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 Post subject: New to site and suboxone
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Greetings to all and I am so blessed to have found this site! I have never, nor thought I'd ever "blog" on a site before but after reading everyones story and issues with addiction you have given me such a "connection of sanity" that I AM NOT ALONE! I have been lurking for the past week or so and today is the day to say "hello" and a little about myself. I'm 53 years old, retired RN, yes I still have my license by the "grace of God" and was 40 years old before I had my first percocet and the only way to explain it is: Oh baby, where ya been my entire life?" For after that first Rx, I had more energy than that bunny, more organized than anyone, better at everything and well you know, chasing for the euphoria that I lost years ago leading me down that destructive and deceitful path with a life motivated only by how and where could I find more OC's of course never having enough and now today with alot of heartbreak in between, 13 lost years, too many to count detox attempts, with only 3 to 6 months clean time in between, feelings of "the only freedom from this demon disease is when I'm buried" I am, for the first time in YEARS hopeful that I can get my life back as I finally went to a doctor and started on suboxone 2 weeks ago. I was always against suboxone as I had the mind set of not replacing a drug for a drug. I have finally done my research and have changed my way of thinking 100% My induction was a rocky one (which is how I found this site). My doctor was MR. No personality, saw him for maybe 10 minutes, I of course in tears, and him telling me not to beat myself up and sharing alot of statistics of abuse in the medical field (of which I already knew, but his stats amazed me if they were accurate) but gave me a rx of 21 pills 8mg, told me to take the first well into wd and then one three times per day and come back in a week. Well I did not start taking them until 5 days later because I had some things going on that week that prevented me from the wd part. The suboxone worked great the first few days and then I got so drowsy and he told me I would have to "play around with my dose". Well I have been so screwed up trying to find out what is right for me, I am now on day 2 with 6 mg in am and 6 mg in pm and without any side effects thus far. Don't know if that sounds right for where I'm at as I have read so many posts with such variance in dose, but I guess everyone is different. But most importantly, I think I feel "normal" no desire to abuse this therapy, or of thoughts of going back to chasing what I hope is now and will stay in the past. I know I have alot of work to do for ME and again I have been so enlightened and encouraged by so many of you! THANK-YOU


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:05 pm 
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welcome!

I too, am pretty new to this site and one day 14 FREE! Suboxone has been a life saver. I am so sorry to hear that your Dr wasn't more involved. at least for me, that was what helped me get through the first few days. THEY helped me get on the right dose. I stayed at the office the whole first day actually. I am so thankful, because I ended up having a kidney infection my first day. Man, that was torture. Pain and fever on top of WD's. I know take 24mg/day and they will taper me down to something more realistic for every day use next week. I beleive they plan to taper me OFF after 6 months. I slightly remember them saying that but I was very sick that day I was in. Anyway, after being on this board I REALLY dont want to go off subs. At first, I too, looked at it as replacing my habit with just another substance. but after reading a ton - I dont see it that way anymore. I would rather be on suboxone and not using. I am WAY too afraid I will relapse if I am on nothing.

I was addicted to H for almost a year...my bday (sept 19) would have been a year using but instead I was day 3 clean this year. Gosh, I so remember that at first I was also super organized, and always on top of things. After about a month though, I barely wanted to shower! And trust me, I am the girliest girl you probably know. I stopped modeling and could care less to be in front of cameras.


I wish you luck and hope you come to us when your having a hard time!!!


Jessica

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Hi Sam and welcome! I'm sure you'll find lots of support and information here - I know I have. I'm glad after lurking around a bit you finally decided to post. It's also good to hear about someone who did their research and learned that sub is NOT trading one addiction for another. That thinking is so prevalent and it's keeping people out of treatment and thus costing lives. It's too bad your doctor wasn't more involved, but you made it through your induction and here you are! Your dose sounds fine...if you feel fine on it. That's the key. People are often started out at higher doses than they need to be stable on later. I also take sub for pain so I dose 8 mg either 2 or 3 times a day. It works for me...Like you said, we're all different and what works for someone else won't necessarily work for me.

