It is currently Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:25 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Off sub 17 days- PAWS?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:10 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
I was on subutex/suboxone-same difference- for 5 years. I do really believe it's a helpful sobriety tool unlike many others. It gives you distance from your old ways so much so that you can't even imagine copping on street corners again. It allowed me to get my life back, and I am grateful for that. Working closely with my doctor, I tapered down all the time until I knew it was time to get off, which you have to be very mentally prepared for.

So I jumped off 1mg on Dec. 26 (10 days ago). My doctor gave me Valium, clonidine, ambien, and muscle relaxers. Clonidine is the one you absolutely can't detox without; it almost completely takes the wd symptoms away. Anyway, it's been up and down - overall I guess it's nothing compared to kicking H or methadone. I keep trying to remember that. My sleep is erratic, although my doc says I should be comatose on all those meds, and I'm confused why I'm not. I even throw in OTC sleeping pills, and I still can't sleep through the night.

Currently at day 10, this is my regimen:
DAY- one 5mg Valium and HALF a .1mg clonidine

NIGHT- one 12.5mg ambien, 2 muscle relaxers, two 5mg Valium, one .1 mg clonidine, and 3 OTC Benadryl-like sleeping pills

Here's my concern/question- I have literally been in bed almost the entire 10 days except when someone walks me to the bathroom or puts me in a bath- because if I stand up on my own I faint. It's happened a few times because I keep trying to get out of bed from shear boredom. I know it's the clonidine making me black out, but I'm on such a low dose! And if I don't take it I have sweats and chills. Why is this happening to me? I'm tired of being bedridden, and if someone does help me walk I feel like there's a brick on my chest, and I can't breathe.... And I'm talking about 20 feet total, and I collapse.

I am just so frustrated. When are the acute symptoms going to be over so I can stop the clonidine? Forget the PAWS that come later, Cymbalta does wonders for that. But when can I expect the chills and sweats to be done? I know I am lucky to have these meds to help; most people don't have all that. But this whole stuck in bed thing is driving me crazy. When are the wd symptoms gonna stop?


Last edited by FinallyOffSub on Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:54 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
I'm not a doctor but am a paramedic with 25 years of experience. I have to seriously question if such a low dose of clonidine is doing this. Are you able to check your blood pressure or have someone else check it for you? If not can you accurately take your pulse? If your pressure really is that low your pulse should increase. I'd much more question if you are dehydrated. I'd also have to suspect the Valium and ambien. 10 mg PLUS ambien PLUS two muscle relaxers??? And you think it's the half dose of blood pressure meds doing this? Not at all likely. I'm actually very surprised a doctor would prescribe all of these drugs to an addict to come off of sub. The risks are huge with that. Finally I'd also have to consider if something else is not going on here. Coming off of subs should not at all result in what's happening to you. I strongly suspect you are over medicated, dehydrated or most likely both.

If you can get an accurate blood pressure and pulse rate - both while lying down and while standing or at least sitting up) and let us know that will start to tell the story. Consider taking only one 5mg Valium, one muscle relaxer and less ambien. That will very likely get you out of bed.

Don


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:22 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
Thank you for your response. I can't get a blood pressure reading but my resting heart rate is 96 when laying down. I have to wait for someone to get home and help me stand up to get my standing heart rate.

I don't think it's the Valium and ambien though because I only started them a few days ago. The first and only things I were on originally were clonidine and trazodone (which did nothing- I was awake 28 hours before he prescribed the other things). But I had this lightheaded, fainting, breathing issue from day 1... Before the added meds.

And I don't think he's being irresponsible with his prescribing; if anything he is more conscientious with me because he is a close family friend. And he checks in with me via phone almost everyday, even New Years. But lately I'm feeling guilty about calling him on his cell with my every concern, so I need to wait til Monday to call him at his office.

The one thing you said that does make the most sense is dehydration. I haven't been able to take more than a sip of water or Gatorade- for some reason it tastes like metal. Same with food- no appetite.

So you don't think the small clonidine dose is causing this? Is it possible I'm just really sensitive to it- I'm only 98 lbs. The clonidine really helps my symptoms so if you don't think it's the culprit I will continue taking it.

And if anyone else has any insight on when these acute symptoms will stop, please let me know. I know it can be different for everyone, but I'm at day 10, and I pray every night that I'll wake up and they'll be gone.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:45 am 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1543
I agree with the paramedic. I particularly don't like the chest pressure you are having when you stand, before you feel faint. I don't know your risk factors, but you could be having ischemia and angina-- standing causes drop in blood pressure and decreased blood flow through coronary arteries, and the reflex increase in heart rate increases oxygen demand at the heart.... You really should see a GP or internist, and consider an EKG. I agree that such a low dose of clonidine is unlikely to be a major factor. The sweats may be from lingering withdrawal, or may be from hypotension, or from the benzos wearing off at the end of their dosing interval-- but at any rate, sweating uses up a LOT of water, and so if you THINK you are dehydrated, you probably are VERY dehydrated. You stand, and the blood pools in your veins in your legs--- also realize that the reflex that raises blood pressure with standing goes away after a day or two of bedrest....

