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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Hi all,
I've been using the drugs.com forum, but thought I'd also join here for more information and for support.
My story is a lot like many people, I'm a long term opioid user, who about 10 years ago got access to large amounts of very potent narcotics and became very addicted. The last couple of years I was sniffing 10-15 30mg oxycodone, on top of taking 200-400mg of oral morphine.
In May I decided I had to stop. I went to a local treatment facility and the Dr gave me a suboxone prescription. I'm also doing once a week one-on-one counseling, and in group "Relapse Prevention" therapy 4 hours a week for 12 weeks. My husband who I've been with for 35 years died a few months ago, so I've also been doing grief therapy.
I'm trying to get out of all these things what I can, and get clean as quickly as I'm able.
The doctor put me on 8mg/day, but I knew I wanted to get down to the lowest dose I could, so after the first week I dropped to 6, then the next week 5, and finally down to 4. I'm currently taking 2.75 daily in a split dose, but considering going to once a day.
Thanks for the resource and support.
Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:41 pm 
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I have cut down in a similar fashion to you but now is the point where you do not want to be so drastic while cutting down. After you get below 2 and especially 1 mg is when it becomes more difficult because the potency on such low doses doesn't last very long. I would honestly cut out a half of a milligram per week. And once you get below 1 and a half mg, start cutting out a quarter of a mg per week. This is how I did it and I had no withdrawals. When I got to one mg I tapered even slower. I took 0.25 mg 4 times a day and spread out the hours. If I took a dose every five hours the next day I'd wait 6 hours, then wait a few days and dose every 7 hours and so on. I am taking 0.25 mg every 30 hours now and plan on quitting in a week and a half and I am ready for it now. I suspect you are like me in the sense that you just want to get it over with and do not want to drag this out any longer but believe me suboxone is not like opiate wd that lasts for 5 days, it takes much longer due to the binding effect this drug has on your receptors, it is like glue! Think about it, you can be on 10 bags of heroin and then take 2 mg of suboxone, and that sub will kick out whatever heroin is in your system and put you in immediate withdrawals. That's how powerful this stuff is and getting your body used to a very low amount over a period of time is your best chance of getting through this without severe pain, depression or relapsing which would make it all for nothing. I hope I helped. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Also, I am very sorry to hear about your loss. I hope you have some great friends and family who can get you through this difficult time. The night is always darkest before the dawn.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Oh, I apologize. Have you only been on suboxone for a month? If so you probably wouldn't need such a drawn out taper method as I have said.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Hi Justin,
Thanks for the reply and the condolences.
I've been on Suboxone since May, so yes, just a short time. On the drugs.com forum their recommendation is to get off quickly, although they do suggest that you make sure you're ready to get off, and if not, to stay on a while.
I think I'm ready to get off, but I'm also listening closely to my body, and looking out for any cravings. So far, it's not been too hard. I also got rid of all the meds in the house, so it would not be easy to get more. My hope is that without an easy supply, and my commitment to stop, I will be able to get off and stay off.
Thanks for the advice on tapering. I did find it very easy to drop at higher doses, at lower ones, it's been harder and I've gone slower.
Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:44 pm 
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I'm so sorry you recently lost your husband. I can only imagine how difficult it has been to lose your husband and tackle drug addiction at the same time.

I realize that you are in a situation where you are using suboxone to basically taper off opioids. It seems that you may be wanting to follow an abstinence based recovery program, which is why you use the phrase, "get clean" when referring to being off suboxone. We don't use that phrase because we consider that we are clean when we get into recovery and take our medication as prescribed.

To many of us here the endgame isn't being off all medications, but it's living a normal life that is unaffected by withdrawal symptoms and cravings. It's being able to hold down a job, have loving relationships with our family members and rebuild finances that may have been affected by our addiction.

The brutal fact is that 90 - 95% of opioid addicts will relapse on opioids. Studies are showing that buprenorphine, the ingredient in suboxone, does a good job at keeping opioid addicts from relapsing and especially from overdosing back on opioids. So far it looks as if we have a better chance of not relapsing if we stay on the medication for at least a year. My personal understanding is that addicts need enough time to do recovery work and change their lives before trying to taper off buprenorphine.

