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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:59 am 
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Very brief Morning Update

"Oh sleep, sleep, you elusive lover! Why do you tease me so??" As much as I am yearning for sleep, I had yet another virtually sleepless, tossing, turning, fitful night. I am kind of surprised sleep is not improving since all other "symptoms" have almost disappeared. I am trying not to let it get to me, but am tired of being tired! Even the clonodine is not helping me to relax much right now. Plus I took a little Trazadone, which usually knocks me out (but sometimes then I wake with a head ache so don't take it often), I did get a few hours, but not too many "in a row". I kept waking up, looking at the clock, "hoping" it was at least 4am. When it got to be 3am, I gave up because experience has shown me that after that point it is kinda useless and frustrating trying. BUT I will be ok, just needed to bitch and moan a little bit. I'm holding steady at .375mgs. Actually almost went to bed without taking my second dose! So, took it later than usual, feeling pretty confident that the later dosing would also help with sleep.......no such luck. But I do take it as a good sign that I was not even thinking about my second dose until bedtime, right?

K, have a great day!
Peace & Love,
RCA


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:19 am 
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Can I just say, and this is just my opinion and may even bite me in the ass in a couple weeks, but I dont buy into PAWS to much. I mean I dont put alot of weight into it. Maybe some people suffer with the blues and depression but I think they get stuck in a way of thinking (i.e. I'm bored, depressed, life sucks without opiates, etc etc) and trap themselves into a state of mind that makes them depressed. I understtand depression is real and some folks suffer terribly without ever doing drugs. If someone says to a person fresh over withdrawals from subs "now you are gonna be severely depressed for months even years". then that person is going to believe its true and start making themselves analyze every mood and slip deeper and deeper.

Honestly, I never heard of paws until right before I jumped and was on another forum. I was like "what? no, screw that". Sure I get in a funk for a day or two. life is hard some days, who doesnt get blah once in awhile but I dont stay there. Wanna change your life, change your mind. Thats what I have always been told and thats what I heard when I was using right before I cleaned up. I said "ya know your right, I'm changing my mind about this whole pathetic situation" and steamrolled forward and never looked back.

Many will disagree with me and say paws is very real and I am at risk. Thats fine. I just dont choose to believe it. Last week I had some down days but I focused on what was good, what I was grateful for and so on and it went away. hhmmm imagine that =)

Laughter is the best medicine. So is surrounding yourself with posittives. The law of attraction folks. Animals are attracted to calm, positive energy. Animals cant lie and they cant center themselves around depression. Sure they will experience something called learned hopelessness, but remove that animal from their hopeless situation and they instantly change.

Just some food for thought from me :) Rock on folks!


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:13 am 
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trainer14 wrote:
Can I just say, and this is just my opinion and may even bite me in the ass in a couple weeks, but I dont buy into PAWS to much. I mean I dont put alot of weight into it. Maybe some people suffer with the blues and depression but I think they get stuck in a way of thinking (i.e. I'm bored, depressed, life sucks without opiates, etc etc) and trap themselves into a state of mind that makes them depressed. I understtand depression is real and some folks suffer terribly without ever doing drugs. If someone says to a person fresh over withdrawals from subs "now you are gonna be severely depressed for months even years". then that person is going to believe its true and start making themselves analyze every mood and slip deeper and deeper.

Honestly, I never heard of paws until right before I jumped and was on another forum. I was like "what? no, screw that". Sure I get in a funk for a day or two. life is hard some days, who doesnt get blah once in awhile but I dont stay there. Wanna change your life, change your mind. Thats what I have always been told and thats what I heard when I was using right before I cleaned up. I said "ya know your right, I'm changing my mind about this whole pathetic situation" and steamrolled forward and never looked back.


Many will disagree with me and say paws is very real and I am at risk. Thats fine. I just dont choose to believe it. Last week I had some down days but I focused on what was good, what I was grateful for and so on and it went away. hhmmm imagine that =)

Laughter is the best medicine. So is surrounding yourself with posittives. The law of attraction folks. Animals are attracted to calm, positive energy. Animals cant lie and they cant center themselves around depression. Sure they will experience something called learned hopelessness, but remove that animal from their hopeless situation and they instantly change.

Just some food for thought from me :) Rock on folks!