Bottom line, you need to be drinking enough to be urinating several times per day, at least. You are likely down a few liters or more-- i.e. a gallon or more of water plus electrolytes. You would benefit from a few liters of IV saline... but at home, Gatorade is a good start. Get drinking!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:37 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
I sort of glossed over the chest pressure and difficulty breathing since, especially difficulty breathing can come with hypovolemia and dehydration. I also assumed you were younger in age - something I should not have. Having a family friend doc is both reassuring and concerning. I feel better as you are likely getting looked at way more than the patient who is seen for 10 or 15 minutes in the office and sent away with a bunch of scripts in hand. I also feel better that the more dangerous meds came later rather than sooner. While they would still scare me, clearly not sleeping for days is no good either. So you have some up side I didn't anticipate and most don't get. On the downside a doc emotionally involved as a family friend will often allow more than they would in a standard doc to patient relationship. This is because they really want to help and see first hand how poor you may be doing.

Either way my opinion is now backed up by the real deal with an actual doc agreeing. I don't know what may be going on but it's very likely not the blood pressure meds. You clearly are dehydrated. Could there be more? It depends. Certainly if you are over 40 or have risk factors for heart disease be sure to pay attention to that. If you are over 30 AND have risk factors pay attention. If you can get rehydrated and still feel like this talk to this doc about it. My hunch is if you can get rehydrated you'll start to feel better. If anything I'd cross the B/P med off the list of causes. Your blood pressure may well be low but not likely from the clonidine. For certain a resting and lying down pulse of nearly 100 is not normal no matter how you slice it. I'm willing to bet your rate goes north of 120 when you stand. The tank is empty. There is less blood to carry oxygen to the body and brain - thus you feel like crap with difficulty breathing. You need to fill the tank. If you get your pulse back to normal 60-80 and still feel like this it's more than fluid loss.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:30 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
Thank you both for your advice. Currently I am barely taking in a cup of liquid each day, and some days I don't even go to the bathroom at all. I'm not sure how I'm going to do a gallon. Does tea and coffee count? Even before starting detox I barely drank any fluid daily, I just don't feel thirsty. But I'll try. At this point I would prefer IV fluids because I'm in such a state of malaise- food and drink seem a burden.

I'm just confused why my body is reacting like this. I had a friend get off sub, and she was able to (a) sleep through the nights with minimal meds and (b) was able to walk around and even leave the house after day 5 or 6. I'm now on day 11, and last night I got three hrs sleep even on my med cocktail. Am I not sleeping well because I stay in bed all day? I read other posts about people going to work and exercising, etc. I can't imagine doing any of those things in my condition.

If I do drink more fluid, will the sub leave my system faster thus taking away wd symptoms sooner? I literally just sit in a pool of sweat and take clonidine all day (not in excess of allowed dosage though). But I feel like I'm going crazy. Things I used to enjoy doing- computer games, piano, even TV- just seem boring. Is there any way I can make this process go faster? Or will more fluids give me the strength to leave the house? Thank you again for your advice; it really helps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:24 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
I just read your post on another thread where you state your pulse shoots over 150 as soon as you stand. This is really concerning. You are still in what is termed compensated shock - where you body does things to help compensate - raising pulse rate, likely shunting blood away from your extremities to your vital organs. The thing is, if this keeps progressing you could move into uncompensated shock where your body starts to shut down. An imbalance in things like for example potassium can cause heart arrhythmia and other bad things. You may well have gotten to the point where your body simply can't take in enough fluid to keep up and IV fluids are the only choice. Most certainly if you went to a hospital you'd get 3 or 4 liter bags of fluid IV TO START OFF You may even be admitted. This is nothing to screw around with. If you get worse or even just get no better you have to get medical treatment. Going from a 100 resting to 160 standing pulse in 20 seconds gets my attention in spades. It would not surprise me if your blood pressure was 60/20 when standing. You have to force yourself to drink fluids - any fluid you can at this point other than alcohol. Gaderaide is best but anything is better than nothing. Drink drink drink. It's not just the only way to get better it may be the only way to avoid landing in the hospital or family calling 911 for you!

The other thing is at this point you must stop the clonidine it's only making this worse. In the hospital or detox they won't even give it to you if your pressure is below 110 (some protocols use 100) you are most certainly below 100. The clonidine while not the CAUSE of this is making it WORSE. You have to stop clonidine until you get your pulse down and your pressure up. It's counter productive at this point.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:59 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
Yes, that was really concerning me too especially because when I did stand I could hardly breathe, let alone walk or speak. Finally got a hold of my doctor today, and he took me off the clonidine. I'm a little nervous about this because it did help with my wd symptoms. But as tomorrow will be day 13 off subutex, I am hoping I can get by without it.

Now that I am off it (last dose was .1mg at 7am), how soon will I rebound- meaning being able to walk around without blacking out or shortness of breath? And now that I'm off it do I still need to drink all this fluid? Lastly, I had been taking the clonidine for 11 days (.4 mg each day); will I experience any hypertension from those 11 days?

