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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:36 am 
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I was taking 25-45 10/650 hydrocodone a day... at 45 and not getting high I decided to save my liver and myself. I have been on the hydro for about four years, at the higher doses for the last 9 months. I am 26 and really didn't want to have the monkey on my back anymore. Trying to start a career and a life after college while constanly either in withdrawl or high hasn't been easy on the hydrocodone, and soma's when I didn't have enough hydro's.

I'm on day 3 of the suboxone. My doctor gave me 16mg to take as "my dose" and he wants me to stay at this for atleast 3 months... It seems high compared to what I have seen on this board. I don't have any cravings, I don't feel bad, and I don't have any withdrawls. I have kicked a habit before (speed) fairly easily when I was about 20, but I could NOT kick this.

So while I am not sure if the suboxone is too strong for a bad hydro habit, I know that I saved my liver, I will beable to focus on other aspects of my life, and I will have ALOT MORE money to spend since I won't be eating pills all time. I am assuming if I haven't been able to kick this in four years, and I built my tolerance up to 45 dang pills, then I probably needed this. My doc thought so...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:20 am 
Hi Tekno! Welcome to the forum! I am fairly new to Suboxone also, just finishing my first month. My doctor started me at 24mg/day. Like you, I found this forum and started looking around and thought my dose sounded too high. I too was taking a good amount of hydrocodone and /or oxycodone (around 5-10 10mg/day) when I found out about Suboxone.
I actually had been to treatment (outpatient) and done some step work, etc and gotten a little bit of clean time. But quickly relapsed as the cravings and the misery of withdrawals, PAWS, etc were just too much for me! Anyhow, at the worst point of my addiction I was taking more like 15-20 pills a day. By the time I started Sub I had 3-4 years of opiate use.
Back to the dosing issue - As I said, doc Rx 24mg/day but also had this other parameter there that was pretty flexible - he said to take the next dose "if you need it" and that I could take extra doses "if you need it" as long as I don't exceed 32mg/day and dose no closer than every 2 hours. Because of that flexibility of his instructions and because of what I have learned by reading on this forum, I have kind of settled in at 12mg/day. That seems to be enough to keep my cravings at a minimum and keeps by withdrawal symptoms at bay. I will see my doc again next week and discuss with him. I don't think your 16mg/day seems all that high to start with. He may plan on dropping your dose pretty soon, just trying to get you stabilized and feeling good during this initial phase. But, yeah, after reading some - I was thinking I should be on no more than 8mg/day and should taper down pretty quickly from there. I started getting scared about eventually having to come off Suboxone and how horrible it would be, etc, etc. But if you'll spend some more time on this forum and make sure you read the doctor's blog and posts, I think you will feel more comfortable with your treatment. I have found the answers to every question I have had on this forum!
Glad you're feeling good! Keep posting so we'll know how you're doing!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:59 am 
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Hope the Suboxone is going well for you tekno. I was started on 32mg the first day but then rapidly tapered down to 2mg after 8 days. I'm on day 11 and still on 2mg a day, deciding on whether or not to stop. In your case, 16mg/day x 3 months does seem like a pretty big dose, but your MD knows best I guess. I had a bad hydrocodone habit as well (norco 10/325), was popping close to 60-70 pills a day before I detoxed with Suboxone. Obviously it did wonders for my withdrawals, but now that I'm taking such a low dose, I'm starting to feel the withdrawal symptoms, mainly the dysphoria. But I'm assuming it's the withdrawal from the original norco and not the Suboxone. Anyways, keep us posted on your progress, and cheers to getting off the hydros!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:47 pm 
May I ask you, Opiate Dependent MD, why you have chosen to drop down to 2mg so quickly and are feeling that you will try to taper and DC your Suboxone rather quickly? As I mentioned in my previous post I, like Tekno, have questions about being on "too much" and concerns about the relationship between how much and how long to be on Suboxone in terms of how difficult it will be when the time comes to stop it. In other threads on this forum I have shared more of my story, but in a nutshell, my career of 18 years has been in Nursing. Because of my addiction, I have found myself in the horrible situation of either staying on Suboxone long-term and pursuing another line of work, or discontinuing it more quickly and working on getting my license back and getting back to work as an RN. There are obviously a lot of other considerations involved, but that's kind of the bottom line. I assume the "MD" in your username means that you are a physician? If so, does that have anything to do with your desire to come off Sub quickly? Just curious. You sure aren't obligated to answer but I'd love to communicate with you more, especially if you are in a similar situation as me. Obviously, we are all different, but somehow all the same in terms of our addiction. I have found everyone on this forum thus far to be so encouraging and helpful.
You mentioned that you've had some withdrawal symptoms being down to 2mg/day. I bet so! I swear (may just be psychosomatic) that I can feel that terrible leg pain and RLS thing after just dropping to 8mg/day for a few days in a row! Oh, and the dysphoria! Of course, given my current circumstances, who wouldn't be dysphoric!!
I would love to continue to hear how you are feeling as you go along on the 2mg/day, or if you decide to adjust your dose back up or whatever.
Wishing you all the best on your journey!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:32 pm 
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Thanks setmefree for the message. I'm on 2mg right now because I went to a detox facility that uses Suboxone, and the idea of that facility is to be drug free upon discharge. However, some people were encouraged to stay on it for maintenance, as I was. I was hesitant to the idea, but I have seen first hand now from my own experience how it basically eliminates the cravings. I was started on 32mg on the first day then tapered down to 2mg after 8 days. I've been taking 2mg/day for the past 3 days now, and I can definitely start to feel the w/d 18-20 hrs after my last dose every AM. I'm really in a huge dilemma, on the upside, I know if I'm on it, I'm hopeful it will dramatically reduce any chances of a relapse. But at the same time, I keep hearing horror stories of people being on it for a number of months/years and then trying to come off it, and suffering extreme w/d sx's. But the main reason why I'm leaning towards stopping it all together is because yes, I am a physician, and I'm not sure how it will affect my medical license if I'm on it. I know other docs on opiates for chronic pain and because of this, the medical boards in their states have put many restrictions on them, in regards to work hours, call, etc. I'd definitely like to get your input on the matter since you're in healthcare as well. Another thing, I'm not sure if these w/d sx's I'm experiencing are from the Suboxone, or from the original Norco I was taking (which I stopped 11 days ago). You can read more about that in the "my story" section on this forum. Be well.