Again welcome...I'm glad you found us. Keep posting!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Hello Samellison,

Welcome to suboxone talk zone this site is so great i'm glad you found it! I too started on a higher dose and had to figure out what dose was best for me. I was really tired on the high dose i began at. You are very right everyone is different. I was started at 24mgs and stabilized at about 12-14 in the begining. I have been on subs almost 7 months and am down to 6-7mgs 2 times a day.

I am glad your feeling a little better on a lower dose :) I wish you the best and keep us posted on how your doing :)

Jenn


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:11 pm 
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Dear Sam,

Hello, and thanks for sharing your story.

I too am an RN and somehow by the grace of God and a lot of hard work I too still have my license. I am so glad that you were able to find this medication. For me it is a recovery tool of the highest order. I've been to rehab twice over the last 20 years, attended countless AA and NA meetings, made gallons of coffee, carried the keys to the church basement in my purse for several years, worked the steps, had four sponsors, and generally tried my best to do everything that was recommended to me. Through it all I relapsed many times, became very depressed and just never felt right unless I had opiates in me. The more the better - and I can remember getting down on my hands and knees when I was using and cleaning the corners of my kitchen floor with a pin. For every high feeling I had I paid with a 10 times lower feeling. I was never just at baseline. It was like riding a roller coaster.

Since starting the Sub I have felt normal, for most of the time, and it has done wonders for me. As has already been stated the dosage is different for everyone and it all depends what works for you. I take it for pain too and I am on a large dose, but once I get the pain stabilized I would like to work on decreasing it.

I hope that all goes well for you.

~Rossma


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:55 am 
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Good morning and thank you for all the welcoming responses! I had nearly finished a post and went back a page to look at something and lost it all! Will take time for me to learn my way around here! How wonderful it is to connect with others that I CAN SO RELATE TO!! I found this forum through watching and listeningto Dr. J's videos. Wow, he is awesome, not only did I find answers to many of my questions but more importantly I found rational justifications to some feelings that I had been experiencing! Helping me so much on putting some issues into a better perspective! Again, thinking I was unique, only to find out....ha ha. Rossma, you said so well...Suboxone is your recovery tool of the highest order and I believe that with all my heart that it is mine as well. I know that I need other "tools" and change in my life in order to stay clean. Input please on the issue...I don't know if I need to post this somewhere else but asking others if they just take sub and go on in life or what other things to you do? I have been involved with NA on and off for a long time and where I believe in the 12 step program I will not go back. They smirk at those on suboxone (and shamefully I was one of those). I remember this poor girl being ostracized by the group for picking up a 30 day chip because she was on suboxone. There are many other issues for me as well. I had been "taught" that If you are truley an addict you will NEVER stay clean without NA. I believed that for so long because surely after I stopped going to meetings and I eventuley returned to the pills so what they say must be true! Didn't matter if it took a week or months it always happened. But I now understand that I can stay clean without going to meetings for the rest of my life, I just need to find different tools. Sub being the first one for now but maybe some insight on what others do that works for them. I live in a very small rural area, left nursing to be a full time stay at home grandma. Yes raising our 8 year old grandson since he was born. My daughter is a 3rd generation nurse and addicted to opiates as well, lives in denial and not a part of our lives. I considered myself in being a highly functional addict but was starting to take a downward spiral before going on suboxone and that scared the crap out of me. sorry to ramble and for now I will also use this site for support and inspiration. Have a safe and productive day!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:05 am 
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Some of us also do NA/AA and/or therapy along with sub treatment. But there was a recent study that illustrated how people in counseling did NOT have a lower relapse rate than those who didn't do therapy. Personally I think it just depends on the individual. I had issues and was in therapy before my addiction. Now that I'm clear headed my therapy is actually getting somewhere. I also needed to learn coping skills so I didn't need to reach for a pill when things went wrong.

You might want to read some of Dr. J's blog posts about 12-step programs and desperation. I believe his position is that those of us on suboxone don't have that sense of desperation, therefore the program isn't "needed" to keep us "clean" (I hate that word). Anyway, check out his blog on that subject if you haven't already.

I wish you the very best!

