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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:03 am 
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Hello all, I am so glad I found this site. I am a 33 year old girl (I don't think I can call myself a woman) and I have been hiding my addiction for 4 years now from everyone I know- my family, what is left of my friends, and my boyfriend of 9 years (who walked out on me last week and is one reason I am doing this). I have ruined my life and I want it back. I feel that I am a shell of a human being. I don't care about anything anymore except about not feeling WD. My opiate addiction is a story- 5 years ago I started having chronic kidney stone attacks. When I went to the hospital I was given vicodin ES. When I went to my doctor after he just wrote me a giant prescription for regular vicodin - the smallest tablet. At the time I had horrible insurance and couldn't get the help I needed for the stones. I would pass a stone almost every 1-3 months for a year and they would get stuck in my bladder and hang out there its awful. When I was able to get an xray I was told I had over 14 stones combined in both kidneys. My father and his 8 brothers and sisters ALL have had kidney stones. I was in complete agony and misery for a long time because I couldn't get the insurance to work for me and couldn't get the help I needed. What I really needed was lithotripsy but could not afford it and it was impossible to get a urologist reference because of HMO insurance and my general doc didn't seem to care / understand what I was going through. So I just used the pain medicine. BIG mistake. When I finally ran out of pain medicine I knew I was hooked. I couldn't go to rehab, I couldn't lose my job over it, I couldn't tell anyone. I was and am so ashamed of myself. So instead of going through WD and admitting to everyone what was going on I did some reseach. What I found was opium poppies. Does anyone else have this problem? So I started eating opium poppies. They were easy to get and I made a tea of it. I have now been doing this daily for 3 1/2 years. I dose twice a day right now with 4 tablespoons of dried ground powder in water or juice in the morning and at night. Well, a year ago I was laid off of my job of 7 years. So there went the funds for rent the poppies were more important. I was on unemployment and sadly had to basically use all of it to buy my way out of WD. I could no longer help pay any bills or rent and my partner of 9 years thought I was selfishly going out shopping all the time for clothes or girl stuff (well I was shopping I suppose) even though there was never anything to show for it- because I never had any money or stuff. Poppies are now VERY expensive. I sat on the couch this last year scared to look for jobs because I didn't want to be drug tested. I didn't want to worry about being sick at work. Sometimes poppies may contain mold you don't see and when you ingest that you get serverly ill for days. This would happen to me every 1-4 months and my boyfriend was like "what is going on with you?" I always had an excuse- kidney stones, food poisoning, etc. He never said anything but his own brother was an IV heroin addict for over 10 years so he must have thought something. So finally everything blew up in my face. Looking back it is obvious I was in deep depression the last year and the fight for trying to stay out of WD took up all of my being. I no longer enjoy doing ANYTHING- found it hard to even get dressed in the morning and usually didn't bother. I became an isolated hermit. Basically my TV became my best friend and at 7:00pm I would jump up and take an hour to fix up the house or make some sad dinner to make it look like I was doing SOMETHING, anything, before my partner came home from work at night. I would have to make sure I pre-made my "stuff" for the weekend so he didn't see me grinding up poppies. Well about a month ago he finally said "we can't go on like this. you have been unemployed a year and you can't find a job and you are miserable and I can no longer bear all the financial responsibility". I begged him to give me a chance to turn it around and I actually started pouring on the grease. I was able to find a new job that starts Wednesday this week. BUT- I just can't go to work as a junkie. I can't deal with not making it to work because the mail was late and my "stuff" didn't come. Then when I thought I may be able to pull this off- have the new job, keep the boyfriend (who I loved dearly) pay the bills and just keep buying the poppies he walked out. I don't blame him. He still doesn't know I am addicted he thinks I am crazy. He left and got a new apartment and I have to either go back to my parents house over 2 hours away or try to somehow find a place in couple days if I want to keep this new job and it is a good one. But I don't have money yet for a place. So I finally said "enough of this BS!" I have to stop this. I had just enough money to see the sub doc TODAY and get a 2 week prescription. What is kind of weird it is that it was also a place that give out medical cannabis cards. I told the doc what my problem was and he seemed kinda confused. He spent an hour on the phone with a suboxone rep to try and figure out what dose I would need. I guess I am supposed to take 2 8mg? strips a day (i got those strips like the breath things and not tablets) in morning and night. I don't even know how much opium I am consuming. I just don't know. I don't get high anymore I just have to feel "normal". So I took my very last night dose tonight of poppies (they are gone now forever thank god) and the doc told me to start the suboxone tomorrow morning. So tomorrow is Tuesday. I HAVE to be ok to start work on wednesday. My problem is that I am so scared of taking the sub too early and it slams me into WD. The poppies have a VERY long half-life. So since I dosed tonight with my bad "stuff" I am thinking if I do not take anything tuesday and then wait until wed morning will I be able to go to my new job wed morning? How long does suboxne take to work? Will I be able to function? has anyone else had a similar problem? I am so scared and now I am very alone- I have lost everything and I just want to rebuild my life. Thanks so much for reading this silly long rant. I also wish you all good luck and the best in your own struggles. This is the worst thing I have ever done in my life....and I am trying not hate myself every time I look in a mirror...

