or other full agonist - there is no way to short change the withdrawals. It's a physical addiction. If you had withdrawl symptoms with oxy (like me) cold turkey - you will also have withdrawal symptoms cold turkey with suboxone. Due to the longer half life - you just won't hit them as fast - (say 36 hours or so likely).

If you spend some time in the forum - searching - you will see several places where people thought they could just take suboxone and stop - and just return to 'normal' thereby skipping withdrawal.

You can read their experiences. Physical dependency is just that - suboxone changes that to a medication that allows us no 'high' and removes the ability for us to abuse it - as it has a ceiling effect - that's why we chose suboxone, then a slow taper.

Don't know if this helps or not. Keep us posted!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm 
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I will keep you posted, and I'm so thankful I found this website. You guys are unbelievable, and take the time out of your day to support each other.

I understand that some people might need to be on Suboxone longer than others, for a number of different reasons.

someone might need to educate me... I don't want to be on a high dosage of anything. I'm already probably physically and mentally addicted to benzos. That will have to be dealt with in time as well. Right now My concern is being Opiate free.. That is my short term goal...

As far as Benzo's.... They saved my life, I ended up going back to school, and getting certified and landing a great job. My anxiety was so bad, that the thought of me sitting in a classroom scared me to death. I got Laid off from a great job, and broke up with a girlfriend, the one who I thought I was gonna Marry... At the time I was not using, but 4 months afterward's it became hard to find work, and started experimenting with pills. Again, What turned into a weekend fun habit, turned into an everyday, I don't want to go thru W/D habbit.....

Just want things to get back to normal, But I will keep yall updated on my progress..


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Hi Scooter,
Welcome to the Forum. You have come to the right place to find other people that have gone thru or are currently going thru the same thing you are!! I have something in common with you... That would be our DOC (Drug of Choice) Oxycodone!
Just to give you a bench mark for the Oxycodone vs. the Suboxone here is my story with the medications....
I was taking 300 - 350 mgs. of Oxycodone a day when I finally came clean with my Dr. Some of my meds where prescribed for back pain and others (most!!) where bought off the street... My habit had been at that level for sometime. My Suboxone treatment started in the Dr.s office (Subox Doc) after I had stoped using and put myself into moderate w/d's as directed by the Dr. My induction was 2mgs. every 1 1/2 hours for a total of about 12mgs. that first day. Dr. gave me a script for 12mgs / day for two days and told to come back the third day. I did so and told them I thought I needed a higher dose. He uped my dose to 16mgs. a day (my dose today a year later). as far as when to start the taper my doc said it will be up to me, him, and my therapist to come to that decision together...
I'm not sure why your induction wasn't done in the office? Also are you due to go back for another script of Suboxone? as far as the W/D's I can only guess but I would assume they will come back if you stop the Subox??? I hope some of my long winded rant gave you some insight? Please keep us posted on your progress whatever you choose to do....
Best of Luck in your Recovery

God Bless
TW


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Hello TWINPLY- Thank you for your insight....

I defiantly will keep you posted on my progress. I do see my doctor tomorrow, and will be explaining to him that I feel that the 8mg is to much. I guess I'm just worried about staying on Suboxone to long. I'm going to try to get the 2 mg tablets instead of the 8 tomorrow after I talk to the doctor. Again, Even after taking 4 MG I would basically get tired and fall asleep. Dont get me wrong ( the sleep was great ) considering before I started taking suboxone I pretty much went to bed scared that I would go through withdrawal the next day and not be able to get any pills. I was buying them from someone who was very iffy, and never really had the money to stock up, so just that mental thought of me not knowing I was going to have some for the next day kept me up at night...

Don't get me wrong, the Suboxone works great. My craving for oxycodone is basically gone. My friends that I use with think I already went through withdrawal and have been clean for about 2 weeks. They are respecting my space, which is a really good thing. They know I want no part of them doing it, or being around them while they are on them.. At the same time, I don't want them knowing that I went to a doctor and got Suboxone, because I know they will try to get some off me.. I truly don't want to be n Subxone for that long..

Anyhow I'm having a blast so far just reading this forum. It feels great knowing that I am not alone in this battle.

again, Thanks everyone for your input... It means alot!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:37 pm 
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My advice is to try and get off the subs as quickly as possible. Taper down and quit or you will be on them forever.

I have been off subutex/suboxone for almost a year after recovering from 3 years of heroin addiction. My gf and I went to the doctor at the same time and both got a 20mg/day dose coming off the same half gram H/day habit. I was on the subs for a couple of months and just couldn't quit for anything. I got so sick of the side effects that I went back to H for a few weeks, which of course got out of hand right away...well when I went back on the subs I used them for about 2-3 weeks starting at a 16mg dose tapering down to 2mg/day over the 2 week period then quit. I have been completely opiate free since. The gf still takes the subs every day and it has been a year.