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 Post subject: thanks guys...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:53 pm 
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I appreciate the anwers, I feel better about the dose. I am guessing that the doctor probably looked at how much I was taking, along with the time I was on them.

What he did was made me take a 8mg tab in the office at about 11:00am. After 1 hour I was still having anxiety, I was pretty restless, along with some physical wd's. Not as bad as before obviously, but i had slight chills along with a fast pulse and stomach cramps/diharrea...

The doc came back, gave me another 4mg and they went away pretty fast. He told me to take the other half later that day. I feel good about this and I guess that matters more than anything. I think it is pretty great actually, off of the dumb pills and not wanting to get high is great.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:00 pm 
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Btw, just read your story setmefree, very moving, and inspirational. I was in a treatment facility a year ago in Virginia and I can't tell you how many nurses I met in your same situation. As the years are going by, medical boards, nursing boards, pharmacy boards are all beginning to really understand the disease concept of addiction, and because of this it is definitely possible to continue working in the field. I met a number of anesthesiologists and other docs that had been to treatment numerous times, and their medical boards have still allowed them to practice, obviously under strict monitoring programs. I don't know the policy for the nursing boards, but is it possible to work as an RN while being on Suboxone? I believe it would be okay to do so, but I'm not familiar with their regulations. What dose are you on now and how is it working for you? As much as I want to get off of it, I can't tell you how much of a blessing it is to go about your day and not constantly think about those damn pain killers, which we all thought was our "higher power".

Tekno, how are you progressing? Is the 16mg/day working for you? I'd love to hear about your experience and see how you're holding up.

Warmest regards everyone.


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 Post subject: jeez
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:25 pm 
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MD,
The dose-program is going well. Painkillers seem like a non issue, I am not craving anything. It is funny how I started out not taking soma for the longest time, and when I built up my extreme tolerance to these I slowly added them to get high. Now I don't want either.

