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 Post subject: Thank You Clear Aqua!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:45 pm 
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I just started Sub. today to get off percocet. I flushed 200 lortab down the toliet 2 weeks ago then titrated the percocet from 8 - 10- a day to 4 a day before starting Sub. Like you, I read horrow stories about getting off Sub and was terrified to start them. My daughter finally talked some sense into me when she was the misery I was in with wd. She called a pharmacist she knows well and he helped me understand it all better. I will be on short term cause I just want off all pills. Reading your posts mkes me feel much more at ease about the time I will have to get off. I have had many, MANY nights I couldn't sleep from worrying about all of this and it was from reading the horror story posts. Now like u, I skim right over 'em! Good luck to you. You're gonna be just fine!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:51 am 
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Aqua.... I too look for the positive, it is what we make of it. I always remind myself that I am an addict and part of the disease is creating drama in our lives....... so when I get those "wo is me I am in withdrawal and life sucks" moments I immediately acknowledge it and let it go... our disease is so powerful that it tries in many ways to get us "down" I wont let that happen anymore. I even tell myself when i am feeling withdrawal that "its only a touch of the flu" our minds are very powerful

A person can relapse andn still be positive ( hence romeo :) ), I take responsibility for where I am at now and me and only me can get me thru this ( ok some colonadine and support helps too )

Honestly I have survived much worse then withdrawal lets start with childbirth lol we handeled that right??

We will get thru this and be ok......................................

Hang tough woman.......................


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Saw my doctor today...he was thrilled with how well I've done this month! Today, I have only had 6 mgs of Sub all day. He told me to stay here about a week and then go down to 1/2 (4mgs) per day. There is where he said it gets a bit tricky, as there is a big difference in anything 1-2 mgs in the brain, but here is what he wants me to do:

Stay at 1/2 (4mgs) for 7-10 days.
1/4 (2mgs) for 2 weeks
1/4 every other day - 10 days to 2 weeks
1/4 every 2 days - 10 days to 2 weeks
1/8 every 3 days - 10 days t 2 weeks

THEN, try to go 4-5 days with NO SUB. He says I may very well be able to jump at this point but if not, just to call him and we'll develop a plan from there. He does not feel with my having 53 pills left that I will need another prescription and we did not make an appt for next month. I already feel so much more free! He said to call him with any questions and that he is there for me during this process...he was truly happy for me...makes me feel so good!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Oh, and farmgirl and mg...you two will do just great, too! You've got what it takes....a good positive outlook! Yes, there will be some wd symptoms...no pain, no gain! But, it doesn't have to be any more than you can bear...slow and easy does it...we're not out to win some race here! I'm not here to be a martyr but to show that a successful taper and jump can be done with minimal wd and discomfort :)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:46 am 
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WOW I really need to read those words slow and easy does it this morning.............................thanks chickie


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:18 pm 
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ClearAqua said, "slow and easy does it...we're not out to win some race here!" Exactly!! You guys are not out to win a race, you're trying to teach your mind, body and soul how to live with less and less opiates.....IT TAKES TIME!!

Y'all hang tough!!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:09 am 
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March 1 - 24 mgs/day
March 7 - 16 mgs/day
March 21 - 12 mgs/day
March 24 - 10 mgs/day
March 29 - 8 mgs/day
March 31 - 6 mgs/day

