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 Post subject: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:06 pm 
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I have started taking subnoxen. I was given 8 mg strips. I feel fine for 3-4 hours. A bit of a buzz. Too much of one for myself. But, then I feel like death. Dizzy, sweats and such. Is this normal? I'm afraid to take anymore.

Thanks for any help,
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Hello Bob and welcome to the forum!

Can you please provide a little more info? Like what was the drug (if any) you were using before taking the subs, and what dosage and how long using?

Also how long did you wait after the last dose of the previous drug before you took the first dose of Suboxone? Was it 12 hours, 24 hours, 2 days, etc?

It's difficult to say without a bit more info. You could have possibly taken the sub too soon, and it's also possible that 8mg is just too much for you if your prior using habit was fairly low.

Share as much info as possible and we'll go from there. Lots of extremely knowledgable members here to answer any and all of your questions.

Again welcome to you Bob and hang in there. We will attempt to get this figured out soon!

Karen


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Sounds good. A bit of history. I had a 5 disc fusion. The first one did not take, so I had it redone. I have been taking hydrocodone 60mg a day for about 8 years. Some oxy and stuff mixed in throughout the years. I waited 17 hours after taking 10 mg of hydrocodin before taking the sub. I swear, I have never felt this bad ever. I have been through withdraw from opiates before that never felt this bad. I did try sub a few months ago. The same thing happened. I did cut one in half. NOt as bad, but still pretty bad.
Thanks so much for any advise or simular happenings....

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Hi Bob,

Definitely sounds like your tolerance is lower than the suboxone dose you're taking. The buzz you feel when you take the sub is just the beginning, when suboxone takes full effect hours later, that's when you're getting sick (dizzy, sweaty, etc.) Any nausea, headaches or sleeplessness? Those are common symptoms too.

I've seen many members pass by here with your previous tolerance and they usually do well on 2-4mgs. You might want to adjust your dose to one that doesn't make you sick. Let us know how it goes.


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:41 pm 
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Hi Bob,

Thank you for the info. It is definitely appreciated.

To prepare to take Suboxone the first time and first dose, you want/need to be in moderate to severe withdrawals before that first dose is taken. If you take the sub too soon, and are not in withdrawals that are severe enough, you could place yourself into what is called precipated withdrawals (PW).

Basically you go into withdrawals alomost instantly, and they are the worst withdrawals you will ever experience. You will be sicker than sick. I had it happen to me and actually went to the ER because I honestly believed I was dying! Not trying to scare you Bob, just being truthful here. You want to avoid those PW at all costs....if possible.

Waiting for 17 hours as you say may not have been long enough? Very difficult to say right now. You could be experiencing it. If you are in PW you will know it I promise. You say...."you have never felt this bad"....so it sounds to me that is a possibility depending on how long ago you took that 8mg of sub?

How long ago did you take the sub Bob?

For right now I would not take any more of the sub. Let your system rest a bit and see if your symptoms improve. We ca actually re-do the induction if you would like? I would be more than happy to help you with it if you agree? What I personally always suggest is the use of what is called the Cows (clinical opiod withdrawal scale) to know if your are ready for induction, and that first dose of sub. The Cows is a series of withdrawal symptoms that numbers are placed to. You use the Cows to score your symptoms. Once you get to a score of about 15 or higher, then it's safe to take that first dose of sub. Take it before your score is high enough and you run the risk of those PW's.

Here's the link for the Cows Sheet....
http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf (<---- Click)

If you could have someone else score you it would be better. If we score ourselves we are sick with symptoms and may fudge the score, or not be real accurate rating symptoms. If you have to do it yourself just be very honest as it does nothing but hurt you if your not scoring honestly.

I agree with Tiny about your tolerance level and the 2-4mgs of sub. That might be plenty for you? Hard to be absolutely certain, but what I would do if it were me is to begin by taking 1mg doses and wait an hour to give it plenty of time to work properly. Subs needs a little time to get the full benefit of it. After that hour has passed if your not feeling good yet then try another 1mg dose and wait another hour. That will give you a very good idea where your at, and if you require more or not.

If you want to take my suggestion then stop taking anymore sub for now. Let withdrawals begin again, use the Cows, and we'll go from there. Keep us updated as much as possible how your feeling. It sure sounds like you are over-medicated.

