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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:54 am 
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Hey Everyone,

I've dipped in and out of Sub forums as a reader on and off for the last few years, always coming away with good information. I'm about to try and get back on Subs this weekend, and I figured I could use the extra support.

I had been clean from heroin for five years when I ruptured a disc in my spin almost two years ago. The pain medication brought me back to heroin, and I spent two months injecting hardcore. Two months was enough for me to get desperate - so I dried out on my friend's couch for 40 hours and then took some Suboxone. I stayed on it for about a year, starting out on 16mg and tapering to 1mg. I always bought from the streets.

Then, about two weeks ago, I traveled to Mexico for some major dental surgery. The pain was miserable and I really just used it as an excuse to take my drug of choice: heroin. I've been doing that for two weeks and it just really sucks. The heroin doesn't even make me feel good - I just feel mildly ill, bland, and tired al the time.

I saved myself a wake-up for tomorrow and then cleared my schedule on Saturday so that I can detox enough and begin taking my Subs again. One thing I remember from the transition last time is that even though I was taking 16-20mg of Suboxone, I was still a weird kind of dope sick for about ten days. Maybe it's the heroin on the west coast--which is low-grade tar--or maybe it's because Suboxone is a partial agonist so my body had to adjust? I've never read about anyone with that experience, so I would be interested on any thoughts.

Anyhow, I'm praying about it, planned for it, and really look forward to getting back on Suboxone. I'll probably be around a lot this weekend as I make the switch. Wish me luck!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:41 am 
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Hi Anonman and welcome! Happy you are here! I am sure someone with h experience will come along soon to answer your question. My drug of choice was pills. You did not say why you never worked with a doctor to get suboxone? No judgement... just curious. We are all here for the same reason! Good luck and please stick around and let us know how you are doing.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:04 pm 
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Hey anonman,

I don't have any experience with heroin either, I've been hooked on pretty much every opiate except that. I don't understand why u were still feeling withdrawal type symptoms though if u waited 40 hours. That's a good amount of time to wait before starting sub, I only waited 32 hours and immediately felt better, so u shouldn't have had any withdrawal but as I said, I have no experience with heroin. Maybe this go around won't be that way for u.

I'm so glad u found us, post as much as u need to during this time. This forum is full of support. Any questions just ask. There's plenty of ppl here who made the switch to suboxone from heroin, maybe they'll be along soon and share their experiences.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:17 am 
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Hey thanks for the welcome :) I did what I had left this morning, and it's been about twelve hours. I'm sober at this point, and noticing minor withdrawal stuff, but nothing major. I took some Ativan for anxiety and I'm feeling much better than I was an hour ago.

I took some time today to prepare for a day of withdrawals - cleaned my room, made sure all my pets food dishes were full, got some chocolate, cleared my schedule, and of course I've got some Ativan on hand and vitamins and such. I wanted to set myself up for success.

As for why I haven't worked with a doctor, I just don't have access to a Sub doctor. The only ones that I've come upon in my area don't accept my insurance, and it's more costly to pay out of pocket to see them than it is to pick up Subs on the streets. I was very successful with them over the past year and I'm hoping to have the same success again. The one thing I couldn't seem to manage though was to get off the Subs. I only ever got down to 1mg a day. Every time I tired to go below that, I always felt kind of sick.

Anyhow, I'm sure I'll be back on tomorrow with an update.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:21 am 
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Hiya anonman,
Welcome and glad you will be sticking around!
Hopefully this time round things will be much smoother. We will be here to support you but hopefully the transition is uneventful.
I took my first dose of 2-3 mg close to 40 hrs after using. Worked beautifully. I slowly increased this dose over four years but at the point of induction, this dose worked well given I used almost daily IV for ten yrs (with differing periods of abstinence in between).
I would advise to start low and see how this feels.
I'm so glad you have taken preparation seriously and that the animals will be ok!
Music and baths having been a saviour during Heroin Wd. It sounds like your're travelling well so far which is great.
Keep us updated!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:42 am 
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Hey everyone - so my attempt to get on Suboxone this past weekend didn't work out. I took 4mg of Suboxone around 30 hours into withdrawal but the fear of precipitated withdrawal made the perfect excuse for me to go out and get heroin.