One thing that is bumming me out big time is my recent ex girl, we broke up a week ago after a four year run, is the ONLY person that is not supportive and the ONLY person that hasn't had anything good to say to me, and she refuses to understand that her being extremely rude doesn't help with my recovery or my past cravings. Her constant negative attitude and rude behavior seriously drug me deeper into my addiction over the last couple years. I had to be "numb" to be around her. I am obviously sad we are broke up, but very glad I am not being kicked in the teeth by a crazy girl every day, BUT I am VERY sad she doesn't give a shit about my huge step.

Maybe I don't need to look for acceptance from such a negatie person... but it is funny when your drug dealer is happy for you but your chick doesn't give a shit. hah


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:12 pm 
MD - read your "story" and that gave me a good understanding of where you are at this point. Not that much different a story than my own and so many others as well. It does suck to be in a profession that views "recovery" in only one way. The nursing board in my state requires compliance with their Peer Assistance Program parameters which include among many other things, complete abstinence. You can't take anything other than plain tylenol, motrin or aleve. Nothing and I mean nothing else! So Suboxone is an absolute No Way! I really feel in my gut, that I don't have a chance in hell of staying clean for any length of time without Sub. I could never do it before and I don't see it happening now. If anything my life is more stressful now than ever before and those kinds of feelings are (in part) what led to my drug abuse. On top of the job/career loss, financial issues, humiliation, etc., I am now dealing with the fact that husband has decided to withdraw his love and support for me!! What a kick in the ass! When I finally find Suboxone and a way to get some good healthy recovery going, he decides he's "just too mad at me to know if he wants to stay married to me or not"! Mind you, I was honest with him about my one relapse since my first attempts at sobriety last September. In fact he was giving me some percocet and lortabs himself!! What the heck! Very quickly, I realized that I was gonna end up right back in hell again with my addiction, came clean with the husband about the fact that I had started getting some pain meds from sources other than what he was giving me, and went and got myself on Suboxone. Immediately after starting Sub, I was feeling stronger and better than I had in years. Within a week of starting it, he drops his bomb on me!
By that time, I had voluntarily withdrawn from the Peer Assistance Program and surrendered my nursing license. I can't earn a decent income at all at this point and he's threatening to divorce me. We have been married 15 years! And to top it all off, I forgave him and moved on with him early in our marriage after he put me through way more hell than I ever thought about putting him through, with his OWN drug addiction and alcoholism!! I had to give him multiple "chances" to get clean and sober before he finally did, but apparently he aint returning the favor.
So I find myself in a big bind right now, but I told him and I'm telling all of you - first priority for me is my sobriety and right now that means I have got to stay on Suboxone.
Sorry for the rant, but I sure feel better!!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:13 pm 
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tekno, I can relate, in some way. I had a fiance who supported me 100% through my whole rehab experience and recovery, which lasted about 8 months before I relapsed. She left me before I relapsed, and I'll be honest when I say it was the most difficult thing I've ever been through. This past June we would have been married. But in my experience, don't look for acceptance from people. It won't work, didn't for me. I know it sounds lame, but what finally worked for me was letting go, and just surrendering myself. I have this disease, and I'll have it for the rest of my life. I went crazy trying to make loved ones understand it, they never do, and they never will. I had to let that go, when I finally did, I finally started to focus on myself. Wish you the best.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:19 pm 
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setmefree, rant on! I know it makes me feel a hell of a lot better. I'm really sorry to hear about all this and I hope things work out. I was just mentioning to tekno that I lost my fiance to this disease and it was the worst thing I ever went through. But you said it best, you gotta keep your recovery/sobriety number 1 priority. If things do change, I hope they change for the better. Give yourself a break, because you've been able to keep this disease in remission now. Keep that head up, cheers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:45 pm 
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MD,
I am sorry to hear about your fiance. But I am glad to hear your getting better... Can you practice on the suboxone? I have been toying with the idea of going to be a PA...

What is funny is that my girl was a BSN, dingy as hell (bleach blonde) but very book smart. She was awsome at school, I had hopes of putting her through school to become a nurse prac then go back for my law or PA degree when she started moving.