Get all the info you can and make an informed decision. Others may have different suggestions for you. But as I said, if it were me knowing what I do about Suboxone, I would try and re-do the induction process. That way you will be on the lowest dose possible instead of over doing it.

Hope this helps Bob, and let us know what you decide to do, or want to do.

Karen


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Karen,
Thank you for the advise. Honestly, I don't think that the withdraw I was having from the hydrocodon was too bad. So as you say, I most likely did not wait long enough. As far as the PW goes, I think you could be right on. I almost did have my wife take me to the ER. The funny thing is, it took a few hours. At first my head was numb as could be. I had a high that was pretty bad. I can't explain it really. But it was definetly a very intense buzz. Then it was just pure hell. I finally laid down and slept for an hour. I took the sub at 0730 this morning. I still do not feel good at all. It is almost like the worst hang over one could imagine but worse. I am thinking about just skipping the sub all together and suck it up with the withdraw from opiates.


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:11 pm 
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^ Bob,

Usually with Precipitated withdrawals, the symptoms are that of a violent withdrawal. Cramping, diarrhea, vomiting, nausea, restlessness, etc.

The effects of too much soboxone usually consist of a buzz, symptoms of a "bad hangover" like you mentioned, headaches, being in a fog, dizziness, sweating, anxiousness, sleepiness or not being able to sleep.

Suboxone is a lot stronger than hydrocodone. You generally wouldn't have to wait that long to induce after hydrocodone. It just doesn't stay in the body that long.


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:20 pm 
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bob wrote:
Karen,

I am thinking about just skipping the sub all together and suck it up with the withdraw from opiates.



You can certainly do that if you feel that's best for you Bob. I would expect you to have these withdrawals for about 3-10 more days or so, with the worst of the symptoms being around days 3-4. Hard to tell for sure as everyone is different.

I/we can suggest many things that will help you get through the symptoms if you do indeed choose to go that route. Many have dome it exactly that way and had plenty of success.

Now IF you do want to give the subs another chance, I'm quite comfortable in saying we can get you right on track with them. I will tell you just like most everyone else here that subs are an amazing med. Without a doubt they saved my life along with NA support group meetings, my therapist, and the wonderful members here.

IF you chooe the subs then don't take another dose. It's not fun, and basically sucks to be in withdrawals again, but you only have to do it ONCE if you do it correctly. Wait until symptoms score a 15 or higher on the Cows, thnen begin by taking 1mg doses until you are completely stable.

With sub you should feel as "normal" as possible. Not high, just feel really good, and able to do anything you choose to do. You will be able to live your life like YOU want live it while on sub therapy. Honestly Bob, it's a wonderful and amazing drug, and has saved many from continued abuse of their drug of choice.

Either way you choose to go you won't be taking anything for now. Give it a day or so and hang in there ok. Everyone here knows exactly what your feeling like and going through because most everyone here, including myself has been there. You will receive lots of suggestions and support here Bob, and we will be here for you when you need us.

Let us know what you decide please. Hang in there pal, it's going to be ok I promise!

We take care of each other here, that's what we do best! :D

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:52 pm 
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WOW Thank you for the support ! Ifeel much better. I am really happy that I found this site. I had the feeling that no-one had a clue of what I was going through. My family has no clue what I am going through. It's not that they don't care, they just don't understand. OK here is my game plan. I will wait for saturday to try it again. I really didn't think this was going to be a big deal with the sub. I didn't get much advise from the doc. He actually wrote the script for 8mg two times a day. I will start out with a 1/4 of the film. 2mg. If I understand you correctly, I should not feel any buzz? I should feel normal? Not sure what that really is LOL Then if the withdraw does not go away after an hour, try another 1/4. If I start feeling like death again, do I stop?

Thank you very much for listening. I appreciate the help so much !

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:04 pm 
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You want to feel well and not have withdrawal symptoms. Considering suboxone's strength, and your previous tolerance, you may experience a bit of a buzz on 2mgs as well, but the goal is to not have negative side effects. When you dose again (be it tomorrow or saturday,) try the 2mgs. You'll be surprised how well that dosage works.


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Agree with Tiny. I originally suggested taking 1mg doses, but you can take 2mg if you choose. I think because that 8mg didn't work out to well I would only take 1mg dose at fist Bob.

