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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:09 pm 
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Oh, I'd never give ANY human medication to my pets.
My dog w/ cancer gets Buprenex, .3 mg/ml, and he's dosed at .2 ml per 12 hrs = .06 mg. A generic Subutex would be more than 100x too much!
Also, he gets it as an injection.
He's well-trained, but I'm pretty sure asking him to hold the Subutex under his tongue or swish it around his cheeks would be a lost cause.

But I agree, nobody should be giving ANY human medication to a cat or dog - a single human dose of tylenol can kill a cat and a single dose of aspirin can blow out their kidneys.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:27 pm 
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So, I'm really unsure whether I'm addicted or just dependent. On the one hand, I've never taken more than prescribed (I've actually taken much LESS than prescribed which is why I have such a huge stockpile of pain meds), but I've been prescribed A LOT. The addiction doctor told me that 60 mg of morphine a day is now considered a 'high dose' and I was prescribed more than 800 (if you add the immediate release pills for breakthrough pain, I was prescribed over 1000mg of morphine per day).
I wasn't taking extra pills, but maybe that's b/c I was 'supposed to' be taking so many?
I didn't take my pills early, but I was definitely watching the clock sometimes and counting the minutes until my next dose.
I was taking them to relieve pain, but I'm not really all that sure that they were HELPING. I know I feel terrible when I stop, but I can't really remember what I felt like before I started.

If I'm dependent, but not addicted, that means I can slowly wean off buprenorphine and not have an issue - but if I'm addicted, then I should stay on it forever. Is that the basic point?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:56 am 
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Heres how I see it Knock,
If your "just" dependent , them why didnt we just taper off our pills? That just never happens unless we are turely just dependent.
Time served on these powerful opiates changes the brain. Years of useing these brings on addiction. We can't stop.

But uno, you never really know untill you try to taper off and stop. Can you do that? Ive asked myself many times this question.
It takes so much to break free and "be off everything". Is this the goal? Is it safe? We take many medication s in this country to improve our lives. Many. It should be no different with us. Those with an opiate problem.

Thats my take ..
How are you feeling Knock? Ya feel stable now.?

Razor..


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:59 pm 
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I also think if u have to question if ur an addict, then there's a reason ur questioning it. That's just a thought :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:48 pm 
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I was able to successfully (without too much difficulty) taper from 800 to 200 on MS Contin. I couldn't taper lower than 200/day b/c my smallest pills were 100 mg (they lasted 12 hrs so had to be taken 2x/daily) and cutting them broke their time release. I'm pretty sure that if I had some 15mg or 30 mg MS Contins, I could've tapered to zero, but the jump from 200 was just too miserable.

But that said - I never was able to try such a taper b/c I couldn't afford to keep seeing my pain doc without insurance. I found an addiction doctor who treats for free, and she said it was better to switch to bupe than keep tapering off MS Contin. So who knows?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:38 pm 
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I don't think that every pain patient becomes an addict. However, any patient on opiates will develop a tolerance to them. That doesn't make you an addict. If you were able to taper MS Contin, it's a good sign that you are not addicted.

I think you will do just fine tapering the buprenorphine. Just go slowly. If you are using buprenorphine for pain I'm sure that your doctor mentioned how to get the best analgesic effect from the medication. The doctor should have told you about staggering your dose throughout the day.

If any part of you wants to get high off your medication, that's a very good indication that you've crossed the line into addiction.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:48 am 
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Thank you Amy.

I don't think I've gotten high off them. I've occasionally taken too much (this was a problem with the 1200 mcg fentanyl lollipops - b/c I never needed the whole lollipop, and there's a time-lag between use and effect, it was hard to know exactly when I'd absorbed enough. Sometimes I'd think I'd taken the right amount and it would hit me 10 mins later, 'boy, that was too much!'), but the effect was never pleasant - it was a lot of nausea, and staggering around like I was drunk, then passing out asleep. Closer to dysphoric than euphoric. It always made me glad the lollies wore off quickly! (I did get better at titrating transbuccal fentanyl over time)

I've been able to taper morphine to zero in the past - my real problem this time was the lack of smaller pills. Still, I think bupe is a great medicine and bc my pain is so well controlled (better than on 800 of morphine a day!) and my mood is really, really good, I'm not in any rush to taper. My doc says it's better to wait a few weeks before starting another taper (since I tapered 800 to 200, then 200 to 16 mg bupe. My medical situation is kinda fucked right now, so tapering bupe isn't a huge priority).

My doc currently has me at 4 mg 4x/day, but she said we might be able to eventually do 8 twice a day. But it's easier to deal with smaller amounts of the bupe dissolving more frequently. 16 mg in one dose would take forever to melt, my mouth would fill up with saliva, and the taste would be awful.

I wouldn't say that I'm OPPOSED to getting high from my meds - it's just that they've never had that effect, so it's hard to want something that you're not sure is even possible.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Please trust me when I disagree that you would want to get high from your meds. It would make you addicted. You are lucky that when you take too much you have a dysphoric rather than a euphoric reaction. Opioid medication does not seem to click with your brain the same way it clicks with mine and most other members here. If it did, the pleasure/reward circuits in your brain would quickly start to take over and overshadow the frontal cortex which is responsible for rational, inhibitory behavior. You would lose your ability to stop taking more and more opioids, running out of your medication and having to steal it or buy more off a dealer. This is the life of an opiate addict. You will do more and more despicable things to get your high and keep from getting "dope sick".

The pleasure/reward circuits that activate in the brain are from the more primitive parts of our brain. Their function is to keep us alive. Anything that makes a person feel good, like food, sex, being nice and warm when it's chilly, etc. activates this system. The things that keep us alive and well are part of this primitive circuit. The unfortunate thing about opioids is that they hijack that reward system so that the brain's priority is wanting the opioids over food and sleep and loved ones. And there are other actions in the brain caused by addiction that blocks our ability to access the frontal cortex.

Definitely not the best thing to wish for. :)

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Hey mouse,

Interesting conversation between you and Amy, who knows quite a lot. What makes it so interesting beyond that is you seem very self aware and honest. Of course only you can answer the question as to whether you're an addict. In some cases I think the issue is almost academic. Addict or dependent, some of the same problems apply. That you don't feel euphoria to me would indicate that you're wired differently than most addicts, which Amy points out.

I'm assuming you're feeling much better, dope-sick wise. As someone who also
suffers from chronic pain, it was
with much worry and ambivalence that I switched to bupe. So far, I've been able to live with my pain reasonably well. It's mostly the psychological stuff around the pain that's hard to deal with so far. It's depressing to be in pain, and often hard to accept as the norm in my life.I have to fight against feelings
of shame that I'm not as healthy as others. OTOH, I'm still quite a strong, fit person, so it's as if I've two images of myself that re constantly fighting it out.

All that said, I absolutely made the right decision for myself. I'm far better off despite these ancillary issues, which after all are part of life. Or part of my life anyway at this moment...


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