I know now that book smarts only gets you so far in life. She had zero compassion for the people in her life, she had compassion for her trauma patients, but zero for me and her family. It stings big time, even though I have known how crazy she was all along. Maybe I just thought she gave a shit more. Oh well... two bad habits down the drain together!

I agree with you on being powerless to our addictions. You just got out of recovery right? Are you going to any meetings? I went to one last december, but just wasn't ready I guess. Plus it was a AA meeting and I felt goofy saying I was a Alcoholic, and having withdrawls during the meeting didn't help.


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 Post subject: relationships
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:45 pm 
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man, that's the breaks you guys. sometimes it's sad, but relationships are a huge part of getting clean. a lot of relationships don't make it. it does hurt when the people you love don't want to see you get well. they give you hell for all of the sh!t you put them through, they "forgive" you but keep piling on the guilt...no wonder we relapse over and over again. in some cases it really feels like they would prefer us to be sick...that way we'll always need them! to put up with us, cuz we're so sick, to be our suppliers of drugs, and to feed the need for drama, etc. when recovery becomes our #1 priority, the relationship has to move over. when we get clean, we also do a lot of work on changing ourselves too, and some people just can't handle it. another thing i think plays a role is that when we get clean, we have no choice but to actually face reality! where we used to rely on escaping life in a chemical-induced stupor, now we are faced with actually feeling our feelings, and they aren't always in favor of the relationship.

hope y'all don't mind me putting in my .02! i wish all of you the best of luck in this process and look forward to hearing more of your stories!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:23 pm 
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dirtysouth, those are some true, true words. I remember driving one day soon after I started Suboxone and the thought popped into my mind that I wasn't sure if my relationship would survive me getting off drugs. And it was, and still is, hard. But we've been together for 9 years and have a daughter, so that gives us motivation to try to work it out. He got well too, so that helped a lot...it just took him a little longer than me.

But yeah, some things that seemed acceptable in my old life just aren't acceptable to me anymore. And to stay clean you have to be true to yourself and honest about that stuff. Honestly, those were skills I didn't really have before I got on opiates, so I have addiction and my recovery process to thank for learning how to live a more authentic life. Not saying it's always fun or easy, but definitely better than the hell I was in before.

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 Post subject: Re: relationships
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Dirtysouth,
You aren't from Htown are you?
Very true... I agree with everything you said. I put her through lies about my addiction, but she put me through emotional HELL before I ever lied to her or hid the pills. She loved to be my "crutch" and loved to start drama. I went over there after two days on the Sub to get my electronics, so I was there forever trying to unwire everything and pack it nicely.

The whole time she was trying to pick a fight with me, and I tried to explain that it was stressing me out and to let me get my stuff and go. She tried and tried... when I left I was stressed for hours.


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 Post subject: Re: relationships
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:09 pm 
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htown?? lol, the only thing that comes to mind is herointown. so i must not be from there then, huh?? :lol: i grew up in tampa, but now i live in the panhandle, less than a mile from the beach on the emerald coast. aww, the beach is so lovely.

well i sure do hope that you were able to get ALL of your stuff out tekno, sounds like you don't need any more of what she's selling!

and to diary, i understand why you would want to work on the relationship instead of just scrapping it, kids and years of history are the factors that can be way hard to overcome.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:40 am 
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Dirtysouth,
Htown is slang for Houston, TX... That is where I am from...

I picked up some nice DJ gear yesturday, everything I got I had talked these guys down to half of the original selling price. I got it all hooked up and started spinning some nice house beats.

When I was on dope, I sold all my stuff and used half of the money to buy some car audio equipment. The other half I blew it. It is SO SO SO much easier to mix dance music when your not on hydro's. If I would get the least bit high on hydro's it took me forever to beat match each song, I could do it but it was hard.

Now it seems simple, probably because I am using my whole brain.

For those that don't know, when mixing techno music (house music) you have to match the beats per minute of the next track EXACTLY to the track your playing by ear. Then while mixing you have to know what is going to happen during both songs to make a fluid like mix.