Sorry to bore everyone with my above chart but it's really just for me to keep track with :) I don't have it written down like this anywhere but here!
Ok, I maybe should've not gone from 8 to 6 so fast....having some w/d here...but since today will be my 3rd day on 6mgs, I intend to just go ahead and tough it out...it is nothing so bad that I can't get through it and I'm already 3 days in to 6 mgs so they should be just another 3-5 days anyway. I have learned something from this which is to take it down very slowly from here. Just unbelievable to me that I had little to NO w/d from 24 mgs down to the 6 mg point.
What am I going thru today? Some muscle aches (especially shoulders and upper arms), lethargy and some real crying jags...I call them the "weepies"....everything and I mean EVERYTHING makes me cry :) For you ladies out there...very "hormonal" feeling! It was a little difficult to fall asleep last night for the first time but I finally did and slept soundly all night. I'm taking some Advil to help with the aches...about to get off this computer and go for a walk....time to help my brain out here :)
Romeo, I loved your saying a week or so ago...."Big jumps = big pain in the a**"...LOL...I'm remembering that one!
Thanks for the support, everyone.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:27 pm 
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ClearAqua wrote:
March 1 - 24 mgs/day
March 7 - 16 mgs/day
March 21 - 12 mgs/day
March 24 - 10 mgs/day
March 29 - 8 mgs/day
March 31 - 6 mgs/day

Sorry to bore everyone with my above chart but it's really just for me to keep track with :) I don't have it written down like this anywhere but here!
Ok, I maybe should've not gone from 8 to 6 so fast....having some w/d here...but since today will be my 3rd day on 6mgs, I intend to just go ahead and tough it out...it is nothing so bad that I can't get through it and I'm already 3 days in to 6 mgs so they should be just another 3-5 days anyway. I have learned something from this which is to take it down very slowly from here. Just unbelievable to me that I had little to NO w/d from 24 mgs down to the 6 mg point.
What am I going thru today? Some muscle aches (especially shoulders and upper arms), lethargy and some real crying jags...I call them the "weepies"....everything and I mean EVERYTHING makes me cry :) For you ladies out there...very "hormonal" feeling! It was a little difficult to fall asleep last night for the first time but I finally did and slept soundly all night. I'm taking some Advil to help with the aches...about to get off this computer and go for a walk....time to help my brain out here :)
Romeo, I loved your saying a week or so ago...."Big jumps = big pain in the a**"...LOL...I'm remembering that one!
Thanks for the support, everyone.


Sheesh, you really did go fast!!! That's smart, though, because it does get so much harder at the lower doses, so why not get the easier part out of the way and give a ton more time to taking it easy on the harder parts? Very, very wise. At some point, you may want to give yourself a break. I'd think you should do that around 4 mg or so. By 'break' I mean taking a month to let all the built up Sub get out of your body. It takes about three weeks for that to happen, as far as I know. If you do that, you may make it WAY easier on yourself as far as future drops go. Excellent job, though. You deserve a bunch of credit for being so disciplined.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:20 pm 
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THANK YOU, LADDER! I just came into work and there was your sweet note to me. I am patting myself on the back for you LOL!
Yes, going to slow down here. Since there are several ways I can go from this point, I think I'll stablize really well here at 6 before dropping to 4. I also think that once I stablize at 4, I am going to do 4mgs and 2 mgs every other day to get to 3mgs....and then continue the "every other day" thing to drop...my doctor seemed to really push for that way the most...he said it is easier to do.

Now, here is my good news for the day for all. Because of my line of work, I know a quite a few former addicts. I know a lot that have had to do rehab to get off and I know ones that have done the cold turkey route. I do know this....every single recovering addict I know says that it all passes! EVERY SINGLE ONE of them got their lives back. No one went looney, no one stayed in depressions...they all eventually got there. Of course, some easier than others because of the route they took.
My point being...we keep working at this and we eventually get there! DO NOT GIVE UP and do not let impatience and despair get to you. Stay positive no matter what. I keep saying this didn't happen overnight and it definitely is going to take some time. Be gentle on yourself...you've been through a lot. Help others...it is a major upper to give back.