But I want to keep trying. I hate the way the heroin makes me feel, but I still use it. That's the whole story of addiction I suppose.

Anyways, my friend told me about her Suboxone protocol and it's something I had never heard of before. She let's herself go without opiates for about 16 hours, and then she takes 4-6mg of Suboxone, putting herself in precipitated withdrawal. Then she takes a shot of heroin to beat the P.W. After that, she takes Suboxone as normal. She said she does it this way to lessen the amount of time she has to spend in any withdrawal.

So I went searching around the internet and found this:

"Most know that if you're stable on Suboxone/Subutex and keep using your daily dose EVERY day, you can still use your full opiates and when you're done with the full opiates, you can switch back to Subs without the fear of precipitated withdrawal."

I understand that this may not work with everyone as brain chemistry varies and Suboxone interacts with everyone a little bit differently. But I did want to know more, so I kept looking. That's when I came upon a thread on this site by a guy named Homer. He talks about this "new, ultimate, painless way to switch from heroin to Suboxone."

But the thread goes on for four pages and Homer never fully reveals his "new, ultimate, painless" secret. His rationale being that he doesn't want to give addicts an easy to switch back and forth because they might abuse it. I suppose I understand that, but there was something fishy about the thread. Anyways, that's a whole other conversation.

Homer did drop some hints over the course of the thread and another user on here collected the quotes and requoted them for readers. Here are the quotes:

"basics are start taking small doses of sub while u still using and slowly build up..1mg to start with, build up over days, upping dose slowly, 2 mg second day..still using gear...bupe needs to build up in your system"

"u will never throw yourself into wd just taking 2mg or under, not if you are a heavy user, always take the sub just after the hit too"

"honestly u dont need to wait for wds, take small doses of sub while still using...build up the bupe levels. thats the basics of it"

"I was easily able to take 1mg to start with though, but that was while doing a lot of gear. No harm in taking it slower though. Up dose as you feel. Have lopermide and benzos in stock for when you have got the bupe levels high enough to start feeling it. Then u stop taking the gear. You will instinctively know when cos it will no longer do anything."

"In my experience 1mg of bupe has no chance of kicking a substantial amount of methadone off your receptors. Maybe if you are already 48 hrs since your last dose, then 1 mg bupe might precipitate wds"


After reading about this, I searched all over the internet but couldn't find any more information. I'm interested in trying this myself so I've been taking 2mg of Suboxone a day in .5 increments over the last three days. I'm trying to build up the Bupernophine in my system while still using the heroin. Even though I've been taking the Suboxone, I'm still feeling the heroin. Tomorrow, I'll start to take 3-4mg a day and I'll be taking it in larger increments. I'm also committing to only taking one dose of heroin.

I'm telling you folks all this because I'm hoping it'll help keep me accountable. I need to get to a meeting and speak up to the people in my life but I'm not ready tell my people that I've been struggling. I really hope that isn't going to be my undoing - be being unwilling to talk to the people in my life.

