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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:19 pm 
WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #29

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

This bulletin was written by the World Service Board of Trustees in 1996. It represents the views of the board at the time of writing.

Not all of us come to our first NA meeting drug free. Some of us were uncertain about whether recovery was possible for us and initially came to meetings while still using.

Others came to their first meetings on drug replacement programs such as methadone and found it frightening to consider becoming abstinent.

One of the first things we heard was that NA is a program of complete abstinence and "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop using." Some of us, upon hearing these statements, may have felt that we were not welcome at NA meetings until we were clean. But NA members reassured us that this was not the case and we were encouraged to "keep coming back." We were told that through listening to the experience, strength, and hope of other recovering addicts that we too could find freedom from active addiction if we did what they did.

Many of our members, however, have expressed concern about individuals on drug replacement programs. Questions come up regarding such individuals' membership status, ability to share at meetings, lead meetings, or become trusted servants on any level. "Are these members clean?" they ask. "Can one really be a 'member' and still be using?"

Perhaps by answering the most important question first—the issue of membership—we can establish a context by which to approach this issue. Tradition Three says that the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. There are no exceptions to this. Desire itself establishes membership; nothing else matters, not even abstinence. It is up to the individual, no one else, to determine membership. Therefore, someone who is using and who has a desire to stop using, can be a member of NA.

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups' purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous.

It may be argued that a group's autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

Many groups have developed guidelines to ensure that an atmosphere of recovery is
maintained in their meetings. The following points are usually included:

Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting.
Abiding by our fellowship's suggested clean time requirements for service positions.
Seeking meeting leaders, chairpersons, or speakers who help further our primary purpose of carrying the message to the addict who still suffers.
We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That's our program; it's what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.
Our fellowship must be mindful of what kind of message we are carrying if a still-using addict leads a meeting, or becomes a trusted servant. We believe that under these circumstances we would not be carrying the Narcotics Anonymous message of recovery. Permissiveness in this area is not consistent with our traditions. We believe our position on this issue reinforces our recovery, protects our meetings, and supports addicts in striving for total abstinence.
Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.

I would include a link, but I cannot until I have been a member longer.

How can anyone be on Suboxone and in NA? People in the rooms used to tell me I could, but obviously the powers that be do not agree.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:47 pm 
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This is a real shame, I've spent the last 3 years in the so called "recovery capital" of america. Where there are more Half-way houses and organized 12-step meetings than anywhere else in america....well actually for the world for that matter.

With that in mind, you can only guess how many "old timers" there are, who stand out against suboxone.

I used to attend 3-5 AA / NA meetings a week and ultimately would still relapse! Never getting more than a year of sobriety.

It wasn't until I got on suboxone that I was able to achieve a good length of sobriety and start to clean the mess of my life up.

I still go to meetings, no where near as many, maybe once a week. I never dare mention that I'm on suboxone for fear of retribution.

I understand their basic level reasoning - that is you're not treating the underlying issues (which the 12 steps may or may not do.)
But it needs to be made clear to the higher ups at the 12-step places, that methadone is not similar to suboxone!

Their attitude towards people who struggle with addiction and use suboxone to help turns me off towards the rooms more and more with every story I read. Which is a shame, because they can really help at times.


Hope I'm not off base here :/


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:45 pm 
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I don't think you're off base at all. I don't have personal experience because I've never been to an AA/NA meeting, but there have been plenty of people here that have expressed their discomfort with "the rooms" for the exact same reasons. In fact, here is a thread from our "Twelve Step Programs" section that talks about the same issues:

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7031

This is only one of several similar threads in that section. By the way, welcome to the forum!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:06 pm 
It's because it's NOT soberity. And it's moronic to think using subs is. At least NA has it riight. WHy don't you listen


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:55 pm 
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chaimeragiest wrote:
It's because it's NOT soberity. And it's moronic to think using subs is. At least NA has it riight. WHy don't you listen




This member, is no longer an active member. I was just going to "delete" the post, but maybe having MORE than one reason
for the de-activation, is ALWAYS a good thing