And...post, post, post! It's good to have a history to thumb back through and see how far you've come. One month ago, I never dreamed I would be at 6 mgs just one month later.
Have a good weekend, laddergirl :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:12 pm 
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ClearAqua,

You asked in a post or two ago, why is it getting so much harder as I go lower.....I think that's what you were asking? Anyway, do you know about the 'ceiling' effect with Suboxone. Once you're above the 4mg ceiling, all of your opiate receptors are saturated....they're all happy little dudes. Once you start getting around the 4mg mark (4mg is a generally well accepted number for the ceiling, some people's 'celing' is closer to 6mg, some it's closer to 2mg?) you really start to pull opiates away from those little happy dudes and all of a sudden they're not so happy anymore.

The trick is to only 'piss off' a few of them at a time so you don't really notice them screaming at you(wd symptoms), imagine if you made a thousand of them mad all at once....there would be a riot going on in your head!! There's your Big Jump=Big Pain in the Ass. If you can manage to make a few of them mad at a time (extremely slow taper, small decrements) then you won't hardly notice them being mad at you. There won't be enough of them screaming bloody murder for you to hear.

Yeah, that's obviously the furthest thing from a medical definition of wd, but it should illustrate the point pretty good.

Remember, once you get to a low dose like you are, most of us on the forum will reccomend a 10% drop. 25% drops usually mean a lot of 'pissed off' little opiate receptor dudes in your head.....not fun!!

You have come a LONG way in a relatively short period of time. Take a quick rest, regroup and then have at it again.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:40 am 
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Hi ClearAqua -

I see I am late to this party (as usual) but I wanted to chime in with my support. I'm glad to hear (read?) that you're doing so well with your taper. I am sure that your positive attitude will take you far in this process.

I tapered off Sub 1 year and 8 months ago - wow, time has flown - and my taper story is pretty well documented around here (liquid taper thread). I wanted to let you know that I'm here if you have any questions - feel free to PM me or ask on the forum or whatever - I'd be happy to share my experience in the hope of helping you succeed in your taper.

I know your doc said you might be able to stop at 1mg...mine said the same thing. It's totally possible that you'll be able to do that and have a relatively easy time. Withdrawal is pretty personal and tends to effect everyone really differently. I just wanted to let you know that if you don't find jumping from 1mg to be doable for you, that's ok too. I had to taper a lot lower, but the result was that I was able to stop and I never missed a day of work and was able to take care of my family and my life during the whole process.

I think staying flexible and keeping an open mind is key. Some people would rather rip the band-aid off quickly and get it over with...others (me!) prefer to soak it off in warm water for as long as it takes. I don't think there's one correct answer - it's just about finding out what works for you.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:01 am 
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I'm glad DOAQ brought up the "ripping the band aid off fast vs soaking it off in the tub" analogy. I've been wanting to speak about it for a while, but I just never have....until now.

I'm one of the 'rip the band aid off fast' kind of people. I jumped off Suboxone around 5mg, but then again, I knew I could miss as much work as I needed to. I didn't have a household to run. I knew that I would not have the discipline required to do a proper taper. I paid for my high jump with a pretty intense wd, but here I am 10 months (tomorrow) off Suboxone. For all intents and purposes, I feel normal again now.

DOAQ did a taper down into the micrograms. She took her time, listened to her body and remained flexible throughout the entire taper process. She didn't miss any work, was able to continue running her household and here she is 1 year and 8 months off Suboxone.

It's like DOAQ and I came off Suboxone in totally opposite ways, but the key is that we're both successful. DOAQ and I are at two opposite ends of the spectrum as far as coming off Suboxone, there is plenty of middle ground for all of you considering quitting Suboxone to consider.