Also, if this way of induction works for me, it might work for the other people who can't make it through the 10-60 hours of withdrawal to get to Suboxone.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:03 am 
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Hi Anonoman, You are making me very nervous! I know very little about withdrawl from h and switching from methadone to suboxone so I don't know how horrible withdrawl is for you. My doc was pills. At the time I made the suboxone decision, I was taking 40 to 50 tramadol a day. I have heard that the synthetic opiate is really difficult to kick because of the way it binds to the receptors. But everyone is different. My withdrawl and start of suboxone was difficult but knowing that something was available as soon as it hit it's worst is what saved me from giving up. The part of your plan that really scares me is your use of benzos! I was on a small dose of Xanax before suboxone and stopped it because of all I read and heard about how lethal the combination is! I really think it would be best to stay away from the benzos at the very least until you are switched over to suboxone only. I say this out of fear for you! Please continue to post and know that we are here for you!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:51 pm 
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Ok I may be possibly missing something here because I am definitely not familiar with heroin, so forgive me if that's why I'm not understanding why ur getting precipitated withdrawal. I don't think there should be any pw's switching from heroin to suboxone as long as ur waiting the right amount of time between ur last dose of heroin to first dose of sub. Methadone is the only lengthy process of switching. I've spoken with several ppl from my clinic who've switched from heroin to suboxone and there were no issues, they did their induction just like the ppl who were taking oxycodone or whatever other opiates they were taking. I know the methadone process is different but I thought heroin was done like a normal induction. That's why I'm confused by having to go through all that ur going through just to avoid pw. If u waited the recommended amount of time (which is anywhere from 24-36 hrs) why would their be pw's?

If there's anyone who has experience with the induction from heroin to suboxone, can u please shed some light on this please? I know heroin is one of the most powerful opiates, but I didn't think switching to sub was supposed to be much different than what I went through when I inducted on a very high dose of oxycodone.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:38 pm 
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You have to be careful with sub and benzos. I was taking a shit load of oxy and benzo daily and my doc said it would be safer for me to go and get on heroin instead.
When you get on sub, if you have been on benzo for a while at a decent dose you should taper. My doc put me on sub and diazepam as cutting benzo immediately can be very dangerous, especially while on sub. He put me on 30mg diaz per day (I laughed at him as I was used to at least 130mg per day) and is cutting me back by 5mg every month.
Be very careful and totally honest with yourself and doc.
Good Luck


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:46 am 
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Hey Everyone,

I think I'm more paranoid about the precipitated withdrawal than anything. I don't believe I've ever actually experienced it. The last two times I tried to switch from heroin to Suboxone, I was unsuccessful, Both times I began taking the Suboxone 24-36 hours after my last dose of heroin. I took 2-3mg each time, and I didn't feel better. I don't recall feeling worse, but I was out the door so fast to score that I don't have an honest recollection of anything else. It could have been that I simply didn't take enough Suboxone and/or wait long enough. Anyhow, the reason I'm trying homer's method is so that I don't have to spend any time in withdrawal. It would also be quite amazing to find a Suboxone induction route that doesn't involve going into withdrawal. I don't know though. So far, the Suboxone doesn't seem to be doing a good job of blocking the heroin. I'm going to up my dose tomorrow and keep lessening the other opiates. I'll check in tomorrow.

Night :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:18 am 
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Keep trying ok
Within my first month I started on 8mg and have settled after 20 days on 24mg. Maybe your just not taking enough to cover yourself?
Good Luck


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:51 am 
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Hey Everyone,

I've upped my Suboxone dose to 5mg so far today. I don't know how much the Suboxone is blocking the heroin but it is reducing my opiate cravings significantly. I'm also able to eat a lot more, as in I'm actually hungry. The fact that the Suboxone seems to be reducing my cravings is exciting. Although, I should admit, that as I'm writing this I'm getting a craving just thinking about the whole ordeal.

Tomorrow I plan to up my Suboxone dose to 6-7mg. I'm hoping I can jump off the heroin at this dose. I won't know unless I try - so I'm going to wake up and take the Suboxone first and see how I feel throughout the day tomorrow. I usually wake up and do a dose of heroin. Fingers crossed. I'm going to jump up and take my dog to the dog park tomorrow first thing.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:34 am 
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Okay I completely understand why u get freaked out thinking about pw, when I first went through the induction process I was scared too because my Dr had made it very clear to be off all opiates for 32 hrs (doctors are different on their time periods). So I waited that 32hrs and took 2 mg every 30 minutes til I reached 8 mg and I felt better. No pw, no more withdrawal, just better. The next day my doctor gave me 16 mg and that was my regular dose for a pretty good while. Since ur not using a Dr to do this, make sure ur dose is high enough for ur heroin tolerance. U should not have any more withdrawal and u should not have any cravings. If u have any of those, ur dose isn't high enough for ur tolerance, remember that.