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Oh, yeah, "12 Step Elitists" I call them. Holier than thou windbags is what they really are. And many of them, especially the ones who have had problems with opiates, will likely end up on suboxone one day, just like the ones they are looking down their noses at today. They can't even listen to their own advice and counsel sometimes, which clearly says, "There but for the grace of god go I"

Did I just type that? I'm an atheist! :lol:

That might explain why 12 step programs never did much for me, eh?

While I don't really advocate dishonesty, especially for addicts, I think the best approach to being on subxone and going to meetings is to keep the fact that you're on suboxone to yourself. It's really nobody's business anyway. Look at the AA/NA meetings as a buffet. You take what you need, leave the rest. There is some really good and helpful knowledge in those halls, and there is also some idiotic bunk in those halls. You've got to sift through everything and find your way to the good stuff, leaving the bunk behind. That's how I see it, anyway.

Sam, welcome back to your life. And welcome to this community. 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:04 pm 
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I have not been to any meeting for a long time, due to being handicapped. Now that my new titanium knee is feeling better, I could go back, but you know? I don't feel the need to. As has been said, that feeling is desperation is completely gone. I did have a scare for a few days after my recent surgery when I got home and started loading up on opiates, but the memory of the normal feeling that I have with the Sub gave me more than enough motivation to toss out the Oxycodone and get back on my meds again. After 48 hours, my mind was stable and at ease once more.

I have seen people be rejected at meetings before for taking pain medication after surgery or dental work. Some people feel that any sort of medication no matter how justified, constitutes a relapse. One time shortly after I first went in, they were talking about one of the women who had just died of pancreatic cancer and how she went to her grave without taking anything stronger than Tylenol, a feat which was highly glorified. I was working inpatient oncology at the time and understood what kind of pain she must have had. I remember thinking, if that is the way a person in recovery has to live, then I am not sure if I want to live! However I tried my best to persevere, because I did want to be sober and I had been told that this was the only way. I feel no ill will for AA and NA, and I know that if I need to I can walk in at any time and it'll be like I never left. If I were to do this, I would definitely keep what medication I take to myself, and agree that it is nobody's business!

The doctor who rx s my medication has a counselor on staff and I see him at least monthly. I do a lot of reading, and participate in this forum. For me, today, it is enough. Everyone is different. Thanks to everyone who posts on here, and answers us. You all have made such a huge difference in my life, you will never know!

With love and gratitude,
Rossma


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:32 pm 
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Hi everybody, I'm new. Seems like you guys are a nice group, so I'm hoping for some advice? Sorry if I take too long to explain, I don't usually post on boards so bear with me. I'm a forty-something who always drank a little too much, but didn't discover the joys of opiates till about 5 years ago. Started taking vicodin for chronic female pains, graduated to percocet, and was on my merry way! I went into treatment for alcohol/opiates last October, stayed clean for about 4 months, and then relapsed. I had never heard of suboxone until I was in treatment, but nobody suggested it for me when I got out. I have taken naltrexone in the past, years ago, and thought it was a miracle drug as far as stopping my drinking! Then moved back to the small town I grew up in, and couldn't find a doc who would prescribe it because they weren't familiar with it..idiots. Anyway, last month I finally got a doctor to prescribe it, but obviously can't take it with oxy in me! So...I was referred to a psychiatrist by my therapist, and he wrote me a scrip for Suboxone 2 mg, 50 pills. I just took my last oxy tonight about 6pm, I have tried to taper as best I could but still did about 25mg today..snorted, no extended release or anything. I am scared to death to go into w/d, and I know the doc said to wait "until I was feeling really bad" to take the sub. My question is..how bad is "really bad"? I've tried to cold turkey before and it was hell, so I guess what I'm saying is what happens if I take the sub too soon? I know it will put me straight into w/d, if I wait 15 hours would that be about right? Or do I wait until full on misery? The doctor wasn't exactly helpful, I learned more on this site than he told me! Also, this isn't going to be a permanent thing, he just wants me to go on the sub for 5 days, then taper off for 5 more. That scares the hell out of me, because it seems like just prolonging the inevitable crash! Also, will 2 mg be enough? And do I swallow the saliva after letting it dissolve or not? I've read so many different things I don't know. Thanks for listening, sorry if I rambled on. :?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Hi Fyction and welcome. The first thing I'd suggests is that you Google the "COWS scale". It will help you to determine the state of your withdrawals and hopefully prevent any problems with precipitated withdrawals. Check that first. Just remember, it's not a matter of hours, but rather a matter of the state of your w/d.

