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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Hat, I really appreciate that info. I'm hoping that once I'm off Sub, the fibro will recede into only flares, but I guess I will just have to see, right? If it's bad, I'll be looking for some sort of treatment. A person can only live with so much pain. How weird that it helped you so much to do the low dose chemo....you kinda killed two birds with one stone. I agree with fibro is an autoimmune thing. My blood work is always a little funky in that respect (elevated white cells and rheumatoid factor).

ClearAqua, you have a great attitude. Keep it up! The w/d symptoms with go away very quickly at the level you're at. For me, at the higher levels, I was typically over any discomfort worth mentioning after five days max. I think it's good that you are pushing it at these levels, and then you can slow down later. If I knew when I started what I know now, I would have pushed it more at the higher amounts. Hindsight's 20/20, right?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Thanks, ladder! Yes, I think that it's more do-able to drop fast at the higher doses and then once you get down to 4mgs, start taking it S-L-O-W to minimize discomfort.
Haha...my attitude is positive because I am so excited! I didn't know if I was ever going to be able to stop Sub...it had helped me with so many things...cravings, pain relief, depression....and I really felt it was a one-stop cure-all for me. To get to a point where I feel ready to jump off is a happy time for me.

I know that hatmaker and many others want to stay on it the rest of their lives and I was right there with them a year ago. And, that is A-OK! Sub is a great drug and they are looking at it for other things such as pain mngmt and depression. My doctor said it is showing to be useful for many things. My belief is to do what is right for you!

ladder, I too suffer from fibro outbreaks at times. My doctor seems to think it could stem from the hydro addiction. Opiate addiction changes the way the brain responds to pain. We feel pain more acutely than non-addicts. Once my brain has healed, he says I may no longer have that. He looked at my husband and said "I bet you get tired of her saying she hurts all the time!" It's like he had read our minds! He explained how the brain changes and the sensitivity to pain that we have where it all made perfect sense. He said that where my husband could have pains and not even really notice them, that everything was "heightened" for me because my brain could no longer respond to the pain positively. It sure made a lot of sense....all I know is I am so looking forward to having my brain do it's own thing again :)

I want to say to ladder, hatmaker and romeo...thank you all for responding to my posts and the votes of confidence. It means so much. To have strangers be so kind...it says a lot....people thing the world is going crazy and no one cares anymore...well, just get on the internet and ask for help somewhere. There are still awfully kind, caring people in this world. Thanks ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Hi ya Miss Aqua Lady,

Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress.

You said something in your last reply that I happen to have some experience with. You said, "Opiate addiction changes the way the brain responds to pain. We feel pain more acutely than non-addicts. Once my brain has healed, he says I may no longer have that."

I don't think I mentioned this on this post yet, my opiate abuse stemmed from an accident years ago. I fell out of a tree and crushed both ankles, broke both legs and broke my left arm too....yeah, that was a crappy day!! Anyway, it took 7 surgeries over the years to put my ankles back together again to the point where I now walk fine. I promise, I'm going to make an important point here any minute!! All the while I was on opiates my ankles bothered me significantly. Once I quit Suboxone, I would say after a couple of months, I noticed my ankles didn't bother me anymore???? I remember thinking WTF?? For the past month and a half I have been faithfully walking 1.5 miles per day around our subdivision and my ankles don't bother me at all??? Once in a while, if I have been standing a lot at work, they get to bothering me a little. On those days I come home and take 2 advil and those 2 advil knock the pain out completely.

So, in my case, I would certainly have to agree with your doctor about how opiates changed the way my brain perceived pain and exaggerated it.

I hope when you and Laddertripper ( :lol: ) quit suboxone that you get the same results that I did!!