Two ways to cut the film strips I suggest. One is to use tweezers and a pair of ladies cosmetic or toenail scissors as they are fairly small and work perfectly. Hold the film and cut it in half by eyeballing it. You will get it close enough I promise. You will have 2 pieces that are 4mg each. Cut those in half and you end up with 4 pieces of 2mg each. Then cut those in halves and you have 8 pieces all of 1mg each. Easy to do, just take your time ok. I did it, you can do it! :D

Other way to cut films is a member here, RXFCG has developed a cutting guide to cut films. Several recommend it highly as I do also. Just google RX Film Cutting Guide and see what you think?

I would begin with only 1mg as I originally suggested myself. Up to you of course what you do Bob. We suggest different ways and you choose what YOU think you should do. You can always go UP in dose is my approach.

Hang in there, you will be just fine!

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:52 pm 
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I agree with what Tiny said, if you were in PW, you'd feel it pretty quickly, you would not get a buzz first. You felt crappy after a couple of hours because you just took too much Suboxone for your 60mg Hydro habit.....way too much Suboxone.

You have to remember, Suboxone is an opiate, too. It's a partial agonist, but that doesn't mean you won't feel a buzz, especially with a fairly low opiate tolerance like you have. If you start on the proper dose, your "buzz" should be minimal, at best.

I don't think you need to re-induct either. You could try a 2mg dose tomorrow morning and I'm guessing that'll suit you a lot better.

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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:45 pm 
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You can do what you want to of course Bob, but with 8mg of sub taken it may take a few days to get it all out of your system to where you begin feeling better.

bob wrote:
As far as the PW goes, I think you could be right on. I almost did have my wife take me to the ER. The funny thing is, it took a few hours.

That sounds like a lot more than just feeling crappy or just a buzz to me. It sounds exactly like you went into PW's after some time had passed.

Not everyone that gets PW's get them almost immediately either. For some it takes a few minutes up to a few hours as it appears happened in your case. Thinking it was serious enough to want to go to the ER says it was more than likely PW's.

If you do decide to continue with the subs I would definitely re-induct beginning with 1mg doses until stable. That's my opinion and what I myself would do. You would remain on the subs for as long as you personally feel is necessary and then need to taper from them.

Waiting until Saturday before taking anything is a good idea in my opinion. Gives your system time to clean itself out a bit and you can then make your decision.

If you want to go the other way and not go with sub therapy it will be a week or so dealing with symptoms and then basically over. The physical part of this would probably be over. Then you would need to deal with the mental aspect of addiction. Perhaps to keep you on track some NA/AA/Smart Recovery meetings would be in order. Stopping the drugs is really the easier part. Remaining free takes lots of continues work as I will confirm. You were on the hydro for about 8 years so it's going to be a mental change as much as a physical one too.

Let us know on Satirday what you decide. Whatever you decide I'm with you all the way!

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Hey Karen,

For whatever it's worth, there are plenty of people who over do it on subs and feel sick enough to go to the doctor or ER. I've seen it plenty and mostly from people coming from lower pills habits. Also, the very definition of precipitated withdrawal is "sudden or premature withdrawal.' Because of the binding strength of buprenorphine, it will certainly knock any opiate right off the receptors, quickly. It doesn't take hours.

I do agree with you that the 8mgs would likely stay in his system for more than a day and waiting till saturday could prove beneficial, assuming he feels ok tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Taking 8mg of Suboxone with a low tolerance (60mg of Hydro's) after waiting 17 hours from the last Hydro dose is very unlikely to produce PW, much more likely he was closer to an OD situation. I know it's very hard to actually OD on Suboxone, but his symptoms, and the time frame of it not hitting for two or three hours is much more likely to be way too much Suboxone. The symptoms Bob described, dizzy and sweats, are more consitent with too much Suboxone. Had he said he all of a sudden shit himself, barfed all over, lost control of his limbs and body to extreme body jerks and whatnot, that would be more consistent with PW.

Also, I've never, ever heard of PW's beginning with a buzz. That's simply not how PW's work.

When I inducted onto Suboxone, I took twice what the doctor told me to. The ride home was 45 mintues. About 15 or 20 minutes after getting home, I turned to my wife and said, "I think I took too much" because I was feeling a whopper of a buzz, but not that good kinda buzz, it was that too much buzz feeling. I came within a hairs breadth of asking my wife to take me to the hospital. Very similar to what Bob described.

