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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Hi all - I've begun the liquid taper method (I was 2 wks off suboxone by using Neurontin, clonodine, ambien, and ativan and klonopin (old scripts I had). Went to sub Dr. at 2 wks off and he insisted I do not use the benzos to help any more. I listened to him and became miserable almost immediately (those vague but unbearable withdrawl symptoms) Well, I toughed it out for 3 days like that (still using Neurontin and clonodine) and could not take it anymore. We are closing on a new house and my sons need their mother so here is what i did: I began the liquid taper at .8 mg (8mg pill dissolved in 10ml water - dose of 1ml = .8mg). It works great and misery gone [although i did find i had to break dose into .4 in am and .4 in pm as I ended up with bad withdrawls the next morning if I took the whole .8mg the morning before]. Anyhow, I wanted to get my Dr. and therapist and sponsor and fiancee on board so I wasn't doing anything secretly or addictively because I AM TOTALLY SERIOUS ABOUT GETTING OFF SUB AND GETTING MY LIFE TOGETHER AND STAYING CLEAN FOR THE SECOND HALF OF MY LIFE!!! (i'll be 40 in a couple months Yikes!! lol). So now I have emergency w/ sub Dr. in 10 days (he wants me to stay at .8 daily until I see him) and I need the original post about liquid taper method to print out for him. I'm hoping he supports me in continuing the liquid taper method rather than try to make me just jump off and deal with the misery. He is a recovering addict with 30 plus yrs clean and very passionate about helping his patients so hopefully he will work with me. So many sub drs DO NOT understand this medication AT ALL and this causes lots of ppl to go back out (in my opinion and experience w/ friends; ppl at meetings) or end up feeling misunderstood and unsupported and thus trying to do this all on our own. That's what happened w/ me. 2 different sub drs. I went to didn't get it at all. I went to them because they took my insurance. One was a monstor and actually treated patients like the scum of the earth and the other pushed massive amounts to keep the patient on sub forever. The last increased me from 12 mg to 24 mg for no reason except that they said it was the optimal dose for all addicts. I am a small framed, 106 lb woman so it seemed crazy to be on such a high dose. Anyhow... sorry to ramble. Like all of us, there is so much to my story that I cant capture all the details at once and yet I feel like I want someone, anyone to fully understand. Bottom line - I really need that original post from Dr. J that I read months ago and I cant find it on here for some reason. If anyone can get me the link or copy and paste it or anything that I can print for my Dr. in 9 days I would be so grateful. Looking forward to your help. Thanks All for taking the time to read all this and try to help. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Just thought I would mention that my new sub dr. seems to be a really good guy. He is one of the pioneers of using sub for detox and started helping his patients back in the 1970's by experimenting with putting bupenorphine in a lozenge (he had them made up special for each patient) and he changed the lives of many addicts way back then (according to his loyal assistant / secretary.) I'm impressed and hopeful and therefore willing to pay out of pocket for his help (they do not accept insurance in most forms). Don't know why i felt the need to add this info. other than to maybe give a bit of hope that there ARE Dr.s who are willing to try new things and be openminded in order to help addicts. He and molly (secretary) seem to be super passionate about helping addicts and I have a lot of respect and gratitude for that. Hopefully I won't get let down again and find out Im wrong about him. Wish me luck everyone please. I really really want to be able to get off and stay off sub and all drugs successfully. Dont get me wrong... Suboxone is a miracle for many ppl and definately saved me in the first months of getting of heroin. I only used for 3 months (heroin and crack), I have been addicted to alcohol most of my llife and did other drugs sporadically when I binged but when I found the crack and fell in love with it and then the heroin to come down from the crack, I dove in 100% and used every day all day for 3 mos straight. Went down to 90 lbs, sooooooooo strung out and lost and a big huge mess, and when I had that first taste of withdrawl I was terrified!!!! Suboxone saved me from that and from having to keep using. I hate that life, it was horrible. Nobody would peg me for a junkie or crackhead as I've always been a professional, martha stewart, innocent seeming gal - but I blew my own mind with how fast and fully I became just that! For me, drugs (including alcohol) are the f-ing devil and the more I try to get better and live right, the more that devil (my disease of addiction, i guess) wants to torture and eventually kill me. Arghhh - ya'll know what I mean. Anyhow, I should say that Sub is also saving my fiancee. He relapsed hard after 8 yrs clean (and took me with him :( ) and he could not stop for 2 yrs. Now on suboxone and seeing this Dr. that I'm now seeing, He is back to running his business and drag racing and being off drugs. Everyone is different and we all need different methods and mixtures of methods to get and stay clean (in my opinion, that is). I empathize and support each and every addict on this forum, at my meetings, and in the whole wide world! We are sick ppl, not bad ppl. We started out like everyone else, never knowing we were going to become addicts and that the drinks we took at parties or the line of coke or the bump of heroin was going to lead us to where we are now. Non-addicts or "normies" can have that one drink or line and then stop and go on with their lives. For me and other addicts I know, we fall in love so to speak with that drink or line or whatever and the disease of addiction is triggered and then that's it..... I didn't choose to be this way but I do choose to take what I've learned about how to not have to use and TRY my best to make it work. Again I have rambled. Sorry. I feel really strongly about all this. If I can actually get and stay clean for a chunk of time, I hope that I can somehow advocate for all addicts and try to change the stigma and the way ppl judge and misunderstand addicts and addiction. Oy vey, I get so fired up!!! lol Sorry. Best wishes to everyone :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:52 pm 
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I think you might be referring to this sticky http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=296 Dr J didn't post it, but he commented on it on the first page a couple of posts down. Good luck