There's no telling if 2 mg will be enough or not...it is in my opinion a low induction dose. But you got 50 pills, right? Then you should have plenty in order to do a proper induction. (Keep in mind that I'm not a doctor or a medical professional.) Normally people are given anywhere from 4-8 mg to start out then see how they feel like an hour later, then possibly take more. This is NOT set in stone. The idea is to take "enough" so that you feel "normal" and no more withdrawals. If it were me, I'd take 2 mg, wait about 45-60 minutes and then another 2 if you need it. Hopefully that will be adequate.

With regard to the leftover saliva, you can either swallow it or spit it out. Just make sure after it's dissolved that you try to hold it in your mouth for a while. Some people hold it for up to an hour! Not me, though, I can't hold it more than 10 minutes, if that. So hold it in your mouth as long as you're able for maximum absorption. Even though it's dissolved, there's still medication left in your mouth that can still absorb.

It really stinks that your doctor was of so little help. If you ask me it's pretty irresponsible. Just my opinion.

Please know that recent studies show that such short treatment has a very high rate of relapse. See how you do the first week or so and go from there. I'm not going to tell you to ignore your doctor's advice, but think about this - what will happen to keep you from using again after your 10-day stint with bupe?

I hope this helps...again, welcome.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:31 pm 
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Hatmaker, thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it! I looked at the COWS scale, but all that told me was the different stages, which stage should I be at before taking my first sub? I know, you're not a doc, but since mine apparently sucks, here I am. He told me to take 1/2 tab for 5 days, then 1/4 tab for 5 days. He seems to think I should be able to quit at that point. I know, it seems like a short period of time to me too. The problem I have is the cross addiction. I really want to get back on the naltrexone, which will both block the opiates AND stop me from drinking. So what I am afraid of is, the longer I stay on the sub, the longer it will take to get it out of my system. The doc told me I had to wait at least 10 days between my last dose of suboxone and my first dose of naltrexone, because apparently the sub binds to your receptors longer than regular opiates? So, that gives me a 10 day window to get into trouble. I don't have any immediately available source for oxy or anything else, I made sure of that by actually being honest with my latest doctor (primary) after losing my previous doc because she was so pissed that I had been lying to her all this time. Can't blame her for that. :( I don't even know anyone personally that does them, so that is a plus, but what I am really worried about is that I am going to go through w/d with the sub as well. The doc told me it takes about 3 or 4 days after you stop taking it before you feel any withdrawals..great, so here I will sit waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. I hope my posts are coming up okay, I don't know what have of this means, like the BBCode, or whether I need to post a subject line when replying or not................funny how I can shop online with no problem, but can't figure out how to use a message board! :roll: BTW, I love your George Carlin quote..so true.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:19 am 
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You should be in mild-to-moderate withdrawals before you start. Not sure which COWS flowsheet you looked at, but here's a good one: http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf.

I believe your doctor is correct about how long it takes for the sub to leave your system, in that it's longer than "regular" opiates. Now it's possible that with only 10 days of sub treatment if you taper properly that you'll have little to no w/d. Of course like I said with such short treatment it does nothing for cravings or relapse prevention once you stop taking it.

FYI - Suboxone is currently being studied as a treatment for alcohol addiction, too. Many of us that are on sub have learned that we have little to no desire to drink while on it. There are even a few people I've heard of that are on suboxone for the sole purpose of treating their alcoholism. Again, this is only being studied now, but see how you feel on it.

I wish I had better answers or information for you. I wish you the very best. Please let us know how you're doing.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Hatmaker, that link you posted is DOA (at least right now it is - 10/06/2010 @ 1:40pm EDT) so I'm posting another link to the same sheet on a different site, just in case:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17115126/COWS ... Flow-Sheet


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Works for me...Thanks, junkie. You're the shit.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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