Liggy


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:55 am 
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Hi Liggy and welcome to the forum. I'm glad you found us and I'm sure you'll find the support you're seeking. The people here are great.

First of all, please put the bat down and stop beating yourself up. Addiction is a disease and there is no need to be ashamed of yourself. You have taken a huge, positive step to getting treatment for this medical condition that is addiction in the way of suboxone. Be PROUD of yourself for that! I'm proud of you for that! Besides, shame only keeps us in the past when what we need to be doing is focusing on the current...on TODAY... and moving forward.

I've never taken poppy tea or anything like it so I can't speak to that. And I know nothing about the half life of it either. We have or had a couple of people here that used them, but I can't recall who they were and if they are still around. Let's hope they are and that they see your post. I can't find a definitive answer on the exact half life of poppy seeds/tea, but from my very cursory Google search it does seem to be very long. I honestly don't know how high the risk is for precipitated withdrawals. I know when people go from methadone (which has a very long half life) to suboxone, many doctors first transfer the patient from methadone to something like vicodin or percs for a week before transitioning them onto suboxone to avoid any risk of precipitated withdrawals. And like I said, I have no idea if the poppy half life is longer or shorter than methadone. Again, I'm really hoping some of our members with personal experience with poppy tea will come along and share their experiences.

You asked how long it takes for the Suboxone to work. In a short answer - very quickly! Within the first couple of hours usually. Most people, after the first dose or two (depending upon how the doctor does induction or instructed you to do the induction) describe finally feeling "normal". Precipitated withdrawals aside, I would say that if you induce a day before you start your new job (if I have that right), then you should be fine to got to work the next day. Now be aware that for the first few days some people experience some dizziness or general loopiness (for lack of a better word) until they get stabilized. It will subside in a few days - it's not anything like a "high". Just something some people "feel".

I know you didn't mention this, but once you are on suboxone and stable, do you plan on telling your partner and/or your family what's been going on with you and that you're now in treatment? I believe you will do much better in your recovery/remission if you have the support of the people in your life. Just something to think about.

I'm not sure if I addressed all of your concerns or not. Hopefully I did. If not, just ask more questions. Again, please don't kick yourself in the ass anymore. It does no good except to make you feel like shit and that does no good either. Good luck with your induction and please do keep us posted. If you need to keep venting, talking, asking questions between now and your induction, feel free to post as much as you need to. It's what we're here for. Again - WELCOME!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:05 am 
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First off, I'm sorry about your story but trust me; we all have 'our stories' that we wouldn't write home about. The good news is you're on a great site about suboxone. There is more info (correct) at your disposal here than anywhere. Check subox doc (search) on utube and you will find Dr. Junigs vlog. This is the most informative info on sub out there, There is a lot of mis-information on the web and this guy knows what he's talking about. That's axiomatic considering his credentials. You will really learn about addiction because most here are in the same boat in recovery. I don't know the first thing about opium poppies. wait till you have the sniffles, yawning, minor joint aches...then you will be fine on the switch....what state do you live in? i'd write more and clean this up but my keyboard is actingscwewy!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:18 am 
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Me again. I forgot some information. So you're doing your induction at home, correct? Did your doctor tell you what withdrawal symptoms to look for? Did he give you something called COWS (Clinical Opiate Withdrawal Scale)? You can find it here: http://www.pharmacypracticenews.com/download/cows.pdf

It will help you to ascertain when you are in enough withdrawal so as to avoid going into precipitated withdrawal. It's not so much how many hours or how long you're withdrawing for before starting the suboxone, but how bad the withdrawals are. The scale I gave you will help you to score you symptoms and total them to determine whether you are in mild or moderate or even severe withdrawals. Normally you need to be in mild to moderate w/d before taking the first sub. If it were me though, considering the long half life of the opium poppies, I'd make damn sure I was in solid moderate withdrawals before taking the sub. That is UNLESS someone with some poppy experience comes along and gives you more specific, better advice.

I hope that helps. Sorry to have left that out the first time.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:23 am 
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listen to hat about not beating yourself up. This is a GREAT thing! You have a GREAT new job! drop the shame or deal with it in a healthy manner thru counciling etc. remember: that all the bullshit is over and life will only get better! U will feel normal! accept recovery, take sub the correct way...don't get cocky and stop sub and order tea,,,i'm happy for ya! also, as hat said, you should be completely open with everyone u love about yer disease...it is a disease...it might be helpful to look into Dr.Junigs educational tapes to educate loved ones on suboxone and why you need this medication if they give u any crap. I promise those educational recordings are the best things out there to inform family members with correct info on such an important topic