I'm really glad to have figured this out because I was quite scared, but I'm also nervous about no longer having the clonidine as a withdrawal tool. Do you think the worst is over now that it's coming to day 13? Is it safe for my blood pressure and heart rate to take Valium ? I just wish someone could tell me when the acute symptoms will end. My doc says he thinks I have about 4 more days of not feeling great, but really- how can he know that? It's different for everyone. But at least now I won't be bedridden from the heart rate problem . Thanks all for your support and advice !


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:12 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
I still don't think you fully understand. Clonidine is not the CAUSE of this. It just could make it worse. It's like being in 100 degree heat. Having a sweatshirt on is not the cause of overheating but is making it worse. Stopping the clonidine won't fix this. Replacing all of the lost fluid will. If you stop the med but continue to not take in fluids this will continue. You have to get back to a resting pulse of 80, a standing pulse absolutely no more than 100 - preferably no change from 80, and urinating several times per day. That's what is needed. You need to drink as much as you can. Certainly no less than 60 oz every day. That's what will improve things.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:00 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
Ok, I will start drinking more fluid. Thank you for your help!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub- need advice
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:28 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
I'm off clonidine, drinking fluids constantly to the point where I'm going to the bathroom every hour- but I still get do out of breath when I walk (at least I can walk now without the blackout). My standing hr still won't go below 115-120. What else can I do and how many days of rehydrating like this do I need to do? I want to go outside! But I can't if I'm out of breath in 1 minute.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Off sub 14 days!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:32 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
Ya know, I thought today was the day- I woke up feeling great, took a shower instead of a bath (which was a HUGE because I previously couldn't stand without passing out), I walked around the house, etc. I had minor symptoms which were just annoying, but now I'm concerned about the mental effects. I am so withdrawn and irritable and bored. I don't like doing ANY of the things I used to- I was a tv-aholic when I was home or computer games, etc. Since I've started the detox 14 days ago, I can't stand to look at the tv- it actually makes me angry. The only thing I can tolerate is listening to music, which I am now tiring of as well. Mind you- I have been in the house, mostly on bed rest for two weeks straight. Also, my restlessness is stirring up all these weird thoughts. I have been in a committed relationship for 6 years, and suddenly I'm thinking about sleeping with other people which I would NEVER have considered before stopping sub.

I feel like my whole mindset is changing... For the worse. Like I'm becoming impulsive and erratic which is exactly what got me into drugs. Am I just going stir crazy from being cooped up for so long? Or should I go on an anti-depressant or something? I have a good, stable life- and I'm worried that if the sub was curbing my naturally impulsive behavior, I'm going to screw it up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:31 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:28 pm
Posts: 117
Wow,
I was reading your thread and wanted to chime in. First, I think that donh and subdoc have given you some sound advice. I cant read your thread without thinking how you still jumped at a relatively high dose(1mg) after being on it for 5 years. I know you want to feel better soon, yet your body needs time to heal. Some of the meds you are taking are going to have their own set of withdrawals if you take them too long, so be careful. Anyway, I have read about many people tapering to doses of .125mg or less, then skipping days, etc. In those stories, I have found that their withdrawals were less severe, able to go about everyday business with some sleep issues, aches and pains, chills, etc. but manageable. You jumped at 1mg so it just will take a bit longer, you have done a great job so far, try not to be hard on yourself. Keep drinking plenty of fluids( force yourself), you need to put good nutrition in your body and try to get some light exercise.

These strange thoughts and emotions coming to you is not unusual. Many people who have stopped using suboxone have posted these types of feelings. Try to understand that its just for the time being, your brains chemistry is going through a massive re-set, so to speak. If you can, get outside, take a short walk, try very hard to stay busy with anything that keeps you focused away from your withdrawal symptoms. Hot baths, reading a good book, go out and have a nice meal, go to a movie. Try to remember this is your recovery and there is light at the end of the tunnel.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:22 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm
Posts: 18
Ok, so it's day 17. Physical symptoms are pretty much gone at this point, but I'm still taking 5mg Valium and 6.5 mg ambien at night (allergic to trazodone, which would be the norm). Two nights ago I experienced the worst depression I've felt in years- only at night though, my days are actually decent. So I ran into my doctor, and he gave me Cymbalta, which I took yesterday morning. But last night I felt like someone stabbed me with adrenaline, and I could barely sleep an hour even with my sleep meds. I took my heart rate several times throughout the night, and it went between 108-115 all night laying down. It was so fast I could hear it in my head and feel it in my chest. So now I'm thinking- I'm not touching that stuff again.

I read up on Cymbalta, and it seems to have those side effects for the first few weeks- anxiety/insomnia. I know that I am experiencing PAWS, but can I get through it without an antidepressant? And so far, my depression only hits at night. I don't know what to do here .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:17 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:26 am
Posts: 30
Moved to another thread so as to no to hijack this one.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group