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:59 pm 
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Here's the link to the original blog post where I got the idea for my taper:

http://suboxonetalkzone.com/2009/03/01/ ... addiction/

Micrograms, tapering and the ubiquitous nature of addiction is the name of the post, here is the relevant section:



Quote:
OK.. Micrograms. This simply refers to the new info that was sent to me by a nice gentleman who I cannot mention by name… and a topic that I referred to a couple posts ago. I mentioned that in order to taper off Suboxone, you must think in terms of micrograms, not milligrams. When you take an 8 mg pill of Suboxone, you are taking a supra-maximal dose of buprenorphine– a dose that is off the scale. The ‘ceiling’ is way up high, far above the doses that are used clinically for treatment of acute pain. As I have said, 24 mg, or 4 mg, of Suboxone are both as potent as 30 mg of methadone! So your taper off Suboxone doesn’t really start until you get below 2000 micrograms per day– or 2 mg, which is a quarter of a pill. To do a proper taper, you want to think in terms of tapering down from 2000 micrograms to zero, in small steps.

I had an idea of how to do this at about the same time I received the message from the nameless contributor who had done his own tapering studies. He did what I had finally figured out; take an 8 mg tablet and dissolve it in a small amount of liquid– water would probably be fine. You want a small enough volume so that when you put it in your mouth it is concentrated enough to cause absorption of the drug through mucous membranes, but a large enough volume so that it can be measured accurately. I suggest using a vial that childrens’ medicine comes in– one with a measured eye dropper. calculate out the concentration of buprenorphine, and then use the dropper to take a measured dose of the liquid each day. At some point– if you start getting withdrawal by the end of the 24 hour period– you might want to change to dosing every 12 hours (cut each dose in half, of course). I recommend making a reduction in dose every one or two weeks– if you are still feeling sick from the step a week earlier, don’t make another change until you feel better. In general, each drop in dose should be a drop of about 10%. Be sure to keep the mixture refrigerated, and toss it if it develops a foul odor!

If you taper very slowly, you should be able to avoid the vast majority of the withdrawal. It will take a long time though, so be prepared to keep at it for months. If, on the other hand, you need clean urine very quickly…. you have little choice but to simply stop, and tell everyone that you have mono again. (gee… seems like you are ALWAYS getting mono!),


He writes about the liquid taper in a couple of other posts but nothing really detailed.

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You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:34 pm 
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Thanks so much New_Sub and Diary of a Quitter. This information was just what i was looking for! I have read many of your posts Diary and want you to know you are an inspiration and your posts have helped and encouraged me alot. I'm still doing good with the taper - I've actually moved down to 400 mcg morning and 200 mcg evening which is 200 mcg less that I was on at the time of my last post. Waiting to see doc on Saturday. I'll try to post and let you all know if anything noteworthy happens. Thanks again guys - this is how addicts help eachother and I sure appreciate you taking the time to reply :)


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 Post subject: Update on my taper...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Hello all. My liquified sub taper is going pretty well so far. My doctor appointment was positive also. I will start a new topic to journal how the taper goes. Thanks again to those who replied to my request for the taper method original post. Oh... I also should mention that the Dr. was so impressed and excited about this method that he is implementing it in his new state of the art facility!! He is having his compounding pharmacist create liquified doses individually for each patient. This could actually be the answer for so many people (like me) who just can't seem to find success with the usual taper of 2mg every other day or some version of that. I'm going to email Dr. with my updates, withdrawl symptoms, etc. (and hopefully eventual complete success at tapering!) - and I gave Dr. the website so he can see just what a great resource it is for himself. Point is: Dr. J and this website are Godsends that have far reaching benefits for so many addicts and I'm super greatful! Good luck to everyone in whatever phase of treatment you're in. Suboxone is such a wonderful medication for treating opiate addiction and if we can find a universally effective way to taper successfully, that could eliminate one of the major downfalls/stumbling blocks that suboxone patients face!


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