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:23 am 
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Hatmaker- thank you so much for your lovely reply. After everything that has happened to me the past week- from losing the man I would have married which is like a death because him and my two dogs were my family and now they are gone, to having this new job where I thought everything was going to be ok, to not knowing where I will be living in the next two weeks and be able to even KEEP the job for that reason I am just beat down to hell. I can't stop the tears from rolling down my face every five minutes. I know it can only get better from here- it can't get worse- but I am just so scared. I carry so much guilt and think "what if I started sub 6 months ago would I have saved everything?" "what if I just told him?" "what if..what if..what if??!!" I know I cannot keep torturing myself with that. Of course you are right about telling people- my family, my ex-partner....but I am terrified. My ex is done with me- that much I know I don't think I can save anything there I just have to move on. I can't blame him but I wish we could have worked out a better exit strategy for ending our relationship he just kind of walked out on me. I actually had I told him he would have left even earlier. It is quite obvious I don't love myself right and how can I be in a fair and equal loving relationship in this state? My parents are very "square" (lol) you could say and when I was a stupid teenager and got caught experimenting with stuff they were so upset I was so ashamed. Of course they would never turn me away I am just so scared of finally admitting my dirty secret and being looked at as the "junkie who can't be trusted". Which was why I came here for support and those who actually understand. I live in L.A. in Cali- it was very easy for me to find a doc and get an appointment the next day and walked out today with my prescription. Thank you so much for your kind words it touches my heart in this time of absolute aloness.

Indigo- thank you so much as well for the blog on you tube information. I wasn't sure if needed to be in major WD- the agony, the pain, the vomitting, the chills or if I would be ok with the minor symtoms like yawns, joint pain, restlessness before I dose. I am not looking forward to tomorrow where I will abstain from everything I plan to wait about 36 hours before I use my sub and it will be right before I take off for work around 7:00 am. I am the kind of person who can't do anything in WD so I am really freaked out about dosing and then being sick as dog for my first day of a serious new job. The doctor didn't really tell me....they seemed more surprised about my method of opiate use- the poppies- it seems poppy tea isn't as widely known but if you know anything about- you used to be able to buy poppies off ebay very cheap. Then someone died of an overdose or something and ebay banned them. Then you had to find online vendors....and for whatever reason- either the feds cracking down on the sales- or the other story I heard which was something about bad wheather wiping out the crops this last season- the price has jumped up about 500% you pay almost 200 dollars to have about 3 days worth of "stuff" and that isn't doesn't include people I have heard about with even bigger habits then me. Also the stuff has become almost impossible to find and I am so sick of it and over it. I have already been tapering - forcefully- because I can't afford the poison anymore its funny when suboxone is cheaper then your habit.

But thank you so much to both you- it touched me and I wish nothing but the best for everyone here


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:12 am 
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Liggy - Make sure you print out that COWS sheet and use it before you start the suboxone. It's worth it to prevent going into precipitated withdrawals. You do NOT want to go through that. It's way beyond any "regular" withdrawals you've ever experienced.

When it comes to telling your family, maybe you should wait until you're stronger and have some of your self-confidence back. Let them see the change in you first. I think that's what I would do. As for your former partner, I'd say the same thing. And even if you think you can't work it out by telling him, what have you to lose by telling him what the real problem was? You never know how he'll react. But give yourself time to stabilize on the sub and start to heal. You will be surprised and impressed at the change in yourself. Maybe when you're stronger and you're ready you can simply write him a letter or email explaining everything to him. That will give you some "closure" (hate that word) and perhaps allow you to move on.

May I make another suggestion to you? Find a good individual therapist, maybe one that's dealt with addiction before. They can help you to work on your self esteem and self confidence as well as letting go of the guilt and shame. Once you are able to let go of the past and forgive yourself, you'll be able to move forward. Although addiction is a disease, we do have some personal responsibility. Think of it like diabetes. That's a medical condition, but people with it also have some responsibility with regard to their diet and lifestyle. It sort of the same thing.

Again, try to remember that you've taken a huge step to better yourself and your life. And although it's a good, positive step, it's also normal to be nervous, even scared about this change. Before you know it, you'll have this transition behind you and will be on your way to stabilizing and into your new addiction remission. Keep us posted and let us know if you need anything.

Sorry for another long post. :)

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:12 am 
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Hi Liggy,

I'm not a Poppy Tea expert by any means, but I do remember reading several other people's stories on this forum about it. From what I recall, Poppy Pods/Tea are like a 'broad spectrum' opiate. The synthetic opiates (aka---pain pills) seem to be more specific in their response on the human body while Poppy Tea has a broader response. I know it's strong stuff, no doubt about it.

If I were you I would start out with no more than a 2mg dose of Suboxone once I knew I was into withdrawal from the poppy tea. You mention you have gone through some poppy tea withdrawal before so you should have a pretty decent time frame in your mind of when things get shitty, like was already mentioned, you do NOT have to be puking your guts out before you take your Suboxone. An hour or so after you take your Suboxone, you should start to feel better. If you feel shittier, you may be playing with Precipitated Withdrawal and you should wait before you take anymore suboxone. Obviously, if the sub makes you feel better, then you can take the rest of your dose.

Because of our lack of experience with poppy tea, I'm just trying to be overly cautious with you so you don't go into Pre. Wd.

OK, I just have to comment on your story now. There are so many things in your story that I can identify with. I had kidney stones ONCE and thought I was dying. Hell, I feel out of a tree and crushed both ankles and I would rather do that again than have another kidney stone!! BTW, the ankles thing is what got me on opiates. So, my heart absolutely goes out to you for having to battle kidney stones like that. You also mention how you no longer enjoyed doing anything, found it hard to get dressed in the morning, turned into a hermit, TV became your best friend. I did all of those too. You're not alone there, it's called addiction. Like everyone has said, don't beat yourself up anymore, stop with all the 'what if's' because that shit does you no good.

