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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:40 am 
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Glad hear that you're hanging tough at .375 mg/day, good for you!

Last week (while at .75 mg/day and feeling crappy) I took an extra .5 mg of Suboxone one day; I felt great physically all that day, but it was my worst day mentally since starting my taper. This is just me, talking about me, but I think the extra dose shook my faith in ultimate success, greatly intensifying my feelings of anxiety, anger, self-pity, etc. Won't make that mistake again (also don't want to make the opposite mistake of accelerating my taper and jumping off quicker).

How are you using the Clonidine rca (i.e. what size doses and when)? Opened up a cupboard this morning and -- surprise! -- I have an almost full bottle of Clonidine left over from when I got off methadone. Also found a nearly full bottle of Seroquel, but that's going to stay where it is.

-- JI

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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:56 am 
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Hi all, I wanted to check in. I decided last week to not read for a couple days to "center" myself on a schedule I feel comfortable without challenging myself too fast competing with others.

I am so encouraged by Mama and RCA - Mama, my brain tells me I cannot relate to your situation as much since you mentioned you were not on Sub for very long...this is NOT saying this is right to do that (as detoxing off this drug can be brutal either way), just being honest where my head takes me sometimes. BUT, RCA (hopefully I have your screen name right), I do relate too you as your time on this drug, age, being a woman, kids is very close to me. This eliminates me making more excuses for me whining too much on any given dose/experience. You are too close to my situation to do that. LOL :) I do believe we all help eachother either way. Just being honest to where my head is.

I was feeling last week "challenged" to keep up with RCA. Since I tried to keep up with Boop and DB and that failed (they sail on but I crashed and burned) I got myself discouraged but instead of wanting to give up, feel stronger in my determination now. I believe GOD, prayer, meetings and more prayer and bible reading has helped me. God is NOT zapping me to feel better (that is for sure) but He is teaching me to "endure" more and instead of my hope going down, has gone up. When I read RCA's struggle and progress I feel we are so close it is "empowering" to me to keep the pace with her.

Anyway, with all that said, I get to a place I just want to get off reading and living more to keep my self from focusing too much on my withdrawal. As where I stand now, I too am at .375 (have been here since Friday of last week or whatever that day I said I would be at .375 too). I have to confess, I was also afraid to peek the last few days in fear RCA may get ahead and be at .25 by Monday so I chose not to look as I was doing good at .375 so wanted a few days to stabelize. I tried one day to go on just .25 but started to feel the head fog early evening (late afternoon) and decided to give it more time before I go that route.

For me, .375 is amazing. In may ways I feel like I did at 1mg??

With this said, I have a question for Romeo and others that have more experience. I lingered at 1mg for a couple years and every time I tried to reduce I would feel so awful would crash and go back up every time. This happened enough to scare me from reducing period (had thoughts to just stay at 1mg forever, etc) - hense why it took so long to get moving downward in my doses. As is the case with me, I keep coming back to reality and want my body/brain to be completely drug free and it also helped to see old posters where used to be where I was and now off, challenge me again to taper down.

I have a couple concerns: I can see why people say despite how low they go on this drug it seems to still have such strong consequences once you jump - if not right away, eventually everyone seems to relate to the symptoms whether they taper or jump (some people have stronger symptoms sooner but all in all they all say it is still "eventful" when they jump. I have heard this from people micro tapering even. So much so, I read one thread where the argument was it may be harder initially when you jump from let's say 1mg to tapering down further but after the first week or so, it equals out whether you taper or not because it still has similar affect once you stop eventually.

I am grateful and elated to be at .375 but sometimes I think if I can feel buzzed then is it possible this drug is as powerful at this dose as it was at 1mg and therefore no matter what I do the jump will still be that much powerful as well - hense why so many people say it doesnt matter. The only difference to people that jump is they prepare themselves to deal with it and get it over with sooner.

Do you think this is the case or can it be helping me to continue to taper. I dont mean to be ungrateful to feel good at .375 but it does make me think this. When you can feel "buzzed" (to me) means that I am buzzed. Then that equates to me having to deal with the process of whatever is making me buzzed leave eventually hense the withdrawal.