The reason I bring this up is so that you understand how suboxone is best used, as a long term medication. We have plenty of current and past members who have been on buprenorphine for two or more years. They work on themselves, their addiction, and changing their lifestyles before very slowly tapering off to minimize withdrawal symptoms. They sometimes even slip up, but they use these slips to learn how to keep away from dangerous and triggering situations.

Now there are plenty of people who come here who are trying to go their own way and we support those folks too. :)

We just want to share the best knowledge that we've gained through our own and other people's experiences. We wish you the very best and hope that you will be successful in your tapering endeavor. This is a great community and there are lots of folks here that will offer their support to you.

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:43 pm 
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I understand Jackie but you really have to be honest with yourself. I have went off and on suboxone several times before I stuck to it and every time I went back to using drugs. Suboxone may not be a miracle drug but it sure beats being an opiate addict. It took many months for my brain to heal itself and for me to get my life back on track and I wouldn't trade that for anything. While on subs I was able to finish graduate school and excel at a great job and that would have never happened without suboxone. I took an assessment of my situation and my history (multiple attempts at quitting and my father and brother were both using opiates at the time). In retrospect, I can say with near 100% certainty that I would have went back to using drugs if I stopped suboxone before I was ready. That may have translated into me being on it for longer than I should but as I said, compared to being on opiates, it was like a broken pinky vs a broken femur. Everyone is different and are in different situations but I would really think about yours and discuss it with your doctor. Every thing I'm saying is just based on my own personal experience but Especially at such a fragile time in your life, I would hate to see you stop treatment if you are ready and have to suffer through another OC addiction. Please think about the obstacles you will face regarding addiction once you stop subs and come up with plans on how to deal with them.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:09 am 
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Thanks for the great replies.
Sorry! I have spent a lot of time on the drugs.com forum and the language/thoughts over there influenced me. But I should own saying "get clean," that was not the right way to say what I wanted to say. I'm in group with several others on Suboxone, and we are all "clean" because we are taking our Suboxone as prescribed and staying away from opiates.
This is something I am struggling with, but I have been trying to read the information on this forum (should have done more reading before I posted, I think) to get a better understanding. I wanted a different Point of View, and I am seeing it here. I should be careful too, I certainly haven't read everything on the drugs.com forum, so I'm not saying that everyone there has a "get off quickly" mentality, but there is more emphasis on not staying on Suboxone longer than necessary...although that's the hardest part to figure out...how long is necessary? It's what I'm struggling with right now. Again, I'm glad to read other POV.
I have to run, but I'll try to get online and read your posts more thoroughly, and write more then too.
In the meantime, thanks so much for taking the time to write. I very much appreciate it.
Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:49 am 
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Hey Jackie (I have a first cousin named Jackie).

I believe in longer term suboxone treatment. What we went through in active addiction (unless u were only using a few months before starting suboxone) takes time to get our lives mentally and physically lined bk out.

Our cravings are a huge reason we started suboxone treatment, it takes our cravings away so that we can focus on our recovery. Some ppl choose long term treatment and some don't, as Amy said we'll support u either way. I do think that u should be open to the fact that not everyone can successfully stop and stay off opiates by only doing this treatment short term. It has been over 5 years for me on buprenorphine.

I'm so sorry to hear about ur husband! I cannot imagine the pain that carries. U have so much change going on in ur life right now, please know that staying on buprenorphine for a longer period may be what is best for u. I just want u to be open to it if ur not ready yet.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Hi all,

Thanks to all of you so very much! I have I've spent a huge amount of time reading lots of different posts here from Dr Junig, and trying to get a better understanding of this whole process and what I need to do. With your help I've come to the realization that I need to sit at 3mg for a while. I don't know exactly how long that "while" is going to be, but what I've decided is that I absolutely have to focus on my addiction and recovery. Right now the Suboxone is keeping my physical cravings at bay, but mentally, I'm starting to realize that I'm feeling a little more fragile. At various times I find myself thinking back and wanting that feeling that using provided me. It's not terribly strong, and it doesn't last long, but it's a reminder that my first and most important job is to get "clean" in my head.