Please let us know how things go!!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:55 am 
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Hi Liggy and welcome. I did poppy tea for over a year and I know exactly what you're talking about. Unfortunately I didn't go straight from pods to Sub. I had switched to Tramadol, which also has a long half life. I took some the afternoon before my induction and went to the doc the next morning. He didnt feel i was in severe enough withdrawals, so I had to go back at 6pm. Judging by my experience I would probably wait 24 hours from your last dose, until you're achy, clammy and having bowel issues. I would also start with the full 4mg, as poppy tea is quite potent. Your symptoms Will subside starting in about an hour. If you still feel you are in withdrawals after you wait over an hour, go ahead and take the next 4mg. If you feel WORSE - DONT take any more and call your doctor. You will be fine if you wait until you are in moderate withdrawal before you start. The Sub does work I promise.
If I understand what youre saying correctly, you will be starting Sub the morning you start your new job? That sounds like a lot to deal with at once, but if you have to you have to.
I wish you all the best, and congratulations on taking control of your life. Please keep posting and let us know how it goes.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Wow thanks so much everyone! The kindness and support here amaze me! Sadly I found some websites last night that scared me even more about this journey with sub I am about to take. At this point though I don't really have a choice. I have never let myself go into serious, cold turkey, full blast WD on the poppies (can you imagine the strings I had to pull to do that? If only I had that much zest for everything else) but of course I would wake up feeling icky and sweaty in the morning and needing my dose- I will get sick if I do not have it daily in the morning. With the vikes I did go into full WD and even did the whole cold turkey for 4 days until I felt actually almost normal and i stupidly decided to eat a couple pills cause I was over it right? Wrong (and I have had to taper the poppies recently due to not being able to support the habit anymore and I think that was why I felt like a crash test dummy the last month) and from everything I read- WD from poppy tea may last anywhere from 2 weeks to a month or more. That is just not something I am prepared to deal with at this moment with all the things I have to deal with NOW- the new job, having to move out, I mean..I got stuff I gotta handle. Is sub really THAT strong? I now have a ton of questions I didn't yesterday. The docotr was a very nice man but as I said it was at place where basically you have the waiting room packed with kids who want their medical cannabis card and I watched them crank those guys through like a pasta machine while I sat there for 3 hours. Now, I have nothing against cannabis, in fact I usually use it in my daily life to help me sleep and have my own cannabis card. I did sign a contract saying I would abstain from all illegal drugs but I am legally prescribed cannabis do I have to not smoke it? The doctor did not go over any of this with me. I told them I have the card and use the cannabis but it didn't come up really when I saw him. I was so nerveous and embarrassed I just wanted to get out. I guess I will have to call them to see if they will allow me to use cannabis. If not oh well I'm not using any just now in case anyway. I figured they would UA me to see how much opium I have in my body to be able to dose me. They did not but does that ever happen? Now I am scared of taking the wrong dose. As I said before I just don't know how much opium I am consuming. I do know that when I had poppies AND vicodin (I kept a stash of the least potent- is it 5mg? vikes for traveling or mold poisoning emergencies when I couldn't keep anything down) I think I remember I would have to take about 4-6 vikes to hold up to a dose of the poppies and I remember they got me high. That was also when my poppy habit was much bigger. I am not even really sure what he gave me he said start tomorrow and take 2 strips a day. The box says Suboxone 8mg / 2mg. What does that mean? Do I have 8 mg strips? Would I be taking 16 mg total a day? What is with the 2 mg? 2 mg of what? After reading through a lot of this site I am wondering if the dose is too big? I don't want to trade my poppy monkey for a bigger one by starting off on too high a dose. I don't want to get high anymore I just want to be able to function and feel as close to normal as possible while I pick up the pieces of my life. To be honest I would like to start tapering asap because of the price and I have no insurance. I am am just so sick of using all the money I have to buy these drugs that control my life. I had a friend who was sucessful with sub treatment from heroin abuse and he was able to get off the sub ok...am I being overly worried? I want freedom and I know I will have to pay a price and feel crappy at some point when I jump from sub but should I maybe start with and take 1/2 a strip instead of the whole thing? And if I do only take half and feel bad a couple hours later I can take the other half to see how it does? I kinda feel the pharmacist I got the sub from gave me more info then the doc- he made sure to say "you better make sure you are in WD or will get slammed into bad WD when the sub beats out the poppies to your brain." I may have made a big mistake had he not told me that.....