This may not make sense but was hoping someone may have a theory on this? Maybe my body is just adjusting but the withdrawal will still be better if I continue to taper.
Its true God is blessing me either way. I will still take feeling great at this dose as a blessing.

:)

RCA, remember I went a good 8 days when I got sick awhile back with no sub but had intermitant T3's during that time for my throat. I skipped days too which all that pain (from sickness and no sub) did prepare me more for today.

I do believe everyone is unique but one thing I absoutely believe is God is there for us all and will get us through this if we trust Him.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Karen123 wrote:
Hi all, I wanted to check in. I decided last week to not read for a couple days to "center" myself on a schedule I feel comfortable without challenging myself too fast competing with others.

I am so encouraged by Mama and RCA - Mama, my brain tells me I cannot relate to your situation as much since you mentioned you were not on Sub for very long...this is NOT saying this is right to do that (as detoxing off this drug can be brutal either way), just being honest where my head takes me sometimes. BUT, RCA (hopefully I have your screen name right), I do relate too you as your time on this drug, age, being a woman, kids is very close to me. This eliminates me making more excuses for me whining too much on any given dose/experience. You are too close to my situation to do that. LOL :) I do believe we all help eachother either way. Just being honest to where my head is.

I was feeling last week "challenged" to keep up with RCA. Since I tried to keep up with Boop and DB and that failed (they sail on but I crashed and burned) I got myself discouraged but instead of wanting to give up, feel stronger in my determination now. I believe GOD, prayer, meetings and more prayer and bible reading has helped me. God is NOT zapping me to feel better (that is for sure) but He is teaching me to "endure" more and instead of my hope going down, has gone up. When I read RCA's struggle and progress I feel we are so close it is "empowering" to me to keep the pace with her.

Anyway, with all that said, I get to a place I just want to get off reading and living more to keep my self from focusing too much on my withdrawal. As where I stand now, I too am at .375 (have been here since Friday of last week or whatever that day I said I would be at .375 too). I have to confess, I was also afraid to peek the last few days in fear RCA may get ahead and be at .25 by Monday so I chose not to look as I was doing good at .375 so wanted a few days to stabelize. I tried one day to go on just .25 but started to feel the head fog early evening (late afternoon) and decided to give it more time before I go that route.

For me, .375 is amazing. In may ways I feel like I did at 1mg??

With this said, I have a question for Romeo and others that have more experience. I lingered at 1mg for a couple years and every time I tried to reduce I would feel so awful would crash and go back up every time. This happened enough to scare me from reducing period (had thoughts to just stay at 1mg forever, etc) - hense why it took so long to get moving downward in my doses. As is the case with me, I keep coming back to reality and want my body/brain to be completely drug free and it also helped to see old posters where used to be where I was and now off, challenge me again to taper down.

I have a couple concerns: I can see why people say despite how low they go on this drug it seems to still have such strong consequences once you jump - if not right away, eventually everyone seems to relate to the symptoms whether they taper or jump (some people have stronger symptoms sooner but all in all they all say it is still "eventful" when they jump. I have heard this from people micro tapering even. So much so, I read one thread where the argument was it may be harder initially when you jump from let's say 1mg to tapering down further but after the first week or so, it equals out whether you taper or not because it still has similar affect once you stop eventually.

I am grateful and elated to be at .375 but sometimes I think if I can feel buzzed then is it possible this drug is as powerful at this dose as it was at 1mg and therefore no matter what I do the jump will still be that much powerful as well - hense why so many people say it doesnt matter. The only difference to people that jump is they prepare themselves to deal with it and get it over with sooner.

Do you think this is the case or can it be helping me to continue to taper. I dont mean to be ungrateful to feel good at .375 but it does make me think this. When you can feel "buzzed" (to me) means that I am buzzed. Then that equates to me having to deal with the process of whatever is making me buzzed leave eventually hense the withdrawal.