For me, right now, Sub is what is allowing me to focus on my recovery. It's helping me while I'm working through the issues and develop new habits, and it's allowing me to mentally prepare for the days ahead. I'm starting to understand why my doctor and counselor were originally telling me that I may need to be on this drug for a longer time--because honestly, I've never learned to cope with life without reaching for a drug. Whether painful or happy, I always used to feel better and I'm finding those mental habits are terribly hard to break after a lifetime.

So I'm pausing my taper. At 3 mg I feel like I'm taking the least amount I can take, and not physically crave. I've read Dr Junig's posts and wondered if I should actually be taking more, but honestly I think this dose may be the right one, and I'm going to discuss it with my doctor. I learned a lot reading about how as self-medicators, we are used to telling ourselves what dose we need, and I was continuing to do this. So for now on I'm going to work with her on what my dose should be.

It's become really obvious to me that I need to spend the next however long breaking my mental habits, and coming up with a recovery plan that I can work the rest of my life.

I appreciate all the help and encouragement I've found here. I started my path to sober living in May, and I cannot believe how far I've come. Living without drugs is my ultimate goal, but if I am on Suboxone, and following my program, then I'm progressing. I need to make sure all the supports are in place so I don't waste this opportunity by coming off my medication.

I will continue to post on this thread, but with your advice, and my reading of this blog, my original plan to taper off quickly has changed. I'm not sure exactly how all this is going to play out, but recovering from a life-time of use is probably not going to be an overnight process.
Peace,
Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Hi Jackie,

My name is Queenie. I am the grandmother of the forum. I will be 75 in November. I love all my grandchildren here and always try to give them the best advice I can. We are a family here and I hope you feel welcome to our cozy home with a fire going & coffee brewing.

I read your posts and I want to say, first of all, I am so, so sorry you lost your husband of so many years. I can only imagine your pain. I lost my parents 3 months apart from each other and I was an only child My parents were my best friends. I believe that led to my addiction. I'm saying this because I think this is a very vulnerable time for you. I admire your courage to get well at such a hard time but that proves you can do it.

Now, why are you in a hurry to stop the Suboxone? I understand everyone has a choice. I have been on it since about 2011. I tapered from 32mgs and I am on 8mgs. daily for the last 3 or 4 years. Now, I'm not saying you should stay on it for years but I think that under the circumstances, getting off too quickly could bring back cravings and it may be easy to want to avoid some sad feelings. This is just my point of view although no one knows you like you know yourself.

I really wish you the best, whatever you decide. Please stay with us and let us know how things are going. I'm always here if you want to talk or you can pvt. message me. Maybe you would like to read my story. It's in a post I call "All About Queenie" It goes back to about 2010.

All the best to you. You have my blessings.

Love, Queenie


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Hi Queenie,

Thanks for the condolences. Losing my husband is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with.

I think you missed my last post. I know the thread has been about tapering, but I am not going off Suboxone. My post was about my decision to stay on as long as my doctor thinks it's best. Obviously she and I will discuss my treatment, but the other thing I've come to understand about myself is that I have to stop thinking that medicine is something that I have 100% control over. I have to start giving my doctor that responsibility. Does that mean I won't ask questions, or provide my input? No. I am going to continue to do those things, but I read a great post by Dr Junig where he talked about pill takers thinking that they are the ones who make the dosing decisions, and it made me think how I've always done this. So I'm going to stop trying to control so much, and give most of the decision making power to my doctor and counselors. I think it's important for me as I learn how to move from being the person who self-medicates, to the person who listens to their doctor.

Thanks again for your post. My plan is to stay on Subs as long as I need to for my addiction recovery, and I really appreciate the support and assistance here.
Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Jackie wrote:
For me, right now, Sub is what is allowing me to focus on my recovery. It's helping me while I'm working through the issues and develop new habits, and it's allowing me to mentally prepare for the days ahead. I'm starting to understand why my doctor and counselor were originally telling me that I may need to be on this drug for a longer time--because honestly, I've never learned to cope with life without reaching for a drug. Whether painful or happy, I always used to feel better and I'm finding those mental habits are terribly hard to break after a lifetime.


Jackie - I think you're really beginning to "get it". And by that I mean what buprenorphine treatment is all about. It's about destroying your cravings while remaining clear-headed so that you can begin to process your past and your future. I'm so very excited for you and all of the wonderful possibilities.