Hat, Romeo and Lilly- I so much appreciate your input. You are helping me a LOT. The COWS sheet I am going to use. It is weird though I took my last bad dose of poppies last night at 7:00pm and should have been sick this morning but I actually feel a little high. I can't believe I would get a potent stash of poison right before I gotta quit this junk I hope the WD comes soon I am gonna wait all day I was going to wait until tomorrow morning and try to give myself 36 hours since my last dose. Now I just don't know how much to really take...so it IS ok to take a 1/4 strip or a 1/2 strip and finish it off later if it doesn't do the job? Also Hat I like the idea about "coming clean" to my loved ones once I have the sub working in me and I am doing ok at my new job. I think that is a great idea. I for sure want therapy and I am hoping I will soon have the money to see one. Sadly I do have to start the sub the morning of a brand new full time job - it just sadly worked out that way I knew I couldn't afford the poppies anymore, I knew I wanted off, and the last of my money went to sub instead of ordering more overpriced, poison poppies. It all just came together at once and sadly it is what it is. I just hope I can get through it without looking like a sick crazy person at work. It would be nice if WD hit me now so I don't have to worry about not being sick enough and taking the sub tomorrow which really twists me into worse WD. I will be here all day researching and learning and I thank you all so much for support it is really helping me feel better!!!
Liggy


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:51 pm 
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First of all, please don't think about getting off the suboxone yet. It's way too soon. You need time to get your shit together. Look how long you were using. You need lots of time to un-learn all those bad habits you built up. You need to learn new coping skills. Because once you're off the suboxone all those triggers and cravings will come crashing back and you'll be at a huge risk of relapse. Is it worth it? You spent lots of money on the poppies to get high, right? Spend as much energy and time and money to get into a healthy remission/recovery. And wait to get off suboxone until your overall life is healthy including how you feel about yourself. The healthier your life is the better chances you have of success and not relapsing.

it sounds like you have the 8 mg film/strips. The are technically 8/2 - they have 8 mg buprenorphine in them (bupe for short) and 2 mg naloxone. The naloxone is in them so people don't try to shoot it up to get high. They don't even absorb through the mucous membranes in the mouth, so we really don't even get any of the naloxone in our system.

I wouldn't try to take the sub at the 36 hour mark. I would pay more attention to the state of your withdrawals. If you pay more attention to the time, you put yourself at risk of precipitated withdrawals. And like I said, you do NOT want that to happen. Imagine other withdrawals you've been through and multiply that by like 25. It's the ultimate misery, I've heard. You will probably be fine starting out with either 4 mg or 8 mg. Wait an hour and see how you feel. If in doubt as to whether the withdrawals are gone, check your pupils. If they are still dilated, then take some more. Once you feel "normal" stop taking any more doses. 16 mg is not unusual for a starting dose. Often people start out at a higher dose then get down to a lower dose a month or two into their treatment. You want a dose that sufficiently addresses all of your withdrawals and just as importantly all of your CRAVINGS! You want to be in a place where you won't even think about opiates - AT ALL. You'll be amazed at how well suboxone will do just that.

I may have said this before, but don't be surprised if you feel a bit loopy with the first few doses. It will subside in a few days. Is there any way you can call the new job and ask to start a day or two later? Don't risk the new job or anything, but it was just a thought I had. It might be better than going in there and looking sick or high.

Oh, and lastly, please don't listen to the suboxone horror stories online. I can probably guess which sites you went to and I would suggest staying away from them. This site is run by a professional, knowledgeable, physician who has himself experienced active opiate addiction. We on this forum pride ourselves on providing accurate information. We don't allow scare tactics or blanket statements. Opinions are fine, but not when people apply them to everyone else or state opinions as fact. So please take those horror stories with a grain of salt, okay? Remember, the pissed off ones are the ones who are screaming the loudest.

If you have more questions, just keep asking and we'll keep trying to answer them. You're smart to get as much knowledge and information as you can.

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Hi Liggy77,

My name is Queenie. I am the grandmother of the family here. I want to welcome you and tell you that you couldn't have come to a better place. You will find that the more you meet people here the better you will feel knowing that someone really cares.

I am 68 yrs. old. An amputee of the left leg and many, many surgeries which led to my addiction to all types of pain meds.

I see that the others here have answered a lot of your questions. I am no expert when it comes to Suboxone but I can tell you that it saved my life. Imagine feeling normal. No W/D's, no searching through the house for some pills or in your case some Poppy seeds you may have put away and forgot. Not having any money and fearing the morning sickness. That's over for you now.

If you feel like venting or talking, I am here for you anytime. Just remember to be strong. You can do this. It takes some adjustment at first. But nothing you can't handle.

So, start your Sub and you will make it. I wish you had just one more day before you start your new job but we shall see, maybe it will work out for you.

Please let us know how things turn out. Again, welcome.

Don't give in & don't give up.

Love & a warm hug, Queenie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:25 am 
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if you take eight mills @ first in moderate withdrawls you should get a BUZZ! especially if 5 (5) mg vics were getting you high. just make sure as said you don't take both those 8 mg strips @once bc odds are u will feel wasted. ever take 40mg of methadone,,that's what i hear suboxone tolerence is like, keep us posted


