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 Post subject: i'm not angry
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:54 am 
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i'm not angry at suboxone cause i think it can help people but only in the most extreme cases. i'm not a big fan of trading one opiate for another but if someone is on a high dose of methadone or on heroin then i think it can be useful. i quit from taking 15 to 20 10mg vicodins a day before so i know it can be done without the help of suboxone. problem is around where i live doctors are prescribing moderate hydrocodone users 3 8mg strips a day which in my opinion is way way too much. 90 suboxone a month for a person taking 10 to 15 vicodin tens a day is ridiculous. but there are 3 guys that i work with that get 90 a month.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:07 pm 
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There is a ceiling effect on Suboxone. So if you take 3 a day, you will reach that level. Suboxone helps for cravings so some people might need the max dose. I personally think that 3 a day is a lot for a person that has a 10-15 vic problem.


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 Post subject: That's Good
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:50 pm 
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I like that. "I'm not angry" posted in the Why the Anger section. It does make it impossible not to click on it so for that I take my hat off to you.

Back to your subject though. I was one of those who were only taking Norco and a bunch of other drugs to make a cocktail of oblivion. It was May of '10 when I was induced so the information on support sites was not all that great. When I made the decision to go on Suboxone it was because of another addict member of a now non existent drug and alcohol recovery site. She kept posting how wonderful it was and how it stopped cravings, etc. So I did the search for a Sub Dr. who took my insurance and found one. I made a list of all the drugs I was taking while sitting there in moderate withdrawal, just like they told me to do over the phone. My opiate list was not all that great. Maybe 160-200 mg's of Hydrocodone. A bunch of Tramadol's and of course the mighty Soma to mix with the Hydro so I'd get that oblivion effect. Very dangerous BTW.

Anyway, he induced me with 24 mg's over an hours time. I felt weird but okay. He let me drive home. Very, very, stupid of him. But he too was nieve about how Sub worked. By the time I got home I went directly to the toilet and puked. Just like a junkie would after getting the proper dose. Told him about it and he poo pooed me. After that, it was a battle of me saying I'm on too much and him saying not to mess with my dose. I won that battle of course.

Okay, what I'm getting at is this. At the time, there was no way I could break the cycle of pain pill abuse w/o Suboxone. Had I known it was also an opiate I still would have taken it, just as a way to save my life. Then with a somewhat clear head, make the decision to quit it later with a good slow and long taper. The same way we all should stop Suboxone.

Am I angry? Nope. For me, Suboxone saved my life. How long I'll stay on it I cannot say. But now after learning so much about it, I do hope that one day I'll get angry enough to stop. Until then, I'm doing okay.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:36 pm 
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very nice post rule, i stopped off of norco once for 5 months and once for 9 months so it can be done. sometimes i think suboxone is just masking the problem without the euphoria. other than no euphoria the feeling was the same for me at least there wasn't any tylenol in it to kill my liver. as this becomes more popular i see the debate about the pros and cons getting more heated. in some situations it is needed in others not so much but it sucks that alot of doctors that no nothing about addiction decide our fate.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:36 pm 
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I agree that doctors really need to reassess how high of a dose to start people on, especially folks with a moderate pill addiction. Even my doctor, who does think outside the box, started me on 16 mg for my 100mg to 140mg oxycodone habit. I think I could have easily started on 8mg to 12mg of sub. I do blame RB for influencing doctors to give maximum doses. I'm sure that their sense of altruism (if it exists) stops at the bottom line.

I'm not angry either. But doctors need to start listening better to their patients.

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
I agree that doctors really need to reassess how high of a dose to start people on, especially folks with a moderate pill addiction. Even my doctor, who does think outside the box, started me on 16 mg for my 100mg to 140mg oxycodone habit. I think I could have easily started on 8mg to 12mg of sub. I do blame RB for influencing doctors to give maximum doses. I'm sure that their sense of altruism (if it exists) stops at the bottom line.

I'm not angry either. But doctors need to start listening better to their patients.

Amy


Yes they do i started at 2mgs a day and that made me sick of course my tolerance grew to almost 2 strips a day that was enough to get me high for a day. and yes i do blame rb too i assume about 70 or 80 percent of doctors give 3 a day to patients that only need 1 strip a day and all thats doing is getting people hooked on a high dose of subs. and then you have docs telling patients around here that subs aren't addictive. i really think this is a problem


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:47 pm 
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They really need to start putting in $ to research another opioid similar to buprenorphine, but with a ceiling dose much lower than that of bupe. As it stands the ceiling effect of bupe kicks in at a tolerance level well above that of your average pill-popper. 8-12mg of Sub is a fair whack of opioid for someone who pops a few vics / norcos a day.


Last edited by TeeJay on Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:58 pm 
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Docs could just give out lower doses? But. The only thing about this is two things I've seen many many times....

Patients in the beginning always think they need more and more.

Doctors prescribe doses to people wayyy over the ceiling to make sure that their opioid receptors are good and covered. This way people can't use on top of sub. So when they try.... Nothing.



So if docs just put people on max of like 4mg, there would be an outrage amongst alot of patients. We the people of this forum don't really represent a very large number of people on suboxone. Most don't care to be educated about it and want to just take as much suboxone as they can lol. So when a doctor says you get 2mg to start.... Okay great. The next week "it isn't working" and the doctor gives them 4mg.....next time again "I need more, it's not working very well"... Doctor gives them more. So you see it would keep going up and up until the patient says so really. There are just sooo many factors playing into it that arent represented on this forum. Tons of suboxone patients just want to take it and go about their day. They don't want all this extra research so they go by how they feel and that's it. Sad. I know. But that's the truth.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:54 pm 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
Patients in the beginning always think they need more and more.