This may not make sense but was hoping someone may have a theory on this? Maybe my body is just adjusting but the withdrawal will still be better if I continue to taper.
Its true God is blessing me either way. I will still take feeling great at this dose as a blessing.

:)

RCA, remember I went a good 8 days when I got sick awhile back with no sub but had intermitant T3's during that time for my throat. I skipped days too which all that pain (from sickness and no sub) did prepare me more for today.

I do believe everyone is unique but one thing I absoutely believe is God is there for us all and will get us through this if we trust Him.


Bupe is 40x stronger than morphine, insofar as binding to opiate receptors. It's only a partial agonist though, so weaker stuff can actually be better at killing pain, producing a buzzy feeling, etc, but makes it a true blue mofo to withdraw from. Although the opiate-naive, and occasionally moderate to long time users will feel a bit buzzy from it. I've even heard anecdotes that a buzzy feeling is more common at 2mg and below doses, as bupe, when metabolized, produces a metabolite called norbuprenorphine, that is a full agonist on many receptors, and at lower bupe doses, norbuprenorphine has less competition from buprenorphine to attach to receptors. Hence the saying that "less is more" that some recreational users of bupe describe.

Quote:
Norbuprenorphine is the primary active metabolite of buprenorphine. Norbuprenorphine acts as a μ-opioid, δ-opioid, and nociceptin receptor full agonist, as well as a κ-opioid receptor partial agonist. Norbuprenorphine crosses the blood-brain-barrier similarly to buprenorphine and likely contributes to its effects. It was observed that Intravenous administration of norbuprenorphine at 1 to 3 mg/kg decreased respiratory rate, whereas buprenorphine had no effect up to 3 mg/kg in rats.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbuprenorphine


***


Last edited by no_boop_shoo_be_doop on Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:08 pm 
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That said, an increased ratio of norbuprenorphine to buprenorphine at lower dosing might be why low taperers have nearly or often as much difficulty with their dose drops and jumps as some of the higher jumpers. In theory anyway, but I've read enough anecdotal evidence to ascribe a high likelihood to the theory. And their is some science to back up the theory as well, with the part of the wiki entry that I bolded.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:24 am 
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johnny_ikon wrote:
Glad hear that you're hanging tough at .375 mg/day, good for you!

Last week (while at .75 mg/day and feeling crappy) I took an extra .5 mg of Suboxone one day; I felt great physically all that day, but it was my worst day mentally since starting my taper. This is just me, talking about me, but I think the extra dose shook my faith in ultimate success, greatly intensifying my feelings of anxiety, anger, self-pity, etc. Won't make that mistake again (also don't want to make the opposite mistake of accelerating my taper and jumping off quicker).

How are you using the Clonidine rca (i.e. what size doses and when)? Opened up a cupboard this morning and -- surprise! -- I have an almost full bottle of Clonidine left over from when I got off methadone. Also found a nearly full bottle of Seroquel, but that's going to stay where it is.

-- JI

Hey JI, thanks for the encouragement! It helps! Don't lose your faith- we'll get there sooner or later. I keep holding on to something Romeo passed on to me: Progress, not perfection!
Lucky you to find the clonidine!! Not sure what seroquel is, but maybe you should get rid of it??? With the clonodine, since you asked, I usually take 1/2 pill (I forget mgs, but can look it up if you like) mid afternoon when and if I start to feel more intense wdls. Then for sleep lately I've been taking a whole pill together with just a little bit of Xanax about an hour before bed. If I can't get more than 3 hours of sleep, I take another 1/2, but that hasn't happened often. I'm trying to go as light as I can on the comfort meds so they'll still have an effect (and I'll still have enough!) when I actually jump.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:31 am 
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Romeo wrote:
You've got some great advice here....."this is a marathon, not a sprint" is brilliant and "you have made miles and miles of progress" is something you always have to remind yourself of.

Settle in where you're at and proceed as you see fit, not how someone else did. Opiate wd and recovery are highly individual. You do what works for you.