Hey Trainer, Thanks for the post- I think much of what you say makes good sense, and for many people, sure I agree, a change in "thinking" may be all they need. When I hit my "depression" a few years back, it was caused by "unexpected and multiple" horrible experiences that just multiplied until I could not be mentally "strong" anymore, and just crumbled. I "discovered" that if I took oxy (got it on the street), I could cope and function. When I eventually checked myself into rehab, I was diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder. So, yes, while everyone gets "the blahs" , not everyone experiences multiple traumatic experiences in a row. So....just something else to think about as far as "paws" (I agree btw, I was like wtf??), and "mental health" in general. I believe you are an exceptionally mentally strong person. Not everyone has the same tools, or life experiences to just "make up their minds" to not be depressed. Thanks again; I enjoy this kind of "debate". :)


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:28 am 
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PTSD is very very real. I know some clients who are discharged from the army and suffer terribly from it. For a percentage of addicts, they will most likely experience depression, that I dont deny. My father is a very strong minded, strong willed man. He raised me to be the same. His mantra when I was growing up and to this day is "are you a wuss or a warrior, its up to you to decide". I know not everyone had a dad like that and I admit, it helped me through some trying times for sure. When I decided to become a dog trainer and work with large, aggressive dogs alot of people scoffed at that. I am 120 lbs and 5'5". I was told "ya good luck with that". That ignited a fire in me and I was determined to get through school, internship and do it

I believe there are some folks out there that if, never told about paws, never exerience it. But for some, they will hear it, dwell on it and get stuck in it. Maybe I will get hit with depression a month or two down the road. Dont know. I choose not to think about it.

Healthy debates are awesome. Gets the mind thinking. This forum is great because we come from all walks of life with different life exeriences and all have something valuable to add to discussions! =)


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:22 am 
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Great post, trainer.

I don't want to underestimate the physical side of my taper, but I believe that a lot of the challenge is mental, i.e. just the cr*p I carry around in my head. I was always a huge suck when it came to facing heroin withdrawal, and i'm getting some of the same dread now that i'm coming off Suboxone.

I agree with you that it's important to be a 'warrior,' and dig deep to find the strength to keep moving forward, and get through this. My main strength is spiritual (from 12 Step), but i'm sure everyone can find their own source if they look hard enough.

-- JI

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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:56 pm 
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Oh I was a huge suck too, dont feel bad. Many times in the past, when I ran out of subs early I was a huge baby. Kinda embarrasses me to even think about my break downs and tantrums..... oy!


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:38 am 
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Happy to report, that temptress "Sleep" was my BEE-AHTCH last night! I got hold of her for 6 full hours- that's a record since dropping to .375mgs for me, so feeling good about that.

UNhappy to report, all kinds of relationship "drama" going on, and I feel tempted to up my subs so I don't feel so uncomfortable about it. Please God, give me strength and peace today, and guide me to make choices that fulfill your will for my life. Protect my children from the effects of their parents' "issues". Ugggg. Life is hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:53 am 
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Well think of it like this, if you reach for more sub when the shit hits the fan, what will you reach for when you are off sub completely and have nothing to help you cope? I used to take more sub when I felt crappy physically. First thought towards anything symptom wise was "oh no, its withdrawals, must get more sub to stop it" most of the time it was just simple fatigue from crappy sleep or achy from a longday of work, not withdrawals.

I figured I needed to write down some things to do as coping skills when I was in detox and had nothingto take Iit away. I posted here, went for a drive, took a hotbath, listened to zen type relaxing music, etc.

find something other than taking a little more sub to take your mind off the drama. When you look back on it, you will be like "hey, I faced the drama all on my own, no help from extra sub, I can do this alone!"

Throw a tiny pebble into a pond and it makes a ripple. Keep throwing pebbles and eventually you build up enough momentum where that ripple spreads out to the other side. Keep on keeping on and moving forward on your own and you build up enough momentum to get to the other side with just a tiny pebble =)


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:51 am 
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I have to agree with Trainer on this, upping a dose to make it easier to deal with a problem doesn't sound like a good long term strategy.

Can you wait a day before deciding to increase your dose, and see how things look tomorrow?

-- JI

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"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn both of them with fire."
-- Rumi, Sufi poet and teacher


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:22 pm 
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trainer14 wrote:
Can I just say, and this is just my opinion and may even bite me in the ass in a couple weeks, but I dont buy into PAWS to much. I mean I dont put alot of weight into it. Maybe some people suffer with the blues and depression but I think they get stuck in a way of thinking (i.e. I'm bored, depressed, life sucks without opiates, etc etc) and trap themselves into a state of mind that makes them depressed. I understtand depression is real and some folks suffer terribly without ever doing drugs. If someone says to a person fresh over withdrawals from subs "now you are gonna be severely depressed for months even years". then that person is going to believe its true and start making themselves analyze every mood and slip deeper and deeper.

Honestly, I never heard of paws until right before I jumped and was on another forum. I was like "what? no, screw that". Sure I get in a funk for a day or two. life is hard some days, who doesnt get blah once in awhile but I dont stay there. Wanna change your life, change your mind. Thats what I have always been told and thats what I heard when I was using right before I cleaned up. I said "ya know your right, I'm changing my mind about this whole pathetic situation" and steamrolled forward and never looked back.

