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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:24 pm 
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Hello everyone,
I can't explain how happy I am to have found this forum, and in my perusing of the side effects section and the mood and depression section, I find that a lot of issues I have been having since going on subtext/suboxone are not unique to me and are likely due to the medication. This is making me want more than anything to just get off the medication. Thats where I need your help.

I have been on 8mg (4 x 2mg) for about 2 months now, and I am having issues sleeping through the night, severe social/general anxiety, complete loss of sex drive, issues with eyes focusing on objects, nodding out but not feeling any high so to speak, depression, apathy etc. I just can not live like this, I constantly have to self monitor my mood and keep myself from getting depressed or angry and resentful for no reason. I am only 20 years old, and I have no intention on being on this medication for more than a few months doing a long term taper (10% reduction per month, then alternating dose every other day once down to 1 mg, then naltrexone IV to induce precipitated WD.....my Doc's idea and he says he has had a lot of luck with it. )

where I am at right now is I will take my 4mg in the morning usually around when i wakeup, then take another 4mg around 5 or 6pm. When I re-dose, I usually don't feel much better, but I am feeling pretty drained and exhausted both physically and mentally, tons of anxiety, apathetic, angry at everyone and everything, and on the verge of a panic attack and just extremely frustrated...which does not put me in the mood to have sex with my girlfriend by the time I get home from work. She is incredibly beautiful and I have never had this issue before, if we begin to have sex it is usually incredible, but my desire to initiate it is never there and I feel terrible about it. I feel like I am always walking a fine line between being kind of happy and content, and being horribly depressed and a wreck. my mood changes 180 degrees at the drop of a pin and I am becoming very bipolar. I have never had these issues prior to subutex, not even really when on opiates/opiods. I really need to just bite the bullet and get the fuck on with my life.

Please help me come up with a taper plan, I would like to do this maybe over a month, as I will continue to work and have things I need to do so I do not think any quicker would be possible without me being useless at work (though I currently sort of am). My sub dr will prescribe me any medications I need (clonidine, ambien, naltrexone, etc) so please help me get something figured out so I can begin this taper and get my life back.

I welcome all commentary and criticisms, and any information is helpful.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:27 pm 
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subutech12 wrote:
Hello everyone,
I can't explain how happy I am to have found this forum, and in my perusing of the side effects section and the mood and depression section, I find that a lot of issues I have been having since going on subtext/suboxone are not unique to me and are likely due to the medication. This is making me want more than anything to just get off the medication. Thats where I need your help.

I have been on 8mg (4 x 2mg) for about 2 months now, and I am having issues sleeping through the night, severe social/general anxiety, complete loss of sex drive, issues with eyes focusing on objects, nodding out but not feeling any high so to speak, depression, apathy etc. I just can not live like this, I constantly have to self monitor my mood and keep myself from getting depressed or angry and resentful for no reason. I am only 20 years old, and I have no intention on being on this medication for more than a few months doing a long term taper (10% reduction per month, then alternating dose every other day once down to 1 mg, then naltrexone IV to induce precipitated WD.....my Doc's idea and he says he has had a lot of luck with it. )

where I am at right now is I will take my 4mg in the morning usually around when i wakeup, then take another 4mg around 5 or 6pm. When I re-dose, I usually don't feel much better, but I am feeling pretty drained and exhausted both physically and mentally, tons of anxiety, apathetic, angry at everyone and everything, and on the verge of a panic attack and just extremely frustrated...which does not put me in the mood to have sex with my girlfriend by the time I get home from work. She is incredibly beautiful and I have never had this issue before, if we begin to have sex it is usually incredible, but my desire to initiate it is never there and I feel terrible about it. I feel like I am always walking a fine line between being kind of happy and content, and being horribly depressed and a wreck. my mood changes 180 degrees at the drop of a pin and I am becoming very bipolar. I have never had these issues prior to subutex, not even really when on opiates/opiods. I really need to just bite the bullet and get the fuck on with my life.

Please help me come up with a taper plan, I would like to do this maybe over a month, as I will continue to work and have things I need to do so I do not think any quicker would be possible without me being useless at work (though I currently sort of am). My sub dr will prescribe me any medications I need (clonidine, ambien, naltrexone, etc) so please help me get something figured out so I can begin this taper and get my life back.

I welcome all commentary and criticisms, and any information is helpful.


I had a doc do that to me with naltrexone after about 5 days clean from H. It was a combo of a test to see if I was "in the clear", and if not, push out any remaining residuals. I wanted to kill him after, I felt so much dysphoria, but it went away within a matter of hours, so maybe was a good thing ultimately.

If I were you, I might try tapering down and jumping at 2mg if you want end this quickly, since you haven't been on it long. It seems at 2mg and lower is when it starts to get really difficult for many folks, with the taper drops. There's a theory why, to which I give a high probability (although not certain) of being true. See this post for more info: need-support-t10311-100.html#p85747


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Also, check out Trainer's thread, she jumped at 2mg and was on subs longer than you, and has been doing really well, she just got to day 14/two weeks off of sub.

doing-t10439.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:05 pm 
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Thank you for the support, I think that is what I needed to hear. So now, would it make sense to get to 1 or below before jumping, or jump at 2mg to avoid the phenomena described in the linked threads ( below 2mg the competition for norbupe and dupe favors norbupe, causing these low doses to feel much stronger)?