Like DOAQ said, there is no one right way to do it, her and I are perfect examples of that.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Thank you all :)

I said I was going to be very honest in my posts and so I am. Today is still rough. I am aching in my upper shoulders and arms. Tears are streaming down my face as I write this. I never imagined! The melancholy/depression is the worst of what I am going through. I can take the physical...find it harder to deal with the mental. I am NOT going to up my dose as today is 4th day at 6 mgs and I really want to stabilize here. I keep telling myself that I have 3-5 more days of this and then I should level out. Boy, I see that little bottle full of Sub sitting on the counter and know that I could take just 1/2 or 1 tab and feel 100%...this is where some incredible self-discipline comes in.
Romeo....I must have some angry little receptors up there today! I told my husband that I must have "hit my ceiling" finally. For dropping from 24 mgs down to 8 mgs was painless. It was going from 8 to 6 that got me.
I am lucky....my family knows what I am going through and they are supportive. It's aggravating as I think I'm going to have to switch from my contacts to glasses as they stay fogged up from crying so much LOL! I'm trying to find humor in this. I felt so alone until I read stories of so many people my age (53) going thru this from addiction to painkillers from back surgery. You go all your life thinking addiction is a "Young person's disease". I am angry at myself for ending up here...why didn't any doctor take the time to tell me what was really going on? Why did I prefer to live in ignorance?

Wow...such a change in my posts....guess it's good to let the anger out. I know that I never want to be here again and I also know that I want to help others in going thru this. It's spring and it's beautiful outside today and I am sitting here with tears falling in my lap. Not a good place to be...there is always tomorrow.

romeo and DOQ...I could not jump as high as romeo did (have to work and have a family) but kudos to you for being brave enough, strong enough to do so. DOQ, I imagine I will be more in line with your route...going ever so slowly from this point. After the past few days, I know that I cannot handle a 25% drop anymore. From now on....10% drops.

Thanks all :)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:30 pm 
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The good news is that you will feel much better sooner rather than later. It's funny how consistently people start having trouble when they go from 8 to 6 and it's kinda like "WHOA!" Up until then, it seems pretty straightforward and doable. It still is doable, but you absolutely cannot keep dropping by big percentages. I mean, you can, but you'll burn yourself out. It's weird. The emotional stuff hasn't been overly hard for me yet, but I think that's just because the physical stuff is eclipsing it.

If you have to cry, then let it out. It's okay. Just keep being honest about how you're feeling, because no matter how tough you are, this is still hard and you are going to struggle at some points. That's okay!! Plus, when you open up and let it out and let people know, it seems to take some of the power away from that feeling.

((HUGS))

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Thanks, ladder :) I just came home from church and am feeling a little better. The crying comes and goes though the melancholy is always there. This is just horrid....I am relieved to know that many others encountered this roadblock going from 8 to 6. I am just floored that it hit me like this....I look back over my first posts and think how cocky I sounded that everything was going so good...I for sure, never saw this coming. But guess what? It's do-able.
My husband said this morning to keep looking forward to the day that there is my first days without Suboxone. He reminded me of being able to go on vacation, heck...just go ANYWHERE, without being worried about losing my pills, scheduling vacations around doctor appts, etc.

Another thing that is so amazing to me is just 1/4 of a pill would have this effect on a person. It looks like such a minute amount...so small...and yet, it would produce this crying, pain and depression. Amazing!!!
It does further my resolve to keep going...I am still NOT having any back pain...and therefore, there is no reason for me to stay on Sub any longer. That was my issue...staying on it long enough for my back to improve, where I was not in constant pain all the time. That day has come and the time has come to taper.

Can anyone give me a time-frame of how long it will take me to stablilize here? When I might start to feel better and this depression lift? This is day 4 on 6 mgs (down from 8). I can make it if I have something to look forward to.
It's kind of like being in jail....if you know your out date, you can handle it :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:32 am 
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5th day beginning on 6 mgs....woke up at 4am and did 4 mgs....will do 2 mgs this afternoon around 2 pm. Woke up feeling much better mentally and physically. The arm/shoulder pain is much better than yesterday and the depression seems to have lifted somewhat...I am not dissolving into tears this morning....yay!

