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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Quick background. I was using about 120mg of oxycodone a day when I decided enough was enough. I started oxy about a year ago (hydro for a couple of years prior to that. The hydro habit was 10-20mg a day for 2 years, That got up to about 70mg for 2 months, then 30mg of oxy and that reached the current 120). I began seeing my sub doc in August. He rx'd 8 of the 8/2 strips for me to start at home. Well I farted around with starting. Finally last Friday (9/13) I began my abstinence. When I was at 18 hours and in significant withdrawal and knew I would not "cave" I called my sub doc only to find out he would be leaving on vacation for two weeks. So. Here I am beginning sub with only 8 strips and no doctor until 9/30. Fortunately he called prior to his vacation and says he authorized another 8 strips if I need it. What is odd is when he rx'd the sub he said start with 16mg. Then later on he said start with 8. Then during the phone consult he said I may be able to make the 8 strips last for the two weeks. So. I really don't have a whole lot of solid guidance. I AM REALLY interested in stretching a little a long way.

So. My first days dose was 4mg. As was day 2-5. My concern is I don't know if I am getting the full benefit I should be getting from the sub. I certainly have no physical WD. But, I have noticed that after I dose in the morning (about 3mg) when I reach 1pm or so I start getting some serious cravings. I go for one more milligram and that seems to knock down the cravings. For some reason I had it in my head after 4 or 5 days at 4mg that because of the half life and stacking that if I didn't have cravings for a few hours that after "stacking" for 5 days I would not have any cravings period. That does not seem to be the case.

So my question. Did I screw up? Should I have downed 8mg the first few days to build up serum levels? Am I being an idiot in taking so little because I don't want to be on this crud any longer than needed?

I look forward to your opinions.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:29 pm 
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I hope these help you... I don't have a long attention span normally, so I would imagine watching videos maybe easier for you too,

I would say maintain the smallest dose that WORKs for you, but doesn't over-medicate (tired, sweating-sometimes, makes all side effects worse usually) you is best... both for cost as well as later, when/if you decide to taper off.

good luck to you and let us know if you have ANY more questions!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:46 am 
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" crud" ?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:42 am 
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Painter wrote:
" crud" ?



Hey Painter

I thought this was a support board NO matter what someone chooses so why the above post :shock: ? We all have our own reasons & ideas about using the sub. Many people use sub as a detox tool & many choose to stay on anywhere from months to years. The poster just started & needs support, he may have chosen "crud" because he has read so many negative things.

My 2 cents


Last edited by Tiki on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:49 am 
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mkintexas wrote:
So my question. Did I screw up? Should I have downed 8mg the first few days to build up serum levels? Am I being an idiot in taking so little because I don't want to be on this crud any longer than needed?



Hey Tiki, I believe you misunderstood Painter's intentions here.

In their first post above, mkintexas had mentioned the word "crud" in one of the last sentences. I believe Painter was only inquiring as to why mkintexas had called the sub crud?

And I truly believe mkintexas was not actually meaning it that way at all. mkintexas has been here all along and I have posted to them several times in their other thread. They just began this new thread looking for additional answers I guess?

I'm not trying to speak for others here, but that's the way I read what was written anyway. I could be wrong of course, but that's the way I read into both posts! :D

I don't believe any harm was done, or intentional.

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:54 am 
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Hi Mark

I just started sub & have no real cravings but I started at a higher dose. I took 12 day 1 & it barely kept me out of w/d. My use was higher than yours & my doc wants me to take 24 mg a day which is way to much.

Can't really answer your question but my suggestion is to get the other sub the doctor called in for you so you feel safer. Maybe try 4 in the am & 2 in the pm to see how you feel. My doctor said "saturation" takes about a week. That means it's up to a week before the receptors are all covered by the sub. Maybe that's why you are having the cravings?

Sub is also not a magic pill. You have to work for recovery/abstinence,, & it seems to me your dose is very low as a starting dose.

There is a PM function here & you can ask others directly, Qhorse & browneyedgirl are very supportive.

Hope you feel better today & those cravings are gone !


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:12 am 
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Informative videos. Thank you for posting. I use the word crud relative to me and my state of mind at his very point. I am quite disappointed in myself that I screwed up and now must use sub to get my life back in order. Is sub a savior? I won't really render an opinion until I successfully get off of it. If it is the same hell getting off of as oxy or other opies then I reserve the right to call it crud in relation to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:04 am 
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mkintexas wrote:
Informative videos. Thank you for posting. I use the word crud relative to me and my state of mind at his very point. I am quite disappointed in myself that I screwed up and now must use sub to get my life back in order. Is sub a savior? I won't really render an opinion until I successfully get off of it. If it is the same hell getting off of as oxy or other opies then I reserve the right to call it crud in relation to me.



Hey Mark

I know what you mean. I tried taper after taper & failed for one reason or another. Sub for me has not been a magic pill but a last resort. I don't have cravings & I feel more alive/awake. It has taken me 10 days to be "ok". Maybe it will take you less time.