Many will disagree with me and say paws is very real and I am at risk. Thats fine. I just dont choose to believe it. Last week I had some down days but I focused on what was good, what I was grateful for and so on and it went away. hhmmm imagine that =)

Laughter is the best medicine. So is surrounding yourself with posittives. The law of attraction folks. Animals are attracted to calm, positive energy. Animals cant lie and they cant center themselves around depression. Sure they will experience something called learned hopelessness, but remove that animal from their hopeless situation and they instantly change.

Just some food for thought from me :) Rock on folks!


I thought the same thing to a "t". Until paws hit me.. LOL. I am a very happy, uppity, easy going person who finds humor in almost everything. Literally, almost everything. It's not in my nature to be depressed or wallow in those types of feelings. I got hit at about 5 months with, what I firmly believe was PAWS. I honestly didn't even realize it at the time because I was so convinced that I wouldn't get paws, but looking back at my 5 to 8 month mark, I believe I had paws. I don't think everyone gets it.. but I did.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:27 pm 
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RCA- Sorry to hear about the r/s drama.. that always sucks. Hope it gets better and you find peace with your decision to either up your dose or stay the course. WIthdrawing under the best of circumstances is tough, never mind all the obstacles life throws your way. You can use this time to practice and see if you're able to cope with these hurdles without reaching for more suboxone. The others are right, you will certainly face more when you're off suboxone and that it plain BRUTAL. It gets better as you learn to cope, but it's hard. Really really hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:28 pm 
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rca1004 wrote:
Happy to report, that temptress "Sleep" was my BEE-AHTCH last night! I got hold of her for 6 full hours- that's a record since dropping to .375mgs for me, so feeling good about that.

UNhappy to report, all kinds of relationship "drama" going on, and I feel tempted to up my subs so I don't feel so uncomfortable about it. Please God, give me strength and peace today, and guide me to make choices that fulfill your will for my life. Protect my children from the effects of their parents' "issues". Ugggg. Life is hard.




Oh wow RCA, sorry to hear there are issues making it difficult to stick to your taper plan. After reading about how you were diagnosed with PTSD, such things are probably more difficult for you than many others, if there are any flashback feelings/thoughts triggered by it. I wouldn't judge you if you tried to self medicate them by upping your dose, but echo the sentiments of others, insofar as trying to ride it out being the best "plan A". "Plan B" might be trying to get relief by talking about it with somebody who is more intimately familiar with your background that caused the PTSD, and/or maybe a PTSD support forum to supplement what you get out of this forum.

I get tired of cliches sometimes like many, but, still often helps to be reminded that, "this too shall pass".


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:17 am 
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Thank you Trainer, JI, TinyDancer, and Boop. It was incredibly comforting to me to know that there were caring human beings "out there", who took the time to give me some solid advice and support yesterday, which I truly needed and appreciate. Although I read your posts right away, I didn't have the heart to post again yesterday, but today is a new day!

Trainer, I love the "pebble" analogy. I thought, yes, I can throw a pebble today, I don't have to build the whole damn bridge.

Thanks to each of you for being so "gentle" with me as well with my temptation to use more subs to mask the pain rather than walk through it. Everything you said made good sense- I do NOT plan on turning to subs in the future, so I need to learn how to "cope" when life gets rough in a healthy way, and yes, TinyDancer, it is hard. But just "acknowledging" that makes it a bit easier somehow?

JI, smart to tell me just to "wait another day" to make that sub decision. That also gave me strength (see, told ya I'd probably also need a push- thank you "Son" :wink: !)

Boop, thank you for understanding that PTSD can make one "panic" more than a "normal" (and I use that term loosely- ha ha) person would. I have had some therapy, and have worked through most of the trauma, but yeah, some of the unresolved "shit" still does surface whenever life gets difficult. The fear of backsliding into depression is always there in the back of my mind.....

I did NOT use "extra" suboxone yesterday over my current .375 mgs. I read the forum, prayed, meditated on what was said, then talked it through with a friend, worked out, and did things to help my kids have a great, happy day. These tools (pebbles) got me through yesterday, and gave me better footing for today. I will "eventually" build that bridge. Knowing I can feel these feelings and still function gives me strength and peace. So, the "relationship issues" will probably be around for awhile, but with God's help, and the support I have found here I believe I can continue my taper and jump and still "deal" with life. Thanks again- it amazes me how much wisdom and love I have found from the very real human beings I've been fortunate enough to connect with through my screen. I feel you, people!