The past 5 days have really been an eye-opener for me. I humbly apologize for sounding so cocky in previous posts about tapering off Subs. I really thought I was going to be able to whittle these things down by 25% every week or so and then just jump. "All these folks going thru all this w/d....it's a mind thing"....yes, that's what I thought until I entered withdrawal at 6 mgs. For the past two days, my pupils have looked like pinheads, the crying would not stop, a feeling of despair, that I didn't know if I could do this, and the awful arm/shoulder aches...oh yes, the rumbly tummy thing too and NO appetite.
I can deal with the anxiety...have lived with it most of my life and I know where to put it...but the depression is another story. I'm so thankful to have this "taper thread" going to post and keep a journal of sorts.

Now, for the good news...which is that I awoke this morning doing better. It DOES NOT last forever! My problem now is all the 8 mg tabs I have left. My pill cutter will not cut them in half perfectly...one side is always a mg or so larger. I know it is crucial at this point to have exact measurements. Can anyone advise me on cutting these things into correct mgs? Should I use a straight edge razor blade? I read about crushing and dividing the crushed pill into equal piles. I know at some point I should probably just get the strips but I don't want to waste 50 pills!

Alright...seem to be stabilizing at 6 mgs....going to make sure I am fully grounded here before attempting another drop. Next drop will be to 5.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:11 am 
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Hey Aqua,

I'm glad to hear you're feeling better this morning. Gee whiz, you don't have to apologize for sounding cocky, that was part of your "Go For It" attitude and I loved it.

When you had spoke about being on the Drugs.com website and working with the the guy (I assume Robert325) who claims to have got hundreds of people off Suboxone, I didn't want to say it then, but I will now....there are several people on this forum who tried his method and couldn't do it. His method seems to work OK for people who have been on Suboxone for a very short time. If I remember correctly, he only took Suboxone for a couple of weeks and quit? Anyway, the 25% drops he recommends are too big, once you get lower, that's my opinion.

The 8mg tabs are notoriously hard to break evenly. I know you don't want to waste 50 pills, but the films are much easier to dose accurately with.

I'm glad to hear that you're going to stabilize at 6mg before going to 5mg. You're doing just great!!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:22 am 
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6th day on 6 mgs! Has a nice ring to it LOL

Thoughts for the day....not out of the woods yet....having some lingering depression but hey, I can handle it. It is aggravating and I do not like it but "no pain, no gain", right? Arm pain is GREATLY diminished (seems like most have the leg thingy going on...mine seems to be in arms/shoulders). Yes, I think I need to stay here at 6 mgs for a little while...maybe even as long as 3 weeks before dropping down to 5 mgs.
I read everyone's posts that are at .5 and I'm so jealous! Do you all realize how far you've come! It is something to be so proud of. My short term goal right now is just to get to 4 mgs/day. 1/2 of a tablet per day. Wow...that just seems amazing to me that I will soon be there being I was at 3 tabs/day for 3 years.

I guess today I am wishing so that I was where you are. I am wishing that I did not have to go through this to get where you are! (mg, ladder, rain, steve, romeo, doaq) I think back to just 1 month ago when I thought...this is going to be a piece of cake...I'll simply drop down 1/4 tablet every week or two and when I'm at 1/8 of a tab every other day, I'll just quit when I run out. Oh, the naivete' of the unlearned! Before I really knew how this drug worked.

One thing....when I get down to the .5 dose....if I have to stay there 6 months to stabilize, I am going to try not to sweat it. The object is to be as comfortable as possible during this process.

I do see now why folks relapse. This is not easy. The thing that keeps me going is looking at my family and knowing how much I want to be just me again. God Bless you all today.