Please keep posting. There are many good people here & good information.

Tiki


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:59 am 
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I would up my dose if I were you. Can you take 8mg a day and make it to your next doctor appointment? Maybe 6mg a day, 4mg in the morning, 2mg in the evening?

Something you may want to think about is this, did you usually get cravings in the afternoon anyway? I know I trained myself for decades to use drugs heavily after I got off work. To this day, my most troubling time of day (when I do get cravings) is late afternoon, right when I get off work. I'm just wondering if your cravings are more psychological than physical?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Hey Mark,

I'm glad to see an update from you. I agree that it would probably best to increase your dose to about 8mg if you can. Even if you want to use short term as a detox, the first step needs to be getting stable and on a dose big enough to make you comfortable.

I hear alot of guilt in your posts. Mark, you are going to have to find a way to deal with that. I had HUGE guilt associated with my using. I felt all of the same things you have described. Being a parent, and having an addiction is a big load to carry. But you have to give yourself a break! You are doing what you need to do by getting treatment, that is a really big step!

As for wondering if the taper from suboxone is more manageable than other opiates. I really believe that it is. It's still not a walk in the park. You will have some WD. But, if you take it slow and drop by small amounts you will succeed in dropping your tolerance a little each week. You just can't do that with SAO's (short acting opiates).

The first step is to get stable. Then, you can start to taper by small amounts each week if you want to. I can't look into the future, but I think you will be very happy with your decision to start suboxone when you get to the end of it.

On another note. I really want to encourage you to get into some kind of therapy to deal with your guilt. If you keep all of that inside of you it is going to derail your recovery.

I wish you the best of luck!

Q

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Since you've asked for guidance I have a couple cents to throw in..

It sounds like you wish to remain on Suboxone for a short period of time, I would assume to lessen physical withdrawal from the agonist you were dependent on? If this is the case, the best route would be taking the smallest amount possible, and you say that whatever dosage you are on now is taking care of physical withdrawal so in theory you would taper from that amount and there's plenty of successful taper stories with detailed amounts and timeframes right here on Suboxforum.

Cravings are a core issue within addiction and are effectively dealt with in a couple broad ways. 1. maintenance dose buprenorphine/methadone; aka opioid replacement therapy. 2. some method of psycho therapeutic treatment; aka disease concept/12 step/cognitive-behavioral approaches with indefinitely continued follow-up and relapse prevention strategies ('We must remain ever-vigilant' type stuff.) Anything short of MAJOR changes when it comes to sustaining addiction remission almost always fail except in unique circumstances. Part of the problem with addiction is that the internal dialogue involved tends to tell us that we are in unique circumstances. We are either the one with the will-power to do it on our own or we are the 'less then fortunate' AA/NA mention, etc.

Taking Suboxone short-term will deal with cravings in the short-term (similarly taking Suboxone long-term will deal with cravings long-term; that is my bias) but if the goal is to get off Suboxone in X amount of time, a relapse prevention plan and coping skills need to be in place for any expected successful outcome. The reason maintenance modalities exist is because it is understood that addiction does not go away and there is a life-long likelihood of relapse. Successful outcomes are shown within residential treatment programs that are set up the same way with hospitalized detox/residential gradual step downs back into the swing of 'real life' over the course of months with expected follow-up 'maintenance' via therapy/counseling/meetings/something lifelong. Addiction requires maintenance of some kind, medication or psycho-social/behavioral; if it didn't boards such as this one wouldn't exist, people would just taper, either never use again or be able to 'learn a hard-taught lesson' & never use destructively again or just forget about it. Those latter people exist but they are the minority.

I haven't read anything else by the OP, so maybe you do have a plan in place, but you asked for some guidance and I had a few mins. :) Good Luck with whatever path to recovery you decide to take, hopefully Suboxone will give you the clarity and time needed to weigh everything out and figure out which path is the best for you as an individual.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:01 am 
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Hi all,

Thanks for your responses. It would seem that I dropped the ball on proper induction. This was a complete out patient thing and I dragged my feet starting. When I finally pulled the trigger my doc headed out in vacation. So I have a limited supply of sub so I am trying to make it last.

I had my first post induction counseling session today. My counselor is encouraged with my current tool set of knowledge and desire. I did use a bit of his Kleenex up. ( yes. Some guilt). I will have to forgive myself at some point. But that is hard sometimes.

I am hoping to stabilize at this dose in the next few days or I may limp along until my doc returns and then try to take a larger amount for a few days to get me above that ceiling affect to where I stay there despite 24 hours between doses.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:32 am 
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Learning to forgive yourself is tough, but it's such an important part of recovery....hang in there, man.

I've always found it interesting how many of us forgive others rather quickly, but when it comes time to forgive ourselves, we're not that kind to ourselves. Be kind to yourself, Mark!

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