I believe I took another dose of Suboxone that evening, of course, I didn't sleep a wink, but never got that "overbuzzed" feeling. Took Suboxone again the next morning and started to "normalize", for lack of a better word.

When I precipitated wd accidentally from OC, it hit very quickly. There was no buzz first. I just went to feeling that feeling like the OC's were leaving my body, then all hell broke loose. The diarrhea began, then the vomitting, then my arms and legs started shooting about and jerking uncontrollably. This is not at all similar to what Bob described.

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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:03 am 
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tinydancer wrote:
Hey Karen,

Because of the binding strength of buprenorphine, it will certainly knock any opiate right off the receptors, quickly. It doesn't take hours.

No desire to argue whatsoever here, but I have personally witnessed PW's happen to not 1, but 2 of my close friends that refused to wait any longer than 8 hours between the time they took their last dose of their drug of choice and the time they took the first dose of sub. PW's didn't come on as they normally do nearly 99% of the time, almost immediately, it fact it truly did take more than an hour for one chick, and approximately 2-3 hours for the other. Not guessing here, I was there with them both (on separate occasions) and witnessed this happening.

And one of these friends did indeed require a visit to the ER. Any other time I would positively agree with you about it.

But in my own case of going into PW's they did come on almost immediately so go figure. Again no attempt to argue the point, but I really have seen it happen. If I hadn't witnessed that happening I never would have believed it either based on all the info we have available on the subject.

Karen


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:00 am 
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Good morning, Bob. How are you feeling this morning?

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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Good morning all. I have been reading through all of your replies. Good stuff !
I actually got up this morning at 0430. Around 0700 I wasn't feeling too chipper. SO, I took 1mg of sub. I really did feel pretty good after. But, even with only taking 1mg, I still felt like I was in a foggy state. A small buzz. But like Romeo stated, "it's not a good buzz". At 1000 I started to feel blah again. So I took another 1mg. I feel pretty much the same as before. Foggy I don't think it's anything bad. It's just hard to work / concentrate like this. And very tired. Not a lot of modivation.
I will keep you all posted and thank you for your help.
Also, with this small dose there is not much pain managment happening. Tylenol and Ibuprofen just don't do it

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Hey Bob,

What most likely is happening is you still have plenty of that 8mg dose you took yesterday still in your system and adding the 2mg you took today is still too much for you right now. That's why I was suggesting you give it a couple days and not take any more of the sub to give it time to dissapate. It's ok, we can deal with it so don't worry about it right now.

Sub has a very long half life which is usually between 24-72 hours in most of us. The mean or average is about 36-37 hours. What that means Bob if you don't know is that in say 36 hours (for example) only half of what you have taken leaves your body, and half will remain. In another 36 hours half of the remaining sub leaves, and again half will remain and so on until it's all gone.

Now if you continue to add sub or keep taking more then of course due to that long half life you will have more in your system. So what I'm basically saying is that you took 8mg yeaterday, and if the half life for you is only 24 hours, which is very low, then 4 mgs would be gone, and you would still have 4mgs in your system from the previous day. Ity could vary a little bit either way depending on exactly what the half life is for YOU personally. Hope I explained it well enough.

If you still have 4mg from yesterday left in your system, then you took 2mg today, you can see that most likely you will now have approximately 6mgs in your system right now! That's an estimate depending on several factors like your metabolism rate, physical condition, etc.

What I would again suggest is you not take any more sub today or tomorrow if you can possibly get by doing that. Give yourself a little time to get rid of some of that "built-up" sub you have in you. Does this make sense to you Bob? Then maybe on Sunday you could again try a 1mg dose and see how you feel. I honestly believe that's exactly what I would do here in your case if it were me.

The others helping here may suggest something else, and you can decide how you want to work this. But it appears that taking the 2mg today was a bit too much for you. Hang in there and I'm very confident we can all get you feeling much better real soon! Have a great day!

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: new to using Suboxen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Karen,
Yes, I totally understand what you are saying. Tomorrow is a very easy day for me. So I will take your advice and skip taking any tomorrow. Any advice on pain managment? That is the reason I was taking the Hydro.Pain...But, I was taking way more than perscribed. Some took that as not being too good of an idea. Go figure LOL And the hydro wasn't working as it should anymore. We all know why.

Thanks
Bob


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