Thanks Romeo, I always appreciate your support and advice. I don't think I am competing with anyone else's process (maybe subconsciously??), mostly I am competing with my own overly ambitious expectations for myself. This is a character defect most likely instilled in childhood (parent with unrealistically high expectations for me), so I am trying to be more gentle with myself, but it is hard. Thanks to both you and mama for the kind words, support, and permission to slow down!
rca


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:33 am 
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no_boop_shoo_be_doop wrote:
That said, an increased ratio of norbuprenorphine to buprenorphine at lower dosing might be why low taperers have nearly or often as much difficulty with their dose drops and jumps as some of the higher jumpers. In theory anyway, but I've read enough anecdotal evidence to ascribe a high likelihood to the theory. And their is some science to back up the theory as well, with the part of the wiki entry that I bolded.

That is some interesting info boop, thanks! I'm going to choose to "believe" that lower doses = easier jump!! Mind over matter!!


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:38 am 
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Karen123 wrote:
Hi all, I wanted to check in.

I am so encouraged by Mama and RCA -

I do believe everyone is unique but one thing I absoutely believe is God is there for us all and will get us through this if we trust Him.


Hey Karen, so glad you checked in! I am also encouraged by you and Mama, and the cycle goes round and round :) I agree, I trust God, I know He is working for good even in the midst of this "mess" I've gotten myself into.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:05 am 
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Day 7 at .375 mgs

Embarking on day 8. A week after dropping from .5mgs, I can say this was easier than the 1mg to .5mg drop in that I never did (so far) up my dose after I dropped--I sure came close a few times, but pushed through. It was/ is a bit harder in that I'm still feeling wdl symptoms 7-8 days in and have not stabilized yet. I am not really "suffering" whatsoever (and suffering is all relative anyway, isn't it?), just not feeling 100% yet. Lack of sleep is kinda getting to me now- I think I got 3 hours last night, but not sure exactly when I fell asleep, only that I've been up since 2am and just gave up trying at 3am. So, I'll be a little sleepy today but it wont kill me. Other symptoms are status quo from yesterday. Hot baths are a Godsend, right people?? I have a jacuzzi bath tub, and have been taking 3-4 hot hot baths daily lately. I'm lucky in that I have some time off work right now, but also am full time mom which is a big job in itself (if done right). I'm doing the best I can interacting with my kids, but it ain't always easy to be a "fun mom" when you don't feel tip top. I know I'll be an even better mom when this is over, and that is one of the thoughts that keeps pushing me forward. I'll be a better "everything" when this is over.

Today I'm thinking if I keep steady a few more days at .375mgs and the wdls ease up a bit, I will attempt .25mgs again, but this time split it into 2 doses spread evenly apart to keep me more "stable". Just thinking about it now, and "gathering courage".

Thanks again to everyone who has posted on this thread, and on this forum - every single piece of feedback, encouragement, and advice, helps, and I am very encouraged by reading about other's journeys along this rocky road!!
rca


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:01 am 
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Hey RCA, just my 2 cents but you may want to get rid of the Clonidine. I took Clonidine when I was cold turkey a couple days and that ruined me the next day. I felt weak, exasperated lack of appetite and dehydration, made me feel depressed and super dry mouth. I thought this was part of withdrawal but now I believe much of that was made worse by the "aftermath" of clonidine. Everyone is different but I would recommend no comfort meds and stabilize (you will not have as much competition recooping).


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:04 am 
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BTW, my apologies for my long rant post yesterday, this is RCA's thread and didnt mean to talk about me.

Boop, thank you so much for your explanation..Wow, you are extremely insightful? I didnt understand completely your reply but I think the jest is - the lower the dose that other drug has a chance to cover more receptors than at higher doses and as a result gives you a more full agonist reaction (hense the buzz). I get confused how I can have withdrawals at higher doses then when I finally get lower and stabilize get buzzed from the lower dose? this drug is so mysterious and weird.