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:31 pm 
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The prescribing info states that induction should start with 4mg. Thats what my doc did with me. I would cut a strip in half, take one half sublingually and wait at least an hour. If your withdrawals subside don't take anymore. (and, yes, you may feel a little buzz). If you don't feel good later in the day you can always take the other half. The idea is to take the Sub in 4mg increments until younger no longer in withdrawal. Most people don't need the full 16 mg. Some people do, and then are able to decrease their dose as they stabilize. I agree with Hat, don't even think about going off right away. I know it's expensive, but you have a lot to lose right now. You need time to get your life together, which won't happen if you relapse.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:25 pm 
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OH MY GOSH YOU GUYS!!! I just can't believe this. You are all RIGHT. This is an (excuse me) EFFING miracle. Well, yesterday of course I was just really down. I mean the pits. I cried and sobbed all day long I was SO scared and of course now that I lost the love of my life I am all alone in L.A. and don't know anyone because I am a hermit which didn't help (well you guys helped me I am so grateful you will never know). I read some the "bad" sub sites and scared myself even more. So as you can imagine I was just shook up to hell. Here is the weird thing- I am elated to say that as I reported when I woke up Tuesday I didn't feel so sick. I was surprised yet kind of angry because I figured this meant I was going to be screwed for my job - meaning when I worked the COWS sheet hatmaker so wonderfully showed me I knew I was nowhere near a full or even moderate WD and I knew I may even have to wait up another 24 - 48 hours before I could try my sub meaning I would have to go to my FIRST day of work in over a YEAR feeling like crap which was just not an option. I was convinced that I had gotten an extra strong batch of EVIL poison poppies and that I must still be getting them out of my system and I can't even tell you the last time I ordered anything that was any good. The combination of crop failure / gov crackdown has made it virtually impossible to find anything good and to be honest I would not be surprised if the whole thing comes to a grinding halt soon because it seems to be people are eating this stuff up like a dog let loose in a butcher shop - if someone has something for sale its gone in a day or two. Any and all vendors I would use have either reported they are "out of stock for the season" or are "RUNNING LOW IN STOCK!!" (always all in caps on the website to freak you out and make you buy it quick and for any price and don't forget the extra extra extra large price tacked on for quick shipping, these people must be rich off our misery- of course I don't believe in making any drug illegal we should have the right to torture ourselves as we want and I have to take responsibility for my own actions and addiction but man it is a dirty system these poppy people have got going) Then they happily raise the price about 700% and you are basically screwed. So anyway, that BS aside I woke up Tuesday feeling "ok". But I wasn't good. As the day wore on I got the very mild WD- I had minor chills, a little bit of the sniffles, the yawns, the horrible emotional distress. So basically I curled up on the couch in a blanket and somehow managed to spend most of the day sleeping??!! At night I was even able to eat some chicken. I took my one emergency valium I had been saving because I had to be able to sleep for work. Somehow I slept!!!!! Not awesome mind you- I had some chills and sniffles and the anxiety always gets me but that was all. Which was why I was even MORE upset I figured there was no way I could take sub when I got up this morning it would slam me into WD. When I got up this morning I sure as heck wasn't feeling good but in no way I was anywhere in horrible WD. I did finally have the bathroom / bowel problem (sorry) but no horrible stomach cramps, no throwing up. So I said, "ok now or never". Because my WD was so mild I didn't want to take the that giant dose I was prescribed. I opened up my sub film, cut the film in half, put it under my tongue and sat in the bathtub for a 1/2 hour to see what was gonna happen. And OH MY GOSH....I feel so NORMAL! It totally freaking WORKED!!! I think I could have even cut the half in half and just had a 2mg. I am AMAZED. I feel like heaven opened up and let some light fall on me. Over the past month I have been so broke I have been basically having to grind up and eat poppy stems. I had no pods and I didn't want to pay the disgusting prices anymore but I had a giant bag of "knobs and stems" leftover. I am pretty sure this has caused me to taper down to a very small amount of opium without really knowing it. So I have been using those for a little over a month. I pretty much felt like crap all month- no energy, depression...but I never went into bad WD. So of course when I found out I got a job I took what little I had been saving from unemployment and treated myself to a TINY $300 box of poppy hell which lasted exactly Sat, Sun and Monday of this past week figuring "hey I gotta job now where they didn't test me and I can eat poppies, work, keep my man, win the whole thing!" Well the man walked out the day after I ordered the poppies - he still doesn't know anything about it I am not quite sure what to do about it but he is done with me the relationship is over. (losing him is going to be a very hard thing I must deal with as well but how could he love the person I was? I didn't love me. I sure as hell couldn't deal with it in the state I was in even yesterday) The poppies came Sat and as I said I just couldn't do it anymore. Time for a real life change and not be this lying fake disgusting person I have become. So I got the sub. And today was my first day of work and I did great. I felt great...and because my tolerance was down to so much lower then what I thought it would be I am praying I can actually make it through this fairly qucikly. I know for a fact I will not need more then 8mg a day when I was prescribed 16mg so I now have a month's supply instead of 2 weeks. I know for a fact I can probably get away with taking much less and probably dosing once a day. I do actually feel a little buzzed but I don't even want to feel THAT. I just so badly want to be normal. And I must thank all you who put your time in to help me- it is SO appreciated and the kindness and understanding makes me actually weep with appreciation.