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:21 pm 
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i have been through AA/NA/o/e/A/G/A. there is only one thing any one would want the most out of any public meeting esp- AA/NA. 24/7 trust and true leadership. not the kind that keeps bouncing back and forth like a yo/yo.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:40 pm 
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i'm just trying to say that there is 95 % mistake's in the meetings no know what i mean and how can any one and the new comer have all the trust they very much need in that.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:53 pm 
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sorry i can't put every thing in one post. but why should AA/NA be putting soboxone in it's place when they can't even recover from the thing that got all of us here in the first place. i think some body should right a new book called exp't the meds that
may help the impossible and walk the faith believing we have to some times still take medicine.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:57 am 
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As a AA member I would like to clarify something that is clearly not understood in this thread. AA is a completely separate entity from NA. There is no relationship whatsoever between the two, except that they both choose the 12 steps as the foundation for a recovery program. AA has it's own set of views on the matter of drugs, legal/prescribed or otherwise. There is NO literature in common between the two organizations. The subject of this post should be changed from "12 step" to "Narcotics Anonymous" asap. I see lots of terms lumped together in here which indicates lack of familiarity with the respective organizations: "AA/NA", "12 step groups", etc. as if it's it's all the same. This is very much not the case.

As a member, I am not a spokesman and do not represent AA as a whole. However, I have been a member for over 20 years and am of the sort that actually reads and studies the literature, in depth, as opposed to mistaking the group's members various opinions as gospel, another very common mistake that is also cropping up in this thread.

Here is AA's opinion on drugs: there isn't one. It's a program of abstinence for alcohol, specifically. A lot of members, perhaps even the majority, are unaware of this fact, but it is a fact nonetheless. And in contrast to the N/A literature posted here, each AA group has an extreme degree of autonomy and can decide for themselves who may share, lead meetings, hold positions of accountability, etc. I was the secretary of a large AA group for a year recently, on Sub the whole time, and I thought I did a damn fine job. One of my responsibilities was to choose leaders for the meetings, and fortunately our particular format has no proscriptions against anyone sharing or leading, provided they have a desire to stop drinking.

I would offer two suggestions: first, arm yourself with knowledge. Study the literature and decide if either group is right for you. The secondary benefit of this is that you can now discern between individual opinion and what the Program really is. Secondly, if you are not made to feel comfortable in a particular meeting, move on and find another one. They each have their own very distinct character. If you run into a meeting full of "old timers" condemning your drug use, as one poster seems to have, if it's AA you can laugh at them in the sad knowledge that, even after all this time, they still haven't read their own literature. Then you can go find a young people's meeting (or LGBT, or Spanish speaking, or Men's stag, or discussion, or speaker, or lotto, or volunteer, burning desire, dump meeting, etc etc etc etc) where you feel comfortable. Best of luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Thank you for spelling out some differences between AA and NA. What you say makes sense, because many people have expressed here that they find AA meetings more helpful than NA meetings.