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:21 am 
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RCA, I have found (for me) reducing 10% is so much less eventful than 50% drops. You have the chart now so you can mark up the orange film and cut the corner off of your larger .25 piece (10%- .063). If you dose twice a day, - an example would be: (am): .187 (.25 less 10% (.063)) and then 2nd dose the .125 - total: .313 (down 10% from .375). Eventually after you level on that, you can drop another 10% from the larger piece and be .125/.125. Sounds reasonable anyway.:)

l


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:29 am 
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Karen123 wrote:
BTW, my apologies for my long rant post yesterday, this is RCA's thread and didnt mean to talk about me.
.


No worries; "My thread is your thread" anytime- we're all in this together, and I love reading all posts on this thread, even the "long rants" lol :D !


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:35 am 
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Karen123 wrote:
Hey RCA, just my 2 cents but you may want to get rid of the Clonidine. I took Clonidine when I was cold turkey a couple days and that ruined me the next day. I felt weak, exasperated lack of appetite and dehydration, made me feel depressed and super dry mouth. I thought this was part of withdrawal but now I believe much of that was made worse by the "aftermath" of clonidine. Everyone is different but I would recommend no comfort meds and stabilize (you will not have as much competition recooping).


Thanks for the 2 pennies Karen :D , My first day on this forum, a few people recommended clonidine to me right off the bat- I had no idea what it was, and at that time was not prepared to get any meds, so was just kinda powering through with the remainder of a Xanax scrip I had. When that ran out, I was without meds for awhile and did ok, but was white knuckling it a lot of the time-- I don't know how long I could have kept that up and still worked and cared for my kids. (For me) the clonidine has been a real life savor. It truly calms my wds so they are more manageable, which gives me strength to continue powering through. I hear you about the grogginess and dry mouth. I don't take the clonidine early in the day, and am careful with the amount so I'm not too groggy. Also, I am drinking a TON of water and pedialite to keep the dehydration at bay. Thanks again for the warning though!


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:23 am 
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Be careful with xanax!! Im 5 months off and still have sx !! Just my two cents :o

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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:44 am 
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Ya, I won't be touching Seroquil ever again (I probably should just chuck it like you suggest).

I took a Clonadine last night just before bedtime, then dropped off like a rock, and basically slept right through the night (I awoke briefly at one point really feeling my Sub level coming down).

I woke up feeling rested, but very fogged-out -- not bad, just fuzzy minded, or more fuzzy minded than usual, lol. Too busy at work to go through this every morning, so I probably will hold off on the Clonadine unless it's absolutely needed (i.e. in case I get several sleepless nights in a row). Do you get this feeling from Clonadine?

I'm now on day 4 of my drop from .75 mg/day to .5 mg/day, and I'm feeling pretty good generally. Physical fatigue comes and goes but is manageable. The wild emotional roller coaster ride of the past few weeks has smoothed out alot. No idea of what tomorrow will bring but for today, so far, so good.

-- JI

rca1004 wrote:
johnny_ikon wrote:
....How are you using the Clonidine rca (i.e. what size doses and when)? Opened up a cupboard this morning and -- surprise! -- I have an almost full bottle of Clonidine left over from when I got off methadone. Also found a nearly full bottle of Seroquel, but that's going to stay where it is.

-- JI

....Lucky you to find the clonidine!! Not sure what seroquel is, but maybe you should get rid of it??? With the clonodine, since you asked, I usually take 1/2 pill (I forget mgs, but can look it up if you like) mid afternoon when and if I start to feel more intense wdls. Then for sleep lately I've been taking a whole pill together with just a little bit of Xanax about an hour before bed. If I can't get more than 3 hours of sleep, I take another 1/2, but that hasn't happened often. I'm trying to go as light as I can on the comfort meds so they'll still have an effect (and I'll still have enough!) when I actually jump.

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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:03 pm 
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rca1004 wrote:
no_boop_shoo_be_doop wrote:
That said, an increased ratio of norbuprenorphine to buprenorphine at lower dosing might be why low taperers have nearly or often as much difficulty with their dose drops and jumps as some of the higher jumpers. In theory anyway, but I've read enough anecdotal evidence to ascribe a high likelihood to the theory. And their is some science to back up the theory as well, with the part of the wiki entry that I bolded.