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:19 am 
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.375mgs and "holding"

My darling, "Sleep", let me hold her even closer last night with less of a struggle, as it seems our relationship is calming down. I dozed an entire 5-6 hours without waking one single time! That is unusual for me, even when not detoxing! My "normal" pattern has been to sleep a little fitfully for a couple hours, wake up, maybe watch "light" TV a little to calm my brain, then I usually fall into a deeper rest for the night. SO, to not wake up ONE TIME until morning is a nice surprise! Granted, "morning" came at 4am today, but still!

Also, I am not waking up with that "buzzy" restless body feeling anymore, so I think I am truly (finally) stable at this dose. Usually as I type my "morning post" my feet are tapping and legs moving - but not today, not even with the coffee (I don't think I'll ever give up my morning caffeine)!

So, with regard to my "plan", since "life" is kinda getting in the way right now (see previous post) I think I would do well just to "stay the course" for at least a few more days before I attempt another drop.

My "thought for the day" is, please go read Trainer's "Pebble" analogy further up on this same page if you have not already done so.

Keep throwing pebbles peeps!
XO
rca


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:14 am 
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You are gonna be just fine! I was so happy to read you didnt take a little extra! We owe it to ourselves to look deep inside, trust and believe we CAN do things we never thought possible. For so long we told ourselves "oh I cant, look at my situation, I just cant do it alone" and convinced ourselves that we needed the drugs to help. Reality is though, that we can, justhave to prove it to ourselves. Once you see what you can do, you build on it. It energizes you and really builds self esteem, something alot of us dont have much of. I know for me, when I was in active addiction, and when I tried tapering off subs, I really talked down to myself. Mentally I thought, "what a loser you are, cant even taper off subs". Got tired of listening to myself and just did it. Never been prouder!

Have a great day!


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:55 am 
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I agree with trainer on taking sub every time I had an ache or emotional whim. This event happened to me more recently - during my "successful taper) :) The other night I had one of those days where the hours seemed longer than my productivity. I decided to treat myself to relax and watch a movie early afternoon. I ended up feeling restless after - feeling lazy and not being able to come up with anything worth while to do after the movie (result: too much time on my hands) - my brain said..now what do I do? This is uncomfortable. Normally I would take more sub and feel somewhat stoned or atleast comfortable watching endless more hours of tv before I went to bed but I couldnt do that this time. For whatever reason this aggravated me enough to talk myself into a little depression. I started believing I was in withdrawal and that maybe it was the lower dose finally kicking in to the half life's dissipating since I dropped 10% a few days ago (Im at .312). It actually seemed like a good idea to "make myself feel better" since I wanted to enjoy the afternoon and I felt I was too flat too early (I had already taken my 2nd dose).

Anyway, I thought it through what "cold turkey" would be like to this and also remembered what a few have already posted during their taper (which I agree) - is this what I "need" or more what I "want"? I realized why I stayed at 1mg for so long - this very thing. With God's grace, I chose to give it to Him and didnt take the sliver. Im so glad I did that as that "event" passed and I actually had a decent day /evening that night despite.

I dont ever want to say "im ok" as you now how it is, as soon as you say that, trouble sets in so for now Im just grateful to still be at .312 and plan to keep going.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:25 am 
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I can relate to that so much. I would come home from work a bit tired and head straight for the safe. Break a piece of sub off, lay on the bed and just veg out for the rest of the day to the tv until my husband got home and I went thru the motions of doing stuff around thehouse. Ugh. I was such a slouch the past couple years. I would put energy into work, my animals and that was it. Luckily my husband is who he is or he probably would of skipped awhile back.

now I am living life, getting involved in my marriage again and laughing! Alot!

Feels good :)


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:55 am 
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rca, I'm glad you and your mistress sleep are getting along better. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:18 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
rca, I'm glad you and your mistress sleep are getting along better. :)


Yes, but she can be a fickle little bitch! LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:28 am 
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trainer14 wrote:
You are gonna be just fine! I was so happy to read you didnt take a little extra! We owe it to ourselves to look deep inside, trust and believe we CAN do things we never thought possible. For so long we told ourselves "oh I cant, look at my situation, I just cant do it alone" and convinced ourselves that we needed the drugs to help. Reality is though, that we can, justhave to prove it to ourselves. Once you see what you can do, you build on it. It energizes you and really builds self esteem, something alot of us dont have much of. I know for me, when I was in active addiction, and when I tried tapering off subs, I really talked down to myself. Mentally I thought, "what a loser you are, cant even taper off subs". Got tired of listening to myself and just did it. Never been prouder!

Have a great day!


Thanks Trainer, you should be a motivational speaker! :D I did have a pretty great day, thank you again!!


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