Last edited by Romeo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:45 pm 
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For some people on high doses of opiates (like with me in active addiction), they experience hyperalgesia. The more pain meds they take the worse their pain gets. Before I started sub, my fibro pain was at a 10 all the damn time. When I started on sub, my pain almost immediately dropped to between a 5-8. I tried lowering my dose a few times (people kept telling me I didn't need the up to 24 mg dose I was on), but it didn't address my pain as well. So for me, the less suboxone I seem to take the more pain I experience. But it was the exact opposite when I was abusing full agonists. I guess it just goes to show you that we all are different, especially when it comes to chronic pain. I do hope when you all go off sub that your pain subsides somewhat. Wouldn't that be great?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:05 pm 
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hat and romeo....LOL, there is one thing for certain...we are all so different!

romeo, I sure hope I follow in your footsteps! I would love for my pain to be at a level 1-3 most days or gasp! NO PAIN AT ALL...I could live with that! Your experience coming off Subs is so positive and I thank you for sharing that here....all of us trying to come off need to hear positive stories. Yours was a fall from a tree...mine was a fall down a flight of steps. How old were you when that happened? Personally, I think you're lucky to be alive...you could've broken your neck!
hat...hyperalgesia, yes, that's what the doc called it. Sub always did work very well for my pain....I am surprised that I am not being bothererd by any yet. Am strongly hoping that my back has recovered enough after 3 years that I WON'T be in that type of pain again. I am glad that it works so well for you. Chronic pain is so hard to live with ...day after day after day...it made me so depressed.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:52 am 
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Yes, chronic pain absolutely and totally sucks!! I do get a little bummed about the fibro thing sometimes. My mom has it and apparently my grandma did too. Unfortunately, even though my mom isn't a wimp or a whiner, I never believed her and I resented her when she got taken out by the fibro pain. Isn't that shitty of me? I just assumed it was some sort of mental weakness or something on her part, since I couldn't SEE anything wrong with her. Then, I got the exact same symptoms she'd had years earlier at almost the same age, and I was so clueless that I went through a boatload of tests trying to figure out what in the bleepin' hell was wrong with me...terrified that it was M.S, or Lupus or something horrid. Finally, I got diagnosed with the fibro and realized how real it actually was and put the whole puzzle together and told my neurologist about my mom. Of course, he was like "Why did you not tell me that!!?" It honestly did not occur to me that it was the same thing my mom has. I talked to my mom today about it and she kinda brought me up a little. She's reassuring. She's been able to avoid getting bad flares by just living healthy and getting enough rest. She goes through tough times now and then, but for the most part, it's not bad. She thinks once I'm through getting off the Sub and getting my receptors normalized again, I'll be able to live with very manageable pain. I'm crossing my fingers!! I know part of the pain I'm getting right now is absolutely from the fibro because it's always, always my neck (OUCH!!) and my elbows (BIGGER OUCH!!). I think it feels like cavity-type, nerve pain. It can hurt worse than I remember labor hurting....and that's pretty darn bad. Right now, it's pretty under control though.

I'm so grateful to have the people on here, because it just helps tremendously when you are having a bad day and struggling with a ton of doubt to hear someone else say "It will be okay. Just keep going." I appreciate it a times a million!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:20 am 
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ClearAqua,

I was 29 years old when I fell out of the tree. I was 22ft up in the air, on an extension ladder, with a chainsaw! :shock:

The branch I cut fell down, hit the ground and shot back at the base of the ladder like a spring and it knocked the ladder out from under me. At that moment I remember thinking OH CRAP! It was like gravity took a second or two to kick in and it felt like I was suspended in the air for a second to ponder the fact that I had a chainsaw in my right hand, I was 22 ft in the air, I was home alone (my wife was at church) and I was about to start falling and was going to hit the ground doing 90 miles per hour!! Needless to say, it wasn't the fall that bothered me, it was hitting the ground!! :lol:

Crawling 100ft back to the house with broken legs and a broken arm was a damn chore too. Finally got into the house, called the ambulance and the ambulance couldn't find our house. We live a few miles out of town, back in the 'sticks'. I ended up hanging up on the 911 lady and called my friend who lived across town, told him what happened and told him to please find that stupid ambulance and show them where I live. I was about 45 minutes laying on our living room floor waiting for the ambulance to arrive. My friend walked in the house before the ambulance dudes and my friend looked at my legs and ankles and said Oh My God as he covered his eyes. I had 45 minutes to come to terms with the fact that my feet were pointing the wrong way, he didn't! :lol:

Yeah, I could have easily died that day had my body started rotating when the ladder got knocked out from under me. Somehow, I was able to remain upright and my feet, ankles and lower legs took all the impact. Although some of my friends say landing on my head would have been best because I would have bounced!! Yeah, nice friends, eh!! LOL

I would be really curious to hear more about your 'encounter' with the stairs, if you feel like sharing?