The wd coming off the subs is so so so much easier than coming off the hard opiates...but if you are on them too long than you forget that. When you are on the street drugs you get used to going in and out of withdrawal because they don't last as long and usually there are supply issues. You build up a kind of strength for coping with the wd. Going on subs for too long takes away that ability to cope.

Lots of people that I know have used subs to kick their opiate habit. I go to meetings and I was in the scene so long that I know lots of them. Everyone that I have met that took subs for more than a couple of weeks is still on them. I met someone the other day that has been on them for 4 years. The only people that I have ever met that were able to get off the subs only took them for a short time. And I don't want to be that crazy conspiracy theory guy, but I can see how there is an incentive for doctors to put people on subs and then kind of lose interest in helping them get off them...Lots of doctors charge 150-200/month for a 15minute visit so they can write you a script. I run my own business and I can tell you that I would love to have a bunch of people on a plan like that!!

This is just my theory. I am trolling on here looking for ideas on how the gf can quit the subs...its costing us $500 a month for her to stay on them and that's a lot of money to us right now. I wish I could help her more...she hates taking them, they are expensive...it's just all around a bad scene.

You are lucky that you wised up when you did. A 3 month habit using only 15-30mg of OC a day...well I'll just say that it could be a lot worse for you. If you keep that up though you know where it will lead. You'll be counting in years instead of months and you will be taking 10 or 20 times that amount every day.

I wish you the best of luck. Getting over my opiate addiction has been the hardest...absolutely the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with in my life. Nothing compares.

Best advice I can give though is to find an NA group. I am not religious and I am not really all about the 12 steps or anything, but talking with people that are struggling with the same issues that you are...getting that kind of companionship, support, and friendship is the best thing you can do. I resisted doing that for a long time and I regret it.

Good luck. Take care of yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Hey, this is Graced4....come on over and read our thread....about stopping suboxone with little to NO withdrawals.
Sometimes the only way out...is through. And we can get through this together.

Take care tonight....Amber :D


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:48 am 
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Hey Scooter,


I'm glad you decided to come post on here.. it took me a while to muster up the courage to do it, but was sure glad I did. Talking about our addictions and accepting what path we chose is the quickest way to recover.

Also just accept what you have a head of you, realize you will feel a certain way, but keep reminding your self that it's not permanent. That's the hardest thing to do, sometimes you just plain forget what reality is.

I'd suggest use subs until you have no more urge to abuse opiates and or get your fix. Once you have come to that road, begin tapering.

And honestly with your low dose of abuse and time frame I think you could use a fairly aggressive detox process using tapering and doing the liquid method.

I've written some posts about it currently and Diary of a Quitter has written a great post which is stuck to the top of quitting sub forum.

I have a lot of good ideas on how to make your batch of liquid sub and different dosing. For people who have long term opiate abuse, they need a long slow taper, but for a person like yourself a quick 12 day or so taper could and will result in a reduced WD. DO NOT GET ME WRONG (whoa caps got stuck I think).. you will have withdrawals, but way less and way intense if you just went cold turkey. The brain is a quick learner and will recover, it just needs time.. hell I have anxiety through out the day, but im a lower dose of sub then ever.. .25 MG... but im the road out. So I just welcome axniety as a way as a greeting card from my chest saying HEY YOU"RE ALMOST OUTTA THERE... Monkey off the shoulder!

Anyways let me know and I will help as much as I can!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:34 pm 
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just an update for who ever read my topic... I'm down to about 1 mg of Sub.... I plan on taking the smallest bit on Wednesday night, and that completely stopping... I've been working out the last week or so and already lost about 5 pounds.. def feeling alot better. I did not have any problem starting on 8 mg and going down to 1... I have a job interview tomorrow, and things are looking better right now. I'm starting to have a more positive outlook on things, and just feel better about my self, knowing I'm not doing any drugs.... anyhoo this is a short term use for suboxone. It will be 3 weeks this coming thursday... I will let everyone know how i feel after I stop taking Subs.. I'm hoping I can go thru the least amount of WD possible... Thanks again everyone, This forum is great!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:41 pm 
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As always, LatheDude as great advice.


As far as suboxone w/d, well I would think that with its long half life and the fact that it builds up in your body after each dose, that it could be a long w/d (compared to most other agoinsts). I do not think it would be as severe/intense because of being drawn out over a period of time. Short acting opiates can be very severe, 'quick' (7-14 days for acute symptoms) w/d.

A while back, I had to switch sub doctors. I went a total of just over 6 days with out any sub. I didn't start to really enter w/d untill day 3. But that was just me. I know the many times I w/d from half gram or more of oxycodone it was so intense and it crippled me. Days 2-5 were always brutal. It got a bit better after that and lasted, for ME, about 11-14 days (oxycodone, or H w/d). I never made it past 3 weeks with out opiates because of my scripts (and other reasons....) being once a month obviously, for Schedule II.