Thanks for the advice and the suggestions!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:35 am 
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I have been a member of AA and NA for 7 or more years. I have over 5 years clean now. Yes I am on sub and NO I do NOT tell people in meetings. I do share with people who I trust, people who matter in my life including a sponsor. I have allowed NA "Nazis" as they refer to them here, to bully me out of the rooms. I have seen many addicts come into their first meeting raise their hands to share (which is hard to do) and they are so happy they have put a few days/weeks together then they say suboxone and they were told "you are not clean, you need to shut up (yes been told to shut up by a member who claims to be spiritual) and talk to someone after the meeting". I have seen those people walk out and who know where they go. NA was created because AA told us addicts we didnt belong, to have NA shun their own,it kills me. I understand the bulletin and if NA says free from all mind/mood altering substances then shouldnt they include ALL of them then? caffeine, nicotine. They also just dont know about suboxone and their reasoning about why a person on suboxone shouldnt be able to share at a meeting is "they are nodding out drooling on themselves" or "they are selling them in the parking lot" They see people and assume, sometimes the people nodding out are on meds for their mental health that they need in order to be sane, maybe they need adjustments?
I thought the saying was "your clean when YOU say you are"? I personally feel its an outside issue and something to be between the person, their higher power and their doctor. I have seen way too may people who want to be part of NA so bad, they get off sub because their sponsor told them to and they relapse or even die. I also feel if someone wants to be part of the homegroup or active in NA with committees ect, they most likely are not nodding out or "high", it wouldnt even be know they were on anything but because they disclosed they were they get told they are not clean. I also know people who need pain meds for cancer, or some other medical condition and these people are considered clean in NA's eyes, one even shared how she was so "messed up and vomited all over herself, got pulled over by police, and she was the chair of area. This was years ago and it just blew me away that here she is admitting she was over medicated and she is allowed to hold a high up position? But then someone who takes a med that you cannot get high once taken as prescribed after the induction period and she cannot share at a meeting?
I allowed these NA member's to make me feel poorly and I stopped going, NA saved my life, along with my medication, but I felt I no longer belonged. I did continue to go to AA and I held a huge resentment towards NA. Eventually after talking with others and getting some time I felt strong enough to return to NA and help the others who are in the same position as I was. I hope they can also remain strong and continue working their program and a sponsor. I do not share I am on sub, I also dont agree that it should be discussed in a meeting. I do try to go up to new memebers who share and let them know my experience and that their are some who are ANTI sub or methadone and they will make a fuss. I dont tell them not to share that they are on it but I suggest that it not be shared what meds they are on at all and why I say that.
This is all my experience and I share because I just feel suboxone and NA are both life saving and if it can help one other addict then I am happy. I am one who learned the hard way getting on sub does NOT cure my disease, I had to do the work. I thought oh taking this will make my life better, well without changing things when I hit the ceiling effect and sub was not making me high, well then I was a mess. It took me many relapses to learn a pill will not fix me. Drugs are a symptom of my disease they are not the problem, I am the issue and need to look at that. I feel blessed that I had a doctor who I could be honest with and I was able to remain a patient and get into a rehab where I stayed for 8 months. I then learned the skills I needed along with learning to take my meds as prescribed. It was hard when I first was prescribed sub to be given 30 days worth and that time I was on 3-8mg a day, yeah I was not responsible, I didnt know how to take a pill as it said on the bottle, I once took 10 of them and I still did not get high....another reason I like sub that ceiling effect! It took me some time to learn life. It is hard. simple, yet hard. I have this amazing life today one I never would have believed if you told me 6 years ago you will be here in 6 years, I would have laughed and never believed it. I credit the medication, NA and AA, my doc, many many women, my family, so many different things got me where I am today. It is possible to be happy and a productive member of society. I am still on sub I have tapered more than half the dose I still havent wrapped my brain around coming off it, but for today I dont have to. I never thought I could taper down at all, I have faith.
Hope you all have a wonderful 2013!
Thank you Dr J for this site! I use it often and recommend it to many! Thank you to all who share on here it helps!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Good post Ks. I've lived most of what you're saying. There are some things we can not change. Lol. However I have gotten so much from those rooms too. I'm 54, have 2 years clean as of Monday the 14th.(congrats Amber on 21)and have tapered down to 6mgs from 16the last 6 months. Do I have to tell on myself? No only to my sponsor and a few friends. Word does get out though. The thing is for me is I try to help others an not worry about those who would put me down. I'm the oldest newcomer in our fellowship here. None of those 'kids' have run up on me. I hope those on sub will give there local fellowships a try. I wouldn't have gotten this far without them, my clinic or this great forum. I've learned Sooo much here. I feel I have a very balanced recovery in place. Again thanks to some of my heros here. And yes I picked up the black recovery tag. It's my recovery.... Razor


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:16 pm 
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THE ONLY REQUIREMENT IS A DESIRE TO STOP USING. Stop focusing on the differences and focus on the similarities. Just keep it to yourself until the programs evolve. It's not a White House Security Clearance for God's sake. Just enjoy the many many benefits that a group of Recovering Addicts has to offer. And Give Yourself A Break!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:11 am 
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razor53 wrote:
Good post Ks. I've lived most of what you're saying. There are some things we can not change. Lol. However I have gotten so much from those rooms too. I'm 54, have 2 years clean as of Monday the 14th.(congrats Amber on 21)and have tapered down to 6mgs from 16the last 6 months. Do I have to tell on myself? No only to my sponsor and a few friends. Word does get out though. The thing is for me is I try to help others an not worry about those who would put me down. I'm the oldest newcomer in our fellowship here. None of those 'kids' have run up on me. I hope those on sub will give there local fellowships a try. I wouldn't have gotten this far without them, my clinic or this great forum. I've learned Sooo much here. I feel I have a very balanced recovery in place. Again thanks to some of my heros here. And yes I picked up the black recovery tag. It's my recovery.... Razor



:wink:
thanks!!

and YOU TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
two years,,,, WOW.
all I can say.

I'm right behind ya though..... April will be 24 months, Yes IF I make it, cuz I too, only plan one day at a time.
hey, at least I think of the WHOLE DAY now, and not just the next 15 or 30 mins, like I HAD TO those first
few months..... wowsa,
those were some tougher days.
Anyways,
just wanted to say thanks, and CONGRATS to you,
great job getting your dose down, too
Im at 12mg, from 24mg, around six months ago....
I went to 8mg, I was on 8mg for a month, six weeks maybe.
but it was too much.
I just started thinking about things, WAY TOO MUCH
and 12mg, that doesn't happen, so Im good with it.