Hat- thank you so much for answering my questions and showing me the COWS sheet

Indigo- thank you to you for telling me I am not a monster and not to beat myself up anymore

Romeo- I just got your PM today and your complete kindness and understanding made me cry because someone understands and CARES enough to write such positive things and you people don't even know me. I will answer your PM

Lilly- thank you so much for sharing your PT experience with me it is so good to be able to know someone else who knows how awful PT WD is

Queenie- you ARE the "grandma of the family here" and since I have just lost both of mine who I loved dearly it made me feel so good when you offered your ears and heart to me - as you can see I have been holding a LOT inside the last 4 years and it has come tumbling out here. You guys are the first to know the truth about me...I thank you

So for anyone who reads this post- I was scared out of my mind literally. Today I feel like I CAN get my life back. Sub IS a miracle for me anyway and now I don't have to worry about what days the post office is open anymore, what days poppy vendors will ship...I don't have to worry about trying to travel anywhere when before I had to come up with all kinds of horrible ways to try and get my stuff to come with me on a plane ride...I can take a drug test and PASS (well maybe in a few days lol) I CAN rebuild my life. It is going to be HARD...but now I think I CAN do it. And I am not going anywhere the kindness and support you have shown me is AMAZING. I am going to keep posting and I look forward to getting to know you all...I cannot thank you enough you gave me better info then the sub doc!!!!! Ugh I can't believe for the first time in 4 years I feel like a ton of bricks has fallen off me....it is wonderful...and as always I am here for anyone who needs an ear or an understanding heart as well. Thank you...SO MUCH

Liggy


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:54 am 
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Liggy, thanks SO, SO much for that wonderful update. I really enjoyed reading it. I'll even bet it was somewhat therapeutic for you to write it. It's great that your induction went smoothly and you were able to get through your first day on the new job with no problems. You should do fine on 8 mg most likely, although it still may be too soon to tell. But it sounds like towards the end of your active addiction your tolerance may have dropped. 8 mg is comfortable above the approximate 4 mg ceiling. Being above it is what you want so your opiate receptors are saturated and KEPT saturated. And as long as the 8 mg takes care of the withdrawals that's great. Just make sure it also takes care of cravings. For some they need a higher dose only for more cravings.

That high feeling will subside. Give it a couple of days. Oh, and dosing once per day is what is recommended anyway. And again 8 mg should hold you over for that 24 hours without any withdrawals or cravings kicking in before that 24 hours is up. Suboxone's mean half life is 37 hours.

If I were you I would take those extra films you are prescribed and put them aside for a rainy day to build a back-stock. I do that as do many others here. Then we don't have to worry about making sure to get to the pharmacy on the exact day each month or making the appt with the doc on the exact right day or worrying about the doc going on vacation or any other problems with the doc that may occur. Plus it's helpful when the time comes for you to go on vacation. It's generally an all around good idea.

I hope you continue to feel better. Again, thanks for the very positive update! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:47 am 
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Goodness Gracious Liggy, now I'm almost in tears after reading your latest post!! I know exactly what you were feeling and I know exactly what you're feeling now.

I kept checking your post yesterday, waiting for you to update it....I was terrified that you had gone into precip. wd. I can't tell you how dang happy I am to hear that you are feeling so well!!

I SO hope you keep posting and keep us up to date because your journey into recovery is just beginning and there will be some potholes and speed bumps ahead that most everyone of us here have been through and we can certainly continue to do our very best to help keep you pointed in the right direction.

Whew, I just can't tell you how relieved I am to know you're doing so well. Good Job Liggy!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:14 am 
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Liggy, I'm SO SO happy for you! You're post brought up a lot of memories for me (yeah, I remember using knobs & stems), and I ended up getting off of them when they had the 700% price increase. But a two year pill addiction followed, so I didn't start getting back to normal until I started Sub. Listening to a newcomer brings the gratitude back for me, because sometimes I sort of take it for granted now.
The one thing I wasn't sure about from your post was what happened with the new job. Did you make it to your first day? Just starting recovery and starting a new job are two huge things, so there's really no way you can deal with your relationship right now. Just get through the next two weeks focusing on YOU and your recovery! Also, even though you won't need a new script in two weeks you will probably still need to keep the doctors appointment. It's usually pretty standard to have a visit at that time, and discuss your dosage, etc.
Again, I'm so happy for you! Keep up the good work,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Wow, Liggy,

I read your post and had tears in my eyes. You did it! You see? I knew you would be alright. You are beginning a new life. No looking back. Hey, who knows maybe your boyfriend will think about you & decide to call you and......well, you can take it from there. Don't give up hope but remember to put yourself first and concentrate on your recovery.

It seems your first day at work went o.k. You did get the job, right?

Keep writing so we know how things are going. I am so happy for you.

Remember, if you want to talk or just feel like writing. I am here. I will be your Suboxone grandma. o.k.?