I think u should just stop the heroin completely. U have to eventually, u should just stop now. Ur never going to fully get rid of cravings if u don't. Throw all ur stuff away, keeping anything like that around will only be tempting. Ur gonna feel so much better and living life without cravings is so awesome. Waking up just feeling normal was the best feeling in the world for me. I never thought feeling normal again was possible again until I found suboxone. Good luck :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:44 am 
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Hi Folks,

Good news - I woke up this morning and didn't take any heroin; I took the 3mg of Suboxone instead. I felt fine most of the day! So that means that so far my body is making the switch from the heroin to the Suboxone. Tomorrow, my goal is to take my Suboxone--3mg--right when I wake up, and then try to go the entire day and most of the night without any other opiates. I have two doses of heroin left, Hopefully I won't need the last one!

I'll be back with an update tomorrow. Have a good Sunday everyone! :D


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:58 am 
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Hey anonman,
Keep taking your sub. . Your ready. Get rid of your other drugs and tools and start gour complete
Buprenorphine transfer now.
Up your dose to 4 to 8 mg range and you should be fine now .

This kind of thing always comes down to tolerance know matter what kind of agonst were talking about.

Good luck A17, looks to me that you ve made it.... :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:49 am 
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I stand corrected: homer's method for induction from full-agonist opiates to Suboxone isn't a sure-fire thing. It's true that if you begin taking small amounts of Suboxone while on opiates that your Suboxone induction will be less bumpy IF--and this is a big if--you have a relatively low opiate tolerance and you decrease the amount of full agonist opiates gradually before stopping the opiates and just continuing on with Suboxone.

So I was trying this by slowly increasing the amount of Suboxone while still taking other opiates, and today I intended to not take any opiates and just go on with Suboxone - but I began to go into withdrawal. Not precipitated withdrawal--regular withdrawal.

While I was taking the Suboxone, I wasn't decreasing the amount of heroin I was taking. I actually, instead, found myself INCREASING the amount of opiates to break through the Suboxone. This drove up my tolerance. Not good.

I once heard a theory that hypothesized a correlation between opiate tolerance and Bupernophine efficacy. Imagine 0 is a balanced state. When you take opiates, your balance goes from 0 to 100, an instant surplus. But your body burns through those opiates, in full, after 8-16 hours. So you take your shot of heroin, for instance, and you're in a surplus, and your body metabolizes the opiates, and then something else happens that's a little like taking out a loan: you get an instant surplus but you have to pay it all back, with interest. So if the shot of heroin represents 100, imagine you need 105 to get back to a balanced state. And every time you do this, take these opiates, especially without time between, you owe more and more. So at first, your body can make up the difference; but sooner or later your body gets behind. You take opiates and once they wear off, you don't return to a balanced state of 0, you find yourself in a deficit - maybe -20. You find yourself in withdrawal. So this tolerance increases more and more.

The idea with Suboxone, I suppose, is that it takes the place of the opiate and keeps us out of withdrawal. But Bupernorphine has a ceiling effect. After so many milligrams further opiate effect does not increase. The theory I came across says that tolerance determines 1. how long a person would suffer precipitated withdrawal 2. How long it takes to stabilize on Suboxone.

When I switched from Heroin to Suboxone a year ago, I experienced minor withdrawal symptoms for the first week. The Suboxone took care of some but not all the withdrawal. The symptoms I had were luckily the ones I could live with. I was basically freezing cold but sweating constantly, had some anxiety, and only slept 4 hours a night. A walk in the park compared to full-blown withdrawal. Anyways, I was still very confused. "Isn't the Suboxone supposed to take care of ALL my withdrawals?"