That is some interesting info boop, thanks! I'm going to choose to "believe" that lower doses = easier jump!! Mind over matter!!


Oh, sorry RCA, I didn't mean for that to be discouraging. I think knowledge is power, and it's good to be as informed as possible about what one is struggling with, whether its something like sub withdrawal or anything else.

Regardless of the theory, I still think tapering to a very low dose is the best route for some people. Perhaps if one goes low enough with taper, its perhaps something like tapering from, then jumping off at a few Vicodins a day, which is generally easy (symptom-wise, mental battle is another ball game) for most people with a physical opiate/opiod dependance, just drawn out longer with bupe.


Last edited by no_boop_shoo_be_doop on Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:23 pm 
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Don't want to hijack this thread, but I've got another question about Clonidine, rca. I just read that I could feel fuzzy for a couple days after taking Clonidine last nite, is this true? Clonidine was very useful when doing the Methadone -> Suboxone jump, but not liking it now at all.

I've got a first date tentatively scheduled for tomorrow night (actually it's a second 1st date, it's complicated, lol), wonder if I should just postpone.

-- JI



johnny_ikon wrote:
I took a Clonadine last night just before bedtime, then dropped off like a rock, and basically slept right through the night (I awoke briefly at one point really feeling my Sub level coming down).

I woke up feeling rested, but very fogged-out -- not bad, just fuzzy minded, or more fuzzy minded than usual, lol. Too busy at work to go through this every morning, so I probably will hold off on the Clonadine unless it's absolutely needed (i.e. in case I get several sleepless nights in a row). Do you get this feeling from Clonadine?-- JI

rca1004 wrote:
johnny_ikon wrote:
....How are you using the Clonidine rca (i.e. what size doses and when)? Opened up a cupboard this morning and -- surprise! -- I have an almost full bottle of Clonidine left over from when I got off methadone. Also found a nearly full bottle of Seroquel, but that's going to stay where it is.

-- JI

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"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn both of them with fire."
-- Rumi, Sufi poet and teacher


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:27 pm 
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no_boop_shoo_be_doop wrote:
rca1004 wrote:
no_boop_shoo_be_doop wrote:
That said, an increased ratio of norbuprenorphine to buprenorphine at lower dosing might be why low taperers have nearly or often as much difficulty with their dose drops and jumps as some of the higher jumpers. In theory anyway, but I've read enough anecdotal evidence to ascribe a high likelihood to the theory. And their is some science to back up the theory as well, with the part of the wiki entry that I bolded.

That is some interesting info boop, thanks! I'm going to choose to "believe" that lower doses = easier jump!! Mind over matter!!


Oh, sorry RCA, I didn't mean for that to be discouraging. I think knowledge is power, and it's good to be as informed as possible about what one is struggling with, whether its something like sub withdrawal or anything else.

Regardless of the theory, I still think tapering to a very low dose is the best route for some people. Perhaps if one goes low enough with taper, its perhaps something like tapering from, then jumping off at a few Vicodins a day, which is generally easy (symptom-wise, mental battle is another ball game) for most people with a physical opiate/opiod dependance, just drawn out longer.

Oh, no problem whatsoever - I totally agree, knowledge is power, that is one of my "mantras" so I was seriously thanking you for the info. So much of this taper / jump process is "mental" (for me anyway), so I was just kinda "telling myself" it isn't gonna be so bad. Keep the info coming! I love knowledge!!


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 Post subject: Re: Need support
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:34 pm 
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JI- I wish I could give you an thorough answer, but I am not a dr. I can only tell you that "for me" if I just take one or 1/2 a pill about an hour before bedtime, which for me is around 10pm, I have been waking up generally at 4-5am, feeling fairly alert and not "foggy". Hopefully you'll get some more solid answers about this. Ask Boop- He seems to have lots of knowledge, or of course you can always just do a search on the internet and read.

Enjoy your 2nd / 1st date!! :D


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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