Oh Yeah, earlier when I said that I hope that you and ladder have no more pain issues when you come off suboxone, I really meant to say that I hope everyone who is on or off suboxone has their pain go away. You guys know what I mean!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:58 pm 
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WOW, Romeo. I will repeat this...you are lucky to have lived. I'm glad you did :) You sure went through a lot in recovery...and a very valid reason to be dependent on pain meds. And now look at you! You are the goal I aspire to...to be Sub free :)

I had a very steep long staircase leading from my attic downstairs. I slid on the top step and started down...after the 3rd bounce, I don't remember anything until I woke up. I was sprawled across the floor on my stomach with my legs still up on the steps behind me. I could feel something warm trickling down my back. I was addled but the pain was so great, I didn't think I could move my legs...I thought I had broken my back. I realize now that I flipped coming down and went out cold. After I kind of got my "thinking" back, I crawled to a phone and called husband. Went to the doc...where I was in such pain, I just asked for pain pills and told them I would come back later for x-rays (they let me do that!). By the next day, there was a "river" like bruise down my lower back and I thought I had only broken my coccyx, which I had, couldn't sit for about 2 months. Coming back later never happened....I started down the road to pain pills. I didn't take them all the time, only when my back would bother me...I would take them a few weeks and then drop off and pick them back up a month or two later.
Finally, after 3 years, the pain was so bad, I was having trouble sleeping, getting out of bed and limping. Finally had an MRI done. I had a ruptured disc and 4 herniated discs and a sac joint that was out of place. Had surgery, which didn't relieve but 50% of the pain and then came the Lortabs...after 10 months, I asked to come off of them and couldn't. I was dependent. And then came Sub...

So that's my story...not very interesting but just goes to show another reason why we all end up here. I am 53 years old and sure didn't ever think that I would be here. I was so med-phobic my entire life! Wouldn't take anything without looking it up LOL. Yet, here I am and I'm very determined that now is the time to stop.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:08 am 
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Yikes ClearAqua, you're lucky you didn't break YOUR neck too!!

How in the hell could you go to the hospital, after being rendered unconscious, and they didn't keep you there? Even if you went to your family doctor....I'm astonished they gave you pain meds without doing some x-rays or SOMETHING?

I see where you say you broke your coccyx.....I couldn't figure out what in the world a coccyx was? I had to google search it....coccyx--aka---tailbone....now it makes sense as to why you couldn't sit for two months!! Then, it wasn't until 3 years later you discovered just how much damage you did.....damn dude....that's awful.

I see where you say you understand how I could become dependent on my pain meds, well, it was a whole lot more than being dependent. I was a functioning addict before I fell out of the tree. It started with weed at age 17, graduated to coke and then to pain pills at age 29. I was buying them off the street, snorting OC's, spending who knows how much money on a daily basis, etc. I was on pain pills for 10 years, I was on Suboxone for 3 years. If you're doing the math, I'm 43 years old.

Thanks for sharing your story ClearAqua, I thought it was very interesting.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:12 am 
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March 1 - 24 mgs/day
March 7 - 16 mgs/day
March 21 - 12 mgs/day
March 24 - 10 mgs/day

Started my 10 mgs/day yesterday...so far, so good. Just a tiny bit feeling it this morning but I'm about to go take a walk and start making some of my own stuff! I plan to stay at 10 mgs/day for 4-5 days and then drop to 8 mgs/day.
At 8 mgs, I'm going to start slowing down. It has been easy to drop from the higher dosages...surprisingly so...I am pleasantly surprised!
I see my Sub doctor next Friday and I am looking forward to telling him I only need 30 tabs for the next month....a big drop from the 90 I always got!