You have been through something very devastating and it would be normal for anyone in that amount of pain to want to seek out relief by taking some pills. But you know in your heart that road is a dead end. That's why I'm excited for you and your decision to stay on sub maintenance for a little while. I think it's what you need right now while you work through some very intense emotions.

So welcome to the forum and we'll be here to support you in any way we can. - OM

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Hey Jackie,

I read ALL your posts(sorry abou that) and I'm glad you chose the right path. You are very strong and the only way to stay strong is to stay clean.

I know you have been through something devastating and I admire your strength and determination. You're on the right path, my friend. I wish you the best.

My love to you.
Queenie


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:45 pm 
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Thanks Queenie. It's all so very new to me. Trying to understand how all this works is a big battle. It's really nice to have all these resources here!
J


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:03 am 
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Hi All! :)

I've been on Suboxone for 2 years, and after weekly therapy, aa meetings and weekly urine tests, I'm ready to get off this. My dad, who is also on suboxone, has been a lifelong opiate user, and I don't think he is ready to get off, and I'm so grateful to this medication, I know it doesn't get him high, and keeps him clean, so I pray he stays on.
My story is a little different, I was prescribed oxycodone for a congenital hip defect, switched to oxycontin because it slower release, "less likely to be abused" HAHA yeah...right.
After 5 years, I was on the brink of divorce, lost my job, and my mind.
So suboxone has been great, but I'm ready to be done with it. I don't want to rely on anything to get me out of bed in the morning. Is that even possible? I suppose it is, bc pre-oxy-I was the happiest I've ever been.
so I started on 8, which was too much
7 was the best dose, but I tried my luck and was able to get to 6.
after a few months, I got brave and went to 5 with no discomfort.
was the pain all in my head?
I dropped to 4 2 weeks ago and felt a little tired, but idk If I can contribute it to w/d.
3 days ago, I went to 3.5mg in 2 doses (2mg in the am, 1.5 in the pm) and I feel pretty good.
I feel proud of myself, and I want to be clean for my 7yo daughter.
I hear dropping to 2mg is virtually painless, and so far so good.
next week, I'm dropping to 3. I hear under 1 gets tough. I wrote out a schedule and plan to jump at the lowest possible dose 0.06mg/day.
I read a forum on here under the pregnancy category and a pregnant woman, reddie86 blogged her taper story and she did it successfully with little to no w/d.
Is anyone else tapering? I was wondering if anyone wanted to taper with me! :) AA teaches us addicts help eachother, I wonder if it would keep us more accountable? but I also know, everyone is different. I hope my taper is successful and helps other realize, it is possible. I see a ton of horror stories, but I also see a ton of miracle stories and I think if you taper very slowly, it is easier.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:58 am 
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survivormom wrote:
Hi All! :)

Is anyone else tapering? I was wondering if anyone wanted to taper with me! :) AA teaches us addicts help eachother, I wonder if it would keep us more accountable? but I also know, everyone is different. I hope my taper is successful and helps other realize, it is possible. I see a ton of horror stories, but I also see a ton of miracle stories and I think if you taper very slowly, it is easier.


Hi survivormom,
You sound like you are doing very well! It sounds like you've done the work to get your head ready to try and taper off Subs. I'm new here too, so I imagine someone else can give you more detailed advice, but you may want to start your own thread. That way you have your own place to detail your journey.

I am new on Suboxone. I just started in May, so even though my thread says, "tapering" I have changed my mind. I am going to stay on Subs (I'm at 3mg currently) for a while longer, probably 6 months, maybe more. That part is not known to me now. I need to get where you are.

But good luck in your journey down! I'm sure you'll find a lot of support here. I know I have.

If you get time, read Dr Junig's blog posts, http://suboxonetalkzone.com/ I started with Best of STZ, but he has a ton of posts.
Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Hi all,

Thanks to everyone here. I appreciate your ideas and your experience. I'm learning a lot.

I really had a hard time with the concept of "trading one drug for another", as many people feel about Suboxone. I'm still taking an opioid, and I've had real concerns about that. The idea that you learn how to "quit" taking drugs, by taking a drug, is something I had a very difficult time wrapping my head around. It didn't make any sense to me at the beginning.

But I've been doing a lot of reading. I'm really trying to get a handle on how I got here, and what I need to change to get away from my drug taking behaviors. I've read many of the threads on this site and I really want to learn, and to make better decisions.