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK

and thank you everyone, for ALL the clarification in this thread, I think it was LONG OVERDUE.
:wink:

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hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:50 pm 
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While I did my 90 in 90 when I first started getting clean last year, this is the exact reason I no longer go to meetings.

I got a lot out of going, don't get it twisted. I think everyone trying to get clean should do their 90 in 90. But the fact that judgement was being passed on me for choosing the BEST ROUTE for my recovery, was ludicrous.

Especially when you consider that these people are in the rooms with you: who the heck are they to be judging you? That hypocrisy got to me. The rooms are non-judgemental UNLESS you're taking suboxone/methadone. And then, even if you have more "time" since you last used dope than the next guy, they still look at him as if he's better.

At least SOME of the rooms around here. Not all, but then again I also went to an NA meeting where the intro speaker spent their ENTIRE TIME preaching about the evils of methadone/suboxone.

Plus let us not forget, it is generally accepted that you have statistically the best shot at remaining "clean" by utilizing a combination of 12 step, outpatient/group/one on one therapy, and medication assisted treatment. Statistically you give yourself the greatest shot by doing all 3 of those things. So how anyone can knock on someone for giving themselves the best chance is insane.

So yeah, exactly why I no longer go. I did what I had to do to improve my quality of life. I no longer chase opioids, I no longer do cocaine, I no longer smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, or even drink soda! I no longer lie, cheat and steal to feed my habit. I may be on suboxone, and I may smoke some weed from time to time, but I am also in school, doing well, almost off my suboxone.

If the only reason you're not relapsing is because you go to NA, what happens if you miss a meeting? What the fuck does that number (days clean) matter if you still spend every second wishing you were high and obsessing over something you cannot do?

It should be about quality of life and life improvement more than how many "days" you have. And that is exactly why I no longer attend.

Once again though, in spite of my current position, I think it should be mandatory for anyone trying to get clean to do a 90 in 90. It helped me so much during that 3 month span its unbelievable, and I took a lot from there. You don't have to stay forever, but I strongly advise anyone to do at least that much. I mean after all, if you cannot bring yourself to sit in a chair for an hour a day for 3 months, how in gods name can you expect yourself to do whatever it takes to stay clean? Its a good measuring stick in my humble opinion.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Even though i still go to meetings....i agree with you beyond measure!

You made my day. Twice. Lol.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:39 pm 
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I had really bad AA/NA experiences ....we were in a long term program and had to go..... and the old timers there we just walk around with this a arrogant it was unbelievable......they thought thry were kings.....they actually yelled at people who kept relapsing .....really made him feel like a piece of shit......

Plus the box in therapy is relatively new....... it works for me I'm not on suboxin I use..... and I use intravenous Heroin so this is a way better option.... been on subs for like seven years..... usually 8 milligrams a day...... when I used to go less than that some days I'd skip my dose and still wind up getting high.... although I haven't done that in almost two years..... so I don't care what anybody says subs are necessary for me.... I'm a 12 year off n on heroin addict.... intravenous...... subs for me was a complete life saver


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:05 pm 
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I'm sorry that you didn't like it, but there has got to be more to the story when a guy that takes suboxone every day and reads the name every day still spells it suboxin. Just saying.


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pat_d wrote:
I had really bad AA/NA experiences ....we were in a long term program and had to go..... and the old timers there we just walk around with this a arrogant it was unbelievable......they thought thry were kings.....they actually yelled at people who kept relapsing .....really made him feel like a piece of shit......



it's a shame that people in meetings tend to be this way. I still go because I think it's positive for my recovery, but a lot of the time people are just douches. I found that some tend to take their behaviors from being an addict to the rooms of NA/AA, despite how clean they've been. if they wanted to be a king pen when they were using, they're going to try the same in meetings, and so on.
I once went to an AA meeting with my sponsor and when I introduced myself as an addict an old timer quickly said "your and alcoholic too, right?!" as I was sitting down. In that same meeting I turned to my sponsor to ask a question about what someone said and was hushed by some bitch behind me before I even said the first word. really?
mostly its these kinds of people that tend to turn me off to meetings. like I said, I still go but it's a huge put off. the wannabe cult leaders of AA/NA everywhere are easy to find, and that's a damn shame.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:56 am 
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Both fellowships do have their own set of rules. These rules are created by each home group. I know that some can be a little overbearing, but it's their right as a home group. If you don't like that group, then try another. They aren't all the same. Find the people with real recovery..... Not the 20 year old gurus with too many years and not enough days lol.


Don't let one bad experience drive you away.


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