Some may think, Wow...this was fast! And yes, it was. After a LOT of reading, I kept reading over and over that the drop from high doses down to say, 4 mgs, was the easy part for most. And, I agree. Yes, I feel some w/d symptoms but honestly, they are not bad at all....very, very tolerable. I think for me, the excitement and happiness that I am getting to come off Sub, outweighs any symptomsl They are not bad! I tear up a little easier than usual :) (no sad movies or melancholy music right now) and my limbs are just a little "buzzy", I feel like I could sleep a little more...and just a little bit of a tension headache. I am pushing thru these symptoms with staying busy, a good hot shower in the morning and before bed, and walking, as I know in 5-7 days, they will pass.

Once I get to 8 mgs next week, I'm going to go down a "crumb" every 7-14 days (really listening to my body). I read a really good suggestion somewhere about getting one of those "7 day pill boxes" and finely cutting your sub tablet to crumbs and keep them in the pill box. I'm going to do that as they really need to stay put at that point to keep from breaking being tossed around in a purse.

Anyway, down from 24mgs to 10 mgs since Mar 1!!! No terrible w/d symptoms! Sailing right along on this taper and I am really excited about it :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:20 am 
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Good Morning, Romeo...just now saw your reply!

Ok, now I see your "path of addiction"...nice way to put it, don't you think? :)

We all had a different route here but we're HERE and how we deal with it is what matters. I understand now why you had a prob with the meds from the sore throat. Always remember that NOTHING is worth going through this again....nothing. I would seriously have to think hard about EVER putting an opiate in my mouth again, once I get off Subs. It would have to be beacuse of surgery or something like that.

I think of all the money, time and just lost moments that I have given to this and it tends to make me angry. I think everything we go through is for a reason, though...I'm already figuring what my reason was here :) To be a kinder person in regards to others' problems and not be judgemental.

You know the old saying...."Until you've walked a mile in the other man's shoes...."


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:43 pm 
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2nd day on 10 mgs....woke up this morning with some leg twitching :) Good news is...today, that "weepy" feeling is GONE! I feel really, really good. I'm staying here for 4-5 more days and then going on down to 8mgs/day....probably mid-week next week. From there on starts the "slower" taper.....taking a crumb off of an 8 mg every week or so.

If you are on a high dosage, 16 - 24 mgs/day, I want you to know that based on my personal experience, this has not been bad at all! I have been on Subs since Oct 2007 so I'm considered a long-term user....with 3 years of that on 24 mgs/day for pain management. Do not be afraid to start your taper if you're looking to get off Subs....I have had minimal discomfort thus far...absolutely nothing that kept me from doing anything that I do each day. Boldly go for it!

March 1 - 24 mgs/day
March 7 - 16 mgs/day
March 21 - 12mgs/day
March 25 - 10 mgs/day


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Go ClearAqua, Go ClearAqua!! :D

Your experience, thus far, mirrors almost every other experience I have seen as far tapering from a high dose to a lower dose. I think, like you, once you get around the 8mg mark it would probably be wisest to slow things down a little bit....I think you have a really good plan and even more importantly, I think you have a GREAT attitude towards all of this. You Rock!!

As Neil Young so eloquently put it, "Keep on Rockin' in the free world!!"


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Thanks, Romeo :) Hope you are having a wonderful weekend.