Oh, hatmaker, if you read this....wanted to say hi. And, I'm afraid of offending those who choose to stay on Sub and I don't want to in any way! Like I said...a year ago, I thought I would be on this the rest of my life. I don't know why the "light bulb moment" happened to me with Subs (but my doctor had said that it might someday) but it did....and suddenly, I wanted off of it as much as I had not wanted off of it...does that make sense? :)
Hope you are doing well and don't stay a stranger!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:47 pm 
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ClearAqua wrote:
6th day on 6 mgs! Has a nice ring to it LOL

Thoughts for the day....not out of the woods yet....having some lingering depression but hey, I can handle it. It is aggravating and I do not like it but "no pain, no gain", right? Arm pain is GREATLY diminished (seems like most have the leg thingy going on...mine seems to be in arms/shoulders). Yes, I think I need to stay here at 6 mgs for a little while...maybe even as long as 3 weeks before dropping down to 5 mgs.
I read everyone's posts that are at .5 and I'm so jealous! Do you all realize how far you've come! It is something to be so proud of. My short term goal right now is just to get to 4 mgs/day. 1/2 of a tablet per day. Wow...that just seems amazing to me that I will soon be there being I was at 3 tabs/day for 3 years.

I guess today I am wishing so that I was where you are. I am wishing that I did not have to go through this to get where you are! (mg, ladder, rain, steve, romeo, doaq) I think back to just 1 month ago when I thought...this is going to be a piece of cake...I'll simply drop down 1/4 tablet every week or two and when I'm at 1/8 of a tab every other day, I'll just quit when I run out. Oh, the naivete' of the unlearned! Before I really knew how this drug worked.

One thing....when I get down to the .5 dose....if I have to stay there 6 months to stabilize, I am going to try not to sweat it. The object is to be as comfortable as possible during this process.

I do see now why folks relapse. This is not easy. The thing that keeps me going is looking at my family and knowing how much I want to be just me again. God Bless you all today.

Oh, hatmaker, if you read this....wanted to say hi. And, I'm afraid of offending those who choose to stay on Sub and I don't want to in any way! Like I said...a year ago, I thought I would be on this the rest of my life. I don't know why the "light bulb moment" happened to me with Subs (but my doctor had said that it might someday) but it did....and suddenly, I wanted off of it as much as I had not wanted off of it...does that make sense? :)
Hope you are doing well and don't stay a stranger!


I too look at my family and realize that being on subs is not where I want to be in the long term aspect. But I think you are doing fantastic! Your attitude is wonderful, and I can hear in your tone that you are going to get there, and be just fine. You have a great outlook and it is soooo inspiring! I look to your posts to keep me going as well, so I admire you greatly and appreciate your words very much!! I think your plan sounds great, and successful!! Just keep doing what you are doing, the way time goes so fast, for me anyway, it will be here before you know it!! Just stay as positive as you can and be kind to yourself! It's hard for me to remember that part, being kind to myself, but the more I try to reassure myself that it's all going to work out in the end, the better I feel. Even if we were to stay a little longer then planned, we'll still be feeling great, which is a key for me to remember. Feeling good, is what makes the household run better, and helps me to stay sober and never want to take a pill again. So I wish you continued success as I know you will do so great!! You're a wonderful person from what I see, so give yourself a big pat on the back for coming as far as you have already!! Big giant hugs to you!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:39 pm 
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BIG HUG right back, rain!

I did another 4 mgs this afternoon for a total of 8 mgs today. I had been at 6 mgs since last Thurs and the melancholy was great. I will do 6 mgs tomorrow, 8 the next day for a while until it feels "right". I think I came down to 6 too darn fast. I was going to try and tough it out and decided to take my own advice....

"This is not a race...do what you have to do to be comfortable"

I must remember that just a little over a month ago I was doing 24 mgs/day. My doctor told me that most patients would take 3-4 months to drop what I did in a month's time.
I WAS NOT COMFORTABLE. I feel like going back and forth between 6 and 8 until I stabilize at 7 mgs is the right thing to do. I learned something in this and that's a good thing. Never again will I go down by just whittling the dosage down. I will always do the staggered taper from here on out....higher dose one day, lower dose the next...back and forth until I stabilize.

I'm hugging myself here :) It's ok...it's ok...it's ok....!

Thank you, rain!


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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