My choice is to stay on Suboxone (bupe, whichever) for as long as I need. It has been 8 months so far and I just hope that I can say its been longer as I continue to work on my recovery. I hope to stay in recovery and on subs for as long as I need....and at this time I do not plan to get off subs. I have respect to those who wish to taper quickly. That is YOUR choice. Also, I am really glad that you got down to 1mg. Maybe when you decide to come off you can try taking the 1mg every other day or ever couple of days at the end to minimize your w/d from sub. Also, if you could dose less than 1mg that would help greatly to minimize the w/d symptoms. I have read online (sorry, no direct links....all from MY memory) that 0.2 - 0.4 mg (or 0.6, something around there) is equal to 10 mg of morphine. That is like 200-400 MICROgrams of buprenorphine (active drug in Suboxone) producing similar analgesia [sp] (pain killing effects) to 10 MILLIgrams of morphine. I think Dr. Junig has a much better way of comparing the stregnth, but I cannot quote it at the moment. Please, correct me if I am wrong, but that is to my understanding. I am not trying to spread any bad info or mislead anyone.

I have much more to say but didn't want to get too far off subject. Best of luck to ya scooter, and if you need anything please just ask. We are here to support you whatever you decide to do. Also, I am NOT an expert or doctor and you should always ask your doctor before you listen to online advice (unless you know you can trust it). MANY give great advice and many are just not as educated on the subject. Like I said, I am not an expert....just speaking from experience and from what I have learned. Take that for whats it worth. But either way I hope everything works out for you and I hope you do continue to share your story. Take Care!!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:51 pm 
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the only thing i truly don't like is that, its nearly impossible to get your dosage right.. I mean I only have a half of a 8mg left.. I basically have to break off crumbs, and It's just hard to know how much your actually taking? any advice or tips? again I just have 1/2 of a 8mb left...... again thanks for your input... I'm dreading even the slightest thought of going through withdrawal, but o well..... it's gonna happen sooner or later...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:49 am 
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Everyone pretty much covered your questions on dosing and withdrawal questions. I am going to throw in something else for you to think about, and as my title suggests, I am a therapist, a very good one, and want to give you some things to mull over.... The great majority of people addicted to opiates start out the same way. a pill here or there, a few on the weekend, feels great, OK, add in Wednesday nights, still have it under control, Mondays and Fridays too... and before you, me, WE know it, we are taking them every day having a back and forth battle within ourselves. Feel guilty and shitty when we dont have them, counting pills, feeling withdrawal, then we take one (or 2 or 3) and suddenly feel better and the problem can go away "tomorrow". I think you are putting alot of thought and energy into the details. I firmly believe there is a difference between details and issues. most people focus on the details in their lives, not the issues, which is like chasing after ants with a can of Raid, instead of finding the colony and killing the queen so the ants go away for good.
Why did you start taking them? How did those reasons change over time? Everybody needs to find their own path, learn their own way. The strong feeling of I want to be off all opiates is there at some point in all of us. In a way, its chasing the dragon of another sort. I was on sub for 18 days about 8 months ago. Same mentalty, my habit was never that bad, no legal troubles, and I tapered off the subs, withdrawals were not that bad, and a month later came across some Tramadol, had the standard "Ill take just one and it will be fine...", and wound up back on the oxycodone, though not as much. This time, I have made the decision to stay on the subutex indefinitely. I dont mind. there is a function behind every behavior, and people do not do things for no reason. the back and forth torturing yourself about what you are dependent on, what you want (to be opiate free) is sometimes not realistic. I could say I would like to not be dependent on money, but I AM because that is how life works. I could say I WANT to spend my retirement on a Maserati, but right now i CANNOT. perhaps instead of focusing on controlling the details, take a look at the issues. has your brain been altered enough that you cannot stay opiate free? you may need to learn for yourself a time or two before you know. why are you using? boredom? stress? fun? anything other than pain is for the wrong reason, but you will figure out your own lessons soon enough. I am glad I took a good look at myself and learned sooner than later, made my decision and now can truly not think about relapse again. Hope this helped on some level.. have a great day!

M


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:07 pm 
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hey mwflorida, thanks for the advice, and taking the time to respond... I completely agree with what you said... Thank you for your very good advice...

I'm completely aware of where all of my problems come from. Normally, It's just easier to say, hey lets take a pill anytime something happens. My level of coping with these right now is horrible. I've been on benzos and anti depressants for a few years now for social anxiety and general anixety, so in a moment's notice of anxiety triggers that come it's so much easier to take a benzo, use that as a comfort zone to deal with anxiety...

however, the opiate problem is a whole different issue. Yes I do want to completely off opiates. And yes, I am fully aware of how easy it is to take a pill and go relapse. I do realize my risk of relapsing is pretty high If I've only been on subs a very short period of time. Again at this point, I'm willing to take that risk..


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