Well, I am happy. I can mix again. Now all I need is some updated music and I am ready to record my "Sober Mix"


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:55 am 
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hey tekno. i knew it had to be outside of FL, lol. i've never been to houston, or texas for that matter. thanks for explaining the mixing thing. i know zero about it. it does sound interesting. and i can see why you would want some new music. a lot of my old techno i can't listen to anymore. brings back memories of blowing up on e. anyway, i always wondered what the person was doing and what they were listening to on the headphones. how do you match up the beats per minute? techno is so fast as it is? do you actually like count in your head?? or after a while do you just get a feel for it? gawd, on second thought, perhaps its too complicated for me to understand! i'm more of a hands-on learner, lol. anyway, i'm glad you are back in the game!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:39 am 
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dirtysouth,

You count beats to mix the songs together, you count phrases in the song and mix a phrase in one song to a phrase in the other. Basically so when the song changes, both change at the same time so the timing is right and it sounds like one song. It is basically impossible to do correctly when high, and as my life went deeper into pills I lost interest in all the things that made me happy. Funny how that shit takes over our mind.

Beatmatching is hard. It takes a long time to pick that up. On pain pills it is very hard, when I played at partys I was always f'd up and my sets sounded average. There was ONE time a year ago when I held off on the pills all day until after my mix, then I took ten as soon as I laid the last record down...

I went and saw some famous dj's last night... took by suboxone before I left. I haven't gone out to a club not on pills in four years, I actually had a way better time. I actually enjoyed the music more, music sounds muddled in your head when all doped up. It helped that I met a hot chick friend out there too.


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 Post subject: quick update
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:46 am 
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hey tekno, how's the subox working for you now? you're getting close to about a week now right? so i ended up switching docs and saw a local one close to my house. i feel comfortable with this doc, very well qualified, in addiction medicine for over 30 years and working with suboxone ever since it was FDA approved for opiate dependence. i stated before when i left the detox facility, i tapered down from 32mg to 2mg in 8 days and was staying at 2mg qD for four days. i was pretty asymptomatic except for some dysphoria in the mornings and that crushing leg pain, all of which the next dose of subox alleviated. after talking with my new doc about maintenance, we agreed that i'd give it a shot for a month. so she put me on 16mg qD and wants me to be on that for 2 weeks and then reassess me then, hopefully cutting down on the dose. but because i'm a doc myself and let my arrogant thinking get in the way, i decided to just use 8mg/day. and it seems to be getting the job done. i take 4 in the AM and 4 at around 8-9ish PM. i've been virtually asymptomatic and been having hardly any cravings or urges to use. one thing i'm worried about, my doc also put me on klonopin 0.5 TID (3x's a day) for two weeks, which she said she'd then taper me off it. when she said she would put me on it, i was thinking to myself, oh crap, this is not a good idea, being on a benzo when i just got off an opiate. but then my addict brain kicked in and said HELLZ YEAH! so i'm in a huge dilemma now. i've been taking the klon as prescribed and i'm not going to lie, it's definitely a nice feeling. but me being an addict, it's only a matter of time before i start abusing the hell out of it. i'm going to try my best to stay on this regimen for the next two weeks, but if the klonopins take a hold of me, i know i'll end up right back where i started from. has anyone had a similar experience? this is my first real experience on benzos. hope i can get some input/insight into any of this from any of you. thx in advance. peace.

fyi, she put me on the klonopin for anxiety d/o. now here comes my arrogant doctor thinking: one, i'm an addict, had a pretty rough relapse and emotionally dealing with the consequences has not been easy, thus causing some anxiety. second, i know the criteria in the DSM IV for anxiety d/o and GAD and i clearly do not fit the criteria. so my conclusion, anxiety d/o, BS. i'm trying hard to put my medical knowledge and background aside and put faith and trust in my doc, but i'm sorry to say that i don't get nervous hand twitching, i'm not constantly worried about situations or people to the point where it affects my day to day functioning, i've never had a panic attack, i don't get tachycardic when i worry about something, etc etc. okay i'll stop, and just accept it. hello anxiety d/o, nice to meet you, hope you leave soon. sorry about the randomness of this post, i'm blaming it the klonopin's GABAergic properties making feel drunk. i need someone to throw away this klonopin bottle, because i sure as hell know i'll never do it. rest well peeps, and goodnight.

-an opiate and hopefully not future benzo dependent MD


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