Love, Queenie


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:16 pm 
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Hey guys...how are you all? I figured I better post another update. For anyone wondering I DID make it to my first day of work on wednesday and I made it there today as well. I still feel fine on the sub and I am not taking the whole 16mg. Like a few mentioned the price of this medication is so high that I am glad I can use 1/2 the dose prescribed so I can have a "just in case stash" and also more like a month supply instead of two weeks. Yesterday I was so elated the sub worked and that I made it to my new job I felt like nothing could stop me. Here is where I may get off topic and if this is a no-no or a problem I'm sorry but I am going to keep posting in my post for the moment. Today work was fine but now...now it's getting extra hard because I used to have someone waiting at home for me along with my "2 kids" my dogs I raised for 10 years with my ex-partner. Now thats all gone. And it is my fault. I guess this is where I start feeling emotions other then "fear" which is all I felt for the past 4 years. Fear of WD, fear of getting caught, fear of dying of some nasty mold poisoning. Now I'm in deep, deep mourning. As some may have read I basically became a hermit when I moved to L.A. 2 years ago with my partner and a year after I was laid off of my 7 year job because the company failed. I am from Cali and have lived here my whole life but never in L.A. and while L.A. has everything and can be magical it is also a very lonely place with a lot of people just "out for the business". A lot of people who want to be famous and a lot of people who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and a lot of beautiful barbie girls that are a dime a dozen and I'm just a "normal" girl with long brown hair (lol). Basically all my friends are "through him" so I guess they aren't really my friends anymore they are his friends. I was with my partner for 9 years and we lived together for 8 of that. The sad thing is I can't even look at another man and care. I haven't been able to for years. I know I loved who I was with, I also knew I would have stayed with him forever even if we lived in a box in the gutter, even if he came home and said "surprise- I'M the junkie". I guess maybe it isn't healthy. The kind of love where you don't care if you get married because you are satisfied just being together, just having him sit there working on his computer while I made dinner in better days when I wasn't a half person...having someone to reach over and hug in the bed in the middle of the night...someone to make you feel safe...having a best friend and lover who when you still look at him you think "wow he is so hot how is he mine?" Don't forget being fully accepted into his family where I spent holidays, weekends and vacations and now who haven't bothered to even try to speak to me since he left. And that hurts real bad. And I guess the coming home to an empty apartment I'm 2 weeks away from getting kicked out of where all that is basically left is my old computer, a futon and my clothes when I used to have a normal place and two happy dogs waiting for me and someone to share it with is really killing me now. I'm not going to go crazy or buy poppies or eat 100 subs or anything but man am I hurting. I know I have to man up and swallow my medicine and deal but...man. I mean, how many stupid tears can a human body produce? When it is gonna stop? And I still have to remember this is all my fault. If I had been able to get the *F* off the couch in the last year and address my problem I wouldn't be here. If I had actually remembered that I cared about and loved something way more then poppies I wouldn't be sitting here alone- and its not just the alone-alone I have been doing a long time- its alone without HIM and my dogs. And of course, I know in the state I was in it would have never worked had I continued the way I was. I could have never continued on like that. He couldn't continue on like that...I don't blame him. In the end he probably did me a huge favor by forcing me to re-think my shit and go get the sub. But we loved all the same things..the same messed up music, we have the same religious, political, and moral values, we both loved our dogs and going hiking and to the beach and rolling up a jay at sunset and we almost bought a house last year but the bank who owned it was shady and it fell through but just...man. And of course I have to realize that I MUST have some underlying deep personal problem to be self-medicating all these years. I MUST admit to myself he could never love me if I don't love myself and that I just must have looked so weak and pathetic and sad and like I was just using him for a couch to sit on all day because the last year was the worst of it all. Before I was always able to "juggle it"- hold down the job, hold down the man, eat the evil poppies....and the last year I turned into someone who I don't know. I did not care about anything. Now that its all gone I care. Ahh the irony. And I know it isn't the end of the world and that it is time to work on "me" and do things for myself and I pray someday I will get over him but right now I am just feeling I messed my entire life. Of all the men in my life he was the one I would have married. Maybe in a year I will look back and laugh at myself for writing this. I really, really hope so. I am starting to get weird looks from the neighbors now because I forget I leave my window open and I sob and cry so much the last week they think I'm nuts. That stupid full body crying where I can't control it. And then I have to remember all the people on this earth who have life a million times worse then I do and I sit here like some baby throwing a pity party. But...I have to pick up the pieces. I decided I was gonna fix myself and I have to do it. I don't even know what I would tell him if I decided to. I don't even know if he would care anymore I pretty much chased him away I think. I don't know how I got 9 years out of him. What makes it the worst was I thought I had a chance...I got the stupid job...I thought I was gonna make it. So yeah you guys- if you have someone you really love in your life and you are also self-medicating and absuing some kind of substance and hiding it or not- I urge you to take a deep look inside and figure out what is really important before it goes belly up. Don't be me. I seem to always learn my life lessons the very hard way. I will still get up and go to work tomorrow, I will still have to try and find someplace to stay so I don't lose this job, I will continue on...I have to. The last thing I want is to go home to my parents I have a schizophrenic sister who they already have to take care of the last thing they need is a jobless me bawling everyday because I would have to quit if I moved there too long a commute and my credit is screwed from being a junkie no one will give me a lease. Maybe I can find a roomate. But you don't always have a choice and I have to be grateful my parents would even take me. God I have to stop this rambling...again, thank you to everyone who replied to my posts and who cared enough to help. It's not over yet I am sure every day will get a little better but this is gonna be one hell of a healing process. Romeo- I still owe you a PM I still thank you for being so kind. Everyone I thank you- I owe you my ears and heart for giving me yours and I am always willing to listen to anyone who needs to vent. I probably should not have posted this here but it is only day 2 of sub for and the emotions are flowing big time now...I wish you all well and nothing but the best and excuse my crazy BS- you guys are the only I know who I can pour it out to. Thank you again at least I can cry SOME good tears for your kindness.
Liggy


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