It's all about attitude...but then, you will not be successful if you are NOT ready to get off. This has truly been an eye-opener for me as a year ago, I would've told you I would be on Subs forever. If you are "wondering" if you should get off, you probably shouldn't. In my experience, I KNEW it was time to start a taper. I am really pleased to be able to post a positive experience for others, as I said I was going to be very honest.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:26 pm 
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March 1 - 24 mgs/day
March 7 - 16 mgs/day
March 21 - 12 mgs/day
March 24 - 10 mgs/day
March 29 - 8 mgs/day

Today is 2nd day on 8 mgs...doing fine. The "weepies" are here again (where I cry at the drop of a hat!) Of course, it's a cold, gloomy day where I live and I don't think that helps! Physically, I am really good...not pains, no stomach cramps, no headache, no "buzzing" in arms and legs and I walked probably a mile or so today. I'm going to walk more later this afternoon. I keep repeating to myself "I am really doing this!" Lots of prayer for strength :)
Feels so good to be back to my original induction dose of 1/2 am and 1/2 pm. I am having no back pain. Have I really needed this high dosage all these years? Did my back partially heal and I didn't even know?

I miscounted my pills...I have 54.5 8 mgs left. I do not intend to ever have another prescription filled. I will stay on the 8 mgs for 7 days or so and begin the slow drop down. I need surgery in the future and want to be completely off Sub before I do that for at least 30 days.

Just checking in my taper journal today. Wanted to let folks know that this is not bad...not bad at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Good Job Aqua....................you have definitely come a long way in just a short period of time GIVE YOURSELF A PAT ON THE BACK ...... :) ..............it hasent been that bad for me so far either...... its good to hear positive stories :):)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:56 pm 
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Thanks, mg! I really appreciate that!

Although I knew 2 people who had come off Sub relatively easy, they had not been on it near as long as me (3.5 years). Everywhere I turned on the internet, I kept reading scary stories. I had a really good attitude going into this...in fact, I almost welcomed w/d symptoms as a sign my brain was coming off Subs! So far, it has been really good and I want people to know that. Done properly...and letting your body get used to the new lower dose before dropping on down...I do not believe this has to be a bad time.

There is a gentleman posting at drugs.com forum who claims to have gotten hundreds of folks off Subs doing the slow taper with virtually no ill effects. I am taking what he says to heart! I see my doctor tomorrow and he is supportive of me...can't wait to show him how well I've done. He wanted me to stay at 16 this whole month and I'm at half that!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:09 pm 
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I meant to tell you I too am a mother, my kids are 23 and 26.. the older one leaves for afghanistan april 19th he comes back from ft bliss next week, my baby ( always will be my babies) is also a recovering addict and he is in a rehab center, been clean 8 months so far :)
I too was horrified at some of the stories I read about coming off subs and I made a conscious choice that I was going to try to make the best of it and listen to my body

My dr ( who I do think is good) advised me yesterday to stay off the blogs bwahahahahaha of course he did.... I told him when he is weaning off subs with me then i will only listen to him but for now this site is helpful

he did prescribe me colonadine but at very low dose because of other blood pressure issues i have, but it does help that and ambien make a big difference now that I am at .5 mg, but outside of feeling like I have the flu its not that bad.... I cant stress the excercise part enough ( I am studying to be a personal trainer ) my real job is sales and I have been with the same company for 12 yrs now so I too have a busy life and I dont get the luxury of laying down and complaining about wd pain........

Thanks again for sharing


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Hi Aqua,

Wow, 8mg already....way to go!! I see where you have the weepies, Uh Huh, I know what you're talking about. You'll learn how to deal with them soon enough, until then, get a bunch of Kleenex ready!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:14 pm 
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I'm hanging in there, romeo...I know they will pass...lasted about 3 days at the last drop in dosage. The sun is supposed to be shining tomorrow...that always helps!
mg, I do not have the luxury of going to bed for a week or two, either. I have a full time job and a teenager still at home. I wish I had done this earlier but did not feel the need to...now that the need has hit, it's hard to be patient! Everybody needs to move at their own pace.

Haha...my doc told me to stay off the internet too! It's hard....you are so curious as to how others are doing. I have found some positive stories...and if I am reading a story and it turns negative, I move on. I'm not going to read it...don't want it in my head. I am getting off Subs and I'm going to have an easy time of it...there! A lot of it IS your mind...stay positive, stay focused and know that all w/d symptoms eventually pass. Do not push yourself to do more than is comfortable at any given time. Listen to yourself :)


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