MovieMaker1 wrote:

Most don't care to be educated about it and want to just take as much suboxone as they can lol.


MovieMaker1 wrote:
Tons of suboxone patients just want to take it and go about their day. They don't want all this extra research so they go by how they feel and that's it. Sad. I know. But that's the truth.


How are you able to speak on behalf of so many people? I'm not being smart, I'm wondering where you get all of your info. I must have missed it somewhere. Are you in the medical field?

ANYWAY, I think the point of this thread, which is a little muddy now, is that it should be up to the doctors to educate us addicts about what we're taking and how it works.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:54 am 
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How are you able to speak on behalf of so many people? I'm not being smart, I'm wondering where you get all of your info. I must have missed it somewhere. Are you in the medical field?

ANYWAY, I think the point of this thread, which is a little muddy now, is that it should be up to the doctors to educate us addicts about what we're taking and how it works.[/quote]

thank you, doctors should educate themselves better. but so many doctors treat an 8 a day norco addict and a heroin user that shoots up the same way and gives them both the same dose. i was taking 15 or 20 norco a day and the suboxones a day was way too much just got me in deeper than what i was before


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:58 pm 
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I speak based on my experience and what I've seen. My sub doctor runs a med group and therapy group for like 20 addicts in each group. There are three levels based in complete abstinence from all drugs minus suboxone.... Weekly, biweekly, and monthly. So. I've been in many groups with tons of different addicts over the years. especially due to the revolving door. But. I didn't mean anything to be mean or anything. I'm just speaking from what I've watched happen time and time again.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:13 pm 
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i understand what you are saying, so how about 8 or 12mgs a day for a moderate norco addict instead of 24mgs a day. i just feel like 24 is way too high you are handing a high amount of opiates to an addict and asking them to be responsible. and if they dont take 24mgs a day what do you think they are doing with it? selling it on the streets like everyone i know that gets subs does.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:34 am 
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Very interesting points raised...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:58 am 
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Yep. 8 10mg vicodin a day is exactly the same as detoxing from high dose oxycodone or high doses of iv heroin. Exactly.



I'm such a crazy person sometimes.


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 Post subject: Uneducated docs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:32 pm 
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I went into rehab with a 400-600mg a day oxy,hydro, anything else I could find habit. I spent 8 days there, I was on a taper dose, started at 16mg first day and tapered quicky to 6mg for the last 3 days. I seemed to be feeling ok, maybe a little under what I needed, but I am at 4-6mg a day it has been just over a year. I think your points about the docs not really knowing what to do is a big factor. We are all different. i see people that were taking 40-60mg a day, way less than me on 24mg of sub a day.

I think the best thing that sub has done for me has changed my brain. I had such a schedule of taking my pills, would not eat until I took them, watched the clock, tried to not eat that much so they would work better. I lived my life 2 hours at a time. Here it is a year later, and I don't have those thoughts anymore. (Occasionally, but not very often). I have used it as a tool to retrain my brain. There are days that I actually almost forget to take my sub, and many hours pass before I remember.

I don't consider myself clean, just sober. I am hoping to be off subs by the end of the year, I really don't want to be on them forever that defeats the purpose for me. I do understand that everyone is different, we all use the tools we have ben given differently.

We all started on the same path but are taking different routes to get to the end. But you are right, until someone does controlled research and makes the docs and patients accountable for their actions, nothing will change. IMO people are getting rich off of our addiction.

Sorry I tend to ramble.lol :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:53 am 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
Yep. 8 10mg vicodin a day is exactly the same as detoxing from high dose oxycodone or high doses of iv heroin. Exactly.



I'm such a crazy person sometimes.


i sense a little sarcasm, i couldn't imagine detoxing from heroin that would be pure living hell


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 Post subject: Re: i'm not angry
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:56 am 
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deadsexy5803 wrote:
i'm not angry at suboxone cause i think it can help people but only in the most extreme cases. i'm not a big fan of trading one opiate for another but if someone is on a high dose of methadone or on heroin then i think it can be useful. i quit from taking 15 to 20 10mg vicodins a day before so i know it can be done without the help of suboxone. problem is around where i live doctors are prescribing moderate hydrocodone users 3 8mg strips a day which in my opinion is way way too much. 90 suboxone a month for a person taking 10 to 15 vicodin tens a day is ridiculous. but there are 3 guys that i work with that get 90 a month.


I agree with you here to a point. I think they should not be given 24 mg of suboxone as that's too much n they should try taper / cold turkey first. However, if people have tried all methods n cannot quit n it is impacting on their life then, in my opinion, a small dose of suboxone could be useful.
As I've mentioned a few times I was taking 700-800mg codeine daily n quitting made me feel suicidal n FOR ME the grief was unbearable so I asked for suboxone n now I'm fixing the mess that I created with my codeine addiction WITHOUT the intense cravings.

I don't think that suboxone should only be for heroin user, I think it should be any opiate addiction depending on the person n their situation. I don't it's over-prescribed at all.

Plus isn't it better that those people on hydrocodone, get treated with suboxone now before they end up addicted to stronger opiate such as H. I know I had thoughts of wanting to try stronger stuff n get the nice cosy, warm, fussy feeling since codeine never gave me that anymore but I yearned for it.

Take care everyone,

Evey x

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