Well - my tolerance was too high. As I was taking the Suboxone, I was also abstaining from heroin, and so my opiate tolerance came down, and after about a week the Suboxone was able to address all my withdrawals.

This time, I was hoping to skip that 36 hour induction period all together by increasing the Suboxone in my bloodstream while still on heroin. The idea was to slowly transition my receptors over to the Bupernorphine. But my tolerance simply isn't low enough to make this work, and taping down on heroin is nearly impossible because there's no way to measure heroin in milligrams.

So I'm back to the good old fashion way of Suboxone induction. You know, it's just like an addict to try and find a way around things. Haha.

Anyways, I'm determined to get back on Suboxone and to stop screwing around with the heroin. It's been three weeks and everyday just gets me further and further in. I've got a lot to lose, too.

So my master plan didn't work: surprise, surprise. I'm just going to go the tried and true route that almost everyone else takes. I can't do this during the week because of class, so it's on my calendar again for this next weekend.

I'm going to keep taking very very low doses of Suboxone during this week - enough to keep the Suboxone in my bloodstream, but not so much that I find myself using more and more heroin. I'm also going to try and wean down a bit this week, which means doing just enough to stabilize myself, but not enough that I get high. If I can get my tolerance down even just a wee bit this week, it'll make the induction a little bit easier.

Thursday morning I'll take my last dose of heroin, and clear out Friday and Saturday for Suboxone induction. What has tripped me up the last two times I've tried to do this is the fear of precipitated withdrawal. I'll wait the 30 or so hours and then take the Suboxone and freak out about precipitated withdrawal because I don't instantly feel better - so I run out and get more heroin.

The way I see it, I can do one of two things: 1. I can acknowledge that this is my reaction and make a firm commitment to wait it out. 2. Keep one last dose of heroin on hand just in case I end up in precipitated withdrawal. I might take comfort in this, and maybe keep my cool because I'll know that, if I need it, I'll have an "out."

Thanks for being with me during this everyone. There's no way around it, so I'm going to have to do this just like everyone else. I'm determined to get back on Suboxone and get back into recovery.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:10 am 
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Sometimes you just have to pay the piper, unfortunately. We will be with you at the weekend when you go through your withdrawal period. Feel free to vent. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:43 pm 
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Yes unfortunately ur gonna have to go through some withdrawal in order to be able to go through the induction process, we've all had to do it pretty much. I waited 32 hrs and I've always been the biggest baby about withdrawal. They literally scare me to death and did the entire time I was using. So when I found out that I was gonna have to go that long, honestly I almost talked myself out of it. But I made it and it was the absolute best thing I could have ever done for myself. It saved my life and I'd do it all over again if I had to. Some ppl don't wait as long as I did and some wait longer, but in the end, we all tough it out. You'll be fine and feeling better in no time. U have to get rid of every little piece of heroin, if u don't this just won't work. U need to leave the ppl and places that u associated with it behind too. If I would have had oxy around during the time of my 32 hrs, I'd never made it to my doctor appointment. Just throw it all away, wait it out, then start ur sub induction. Like Amy said, we'll all be right here for u offering as much support u need.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:22 am 
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A17....

Been a couple days or more since we ve heard from you. I was hoping you d made it though..

Like I said before just keep taking the Buprenorphine and you will make it. Wish there could be an easier way but as Amy said gota pay somewhere in all of this.
Your last post sounded well thought out, but the keeping herion around is always a bad idea..not making judgements here, just concerned you have gone the other way..
Please keep trying..and posting...

Razor.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:28 pm 
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Hey everyone,

I've decided to do the induction asap. I can't wait any longer - I want out of this opiate hell. The last I did anything was 20 hours ago. I hope you folks, or at least some of you folks, will be around online over the next 14 hours. I just took some xanax and so I'll probably fall asleep soon. I plan to wait around 32 hours. I hope that will be enough time.

Talk soon


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