I started taking drugs to self-medicate myself at 12 or 13. I didn't realize I was taking "drugs" because these were prescription medications, and in my mind, "drugs" were illegal substances. But I understand that it's all the same thing. I was putting something in my body to alter my mood, change my personality and most of all to take away my pain. These drugs were never given to me by a doctor, except the times I lied to get a prescription. So one of the lessons for me in taking Suboxone is to take a medicine as prescribed, and for a condition that I am being absolutely honest about. This is important. I need to relearn the doctor/patient relationship. I'm not the doctor. Yes, I contribute. My reports to her about my physical and emotional state are an important way for me to help her decide what I should be taking and how much, but it's not my job to be the pharmacist. In fact, I think it's important that I stop playing that role in my life. For all my years, I've decided when and how much medicine I take, and this isn't right. Most lay-people don't act as their own doctor. So I'm going to give her this control.

I understand that a lot of people don't trust Suboxone doctors, but I'm not at a pill-mill, paying cash. I am going to trust that my doctor knows more than I do, and has my best interests at heart--unless something happens to remove that trust. But I am the patient, not the doctor, and this is one of the things I think may by at the heart of my use: this idea that I'm one who can best prescribe my own medication. I've proven over and over, many long years, that I am not capable of making good choices when it comes to putting medication into my body.

The second big lesson I need to learn is how to live life without a pill to take away my troubles. Yes, Suboxone is an opioid, but I'm not getting high from it. What it's doing now is postponing my withdrawals, AND stopping my up and down, yo-yo of euphoria and depression, of taking a substance to alter how I face various times in my life, both good and bad. I used when I felt good and wanted to feel better, and I used when I felt bad and wanted to feel good. I need to learn to cope with life's ups and downs without reaching for a substance. I am learning how to get through these moments without reaching for a pill to make things better. Yes, again, I understand I'm still using a drug, but it's not the same. I take it every morning and afternoon, and try to not "anticipate" it, or turn it into a ritual, or as something that's going to help me "feel better," but just as a prescribed medicine, like blood-pressure, or heart meds, that many people have to take daily, and I'm finding that this IS helping me to change my behaviors. The reason I know this is because occasionally I have cravings. I'm trying to use these as teaching moments for myself. "Why am I thinking about this now?" "Where did this random thought come from?" And I'm beginning to see these patterns, and to learn coping mechanism so that when I'm off Suboxone I will be more ready to deal with these issues. But if I weren't taking it, I can see myself getting caught up in the self-talk, and talking myself into behaviors that I don't want any more. Honestly, these times are frequent enough, and powerful enough, that they scare me. I'm not ready to do this yet without the stability that Suboxone is providing.

I also understand that this is a crutch. At some point I'm going to have to put both feet on the ground and walk without assistance, but that's not today, and it's probably not going to be soon. I still have many things to learn. My addiction has been life-long. I can't expect recovery to be a few months--it's going to have to be a longer process for me to be ready. This is something I was completely ignorant of when I started. It's also possible that I may have to be on Subs a long time. I hope not, but again, I've spent a life-time using. I don't know what that's done to me.

As far as tapering goes, when that time comes I'm going to see what my doctor thinks, and be guided by her experience. She talked to me about how she would help me with a taper, so I know that is her goal too. But I really have a lot to learn first.

Thanks again for the care and support here. I realize this thread has turned from a sub taper to maintenance, but I don't think there's any way to change the topic heading, so it will probably have to stay here.
Peace all,
Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:10 am 
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Good for you, Jackie! You are on your way!

I'm really impressed by your thought process here. Your recognition of the areas you need to work on is right on track. As I read through your post I was thinking "Yes!!" at everything you brought up. Number one, that you are going to let your doctor do the prescribing and giving her the control over what medication you should take, this is HUGE! If anything seems off about your doctor we are here to help you form an educated opinion, but understanding that you can't be your own pharmacist is just huge.

Secondly, you are examining your thought processes around your assumptions about drug use, questioning what triggers you to have cravings. Anticipating the day when you won't have to take a pill to feel good is a great exercise for the addicted brain and challenging the premise that you can only feel good when you take a pill is very good for your recovery.

I'm proud of you, Jackie!

Amy

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