So far today I have only taken 2mg and I feel fine...I actually feel a bit of a buzz. We'll see how I feel i a few hours but I am going to do everything I can to avoid redosing. Any medications I should request from my dr before he leaves for the weekend?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Last edited by h0pe on Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:14 pm 
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subutech12 wrote:
Thank you for the support, I think that is what I needed to hear. So now, would it make sense to get to 1 or below before jumping, or jump at 2mg to avoid the phenomena described in the linked threads ( below 2mg the competition for norbupe and dupe favors norbupe, causing these low doses to feel much stronger)?

So far today I have only taken 2mg and I feel fine...I actually feel a bit of a buzz. We'll see how I feel i a few hours but I am going to do everything I can to avoid redosing. Any medications I should request from my dr before he leaves for the weekend?


Sounds like you're covered med-wise, with what you mentioned in first post. I personally don't like naltrexone though, except perhaps short term. It can also block the body's natural opiates from what I understand, which are needed for emotional and physical pain, so can put that part of healing process on hold, and have heard of it causing dysphoria in some moderate to long term naltrexone users. But short term it might help to curb craving for any opiates, since you'd be wasting your time trying to get high with it in your system.

Maybe ask for Phenergan/Promethazine, its an antihistamine that will help if you experience any nausea, and also helps dry up the 'leaks' (sneezy, runny nose, tearing at eyes when not actually crying, etc). It is also said to have some anti anxiety properties. More info on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promethazine


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:58 pm 
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I don't even understand taking naltrexone at same time as tapering from subs, if that is what your doc has in mind, unless he thinks there'll be some sort of a placebo effect by still using bupe, along with naltrexone (some docs are not above being completely honest if they think its in the best interest of their patient). It is a stronger antagonist than naloxone, which I think is put in suboxone just to scare people from using it IV, who are uneducated about opiod antagonists, as bupe beats naloxone at attaching to opiate receptors, hands down, slam dunk. I've read its true of naltrexone as well (that bupe has a higher affinity than naltrexone to the opiod receptors) , but it might be dose dependent, since they use it for rapid detox (when one is put under anesthesia and has massive amounts of naltrexone pumped into their body) of bupe users.

Take what I say with a grain of salt about the naltrexone though, as I'm not your doctor, and maybe he knows what he is doing, perhaps by giving you a low enough dose (as opposed to the tsunami of naltrexone used for rapid detox under anesthesia) where the bupe still has some effect, assuming the bupe can get to receptors with lower naltrexone doses. *shrugs*


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:21 pm 
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Previous post^ edited for elaboration.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:08 pm 
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When I was being treated by shrinks for bipolar, I really pissed some of them off when I knew more about pharmacology than they did, as its not really the primary focus of their training. Some elevate themselves to a god-like status, and in their minds, patients are not supposed to be proactive in their treatment, but rather submissive. I finally found one who would listen to me and my ideas (I know myself better than anybody, including a doctor), and then do some fact checking, and was willing to prescribe some things off-label that I knew about but weren't FDA approved for bipolar treatment, but for which their was evidence of efficacy for bipolar in semi obscure clinical studies, and had a lower toxicological profile. She was actually happy about the give and take conversations on such topics, and later started treating some of her other patients in a similar matter, after using me as a knowledgeably willing guinea pig.

What's really interesting is food supplementation, such as omega-3 fatty acids, abundant in fish oil, has been studied and shown to help with mood stabilization of depression disorders and bipolar disorders. Here is an example of such a study:
Quote:
Long-chain omega-3 fatty acid (LCn-3) deficiency in mood disorders: rationale for treatment and prevention.

Dietary LCn-3 supplementation is safe and well-tolerated with chronic administration and corrects LCn-3 deficiency in MDD and BD patients. LCn-3 supplementation has been found to augment the therapeutic efficacy of psychotropic medications in the treatment of mood symptoms and to reduce suicidality. Preliminary studies also suggest that LCn-3 supplementation is efficacious as monotherapy in the treatment and prevention of psychopathology in children and adolescents. LCn-3 supplementation is also associated with reduced risk for developing coronary heart disease. The overall cost-benefit ratio associated with LCn-3 supplementation provides a strong rationale to diagnose and treat LCn-3 deficiency in MDD and BD patients, and to prevent LCn-3 deficiency in subjects at high risk for developing these disorders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21838665


Things like LCn-3/Omega-3s aren't profitable for the pharmaceutical companies, which is where much of the funding for treatment research originates, so one can draw their own conclusions with that in mind.


This might all seem off topic, and to a degree it is (Omega-3s might help with depression if one has it during and/or after detox, tho), but if you swim through the threads in this forum, you'll find lots of advice on using certain food supplements and dietary adjustments to help with WDs, and hasten healing of brain chemistry that can contribute to PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome). There is a sticky about PAWS at the top of the forum. I suspect you'll have little or no difficulty with PAWS given your relatively short term use of suboxone, but everybody is different, so use the resource if the need arises.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:44 pm 
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A man dies, ascends toward heaven, gets to Saint Peter's pearly gates, and sees a guy running around with a white lab coat on, and a stethoscope. He asks St. Petey who it is, and who then replies, "Oh, that's God, he likes to play doctor sometimes".

(joke I heard from a nurse, awhile back)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:57 pm 
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no_boop_shoo_be_doop wrote:
A man dies, ascends toward heaven, gets to Saint Peter's pearly gates, and sees a guy running around with a white lab coat on, and a stethoscope. He asks St. Petey who it is, and who then replies, "Oh, that's God, he likes to play doctor sometimes".

(joke I heard from a nurse, awhile back)


That one cracked me up! My dad's a doc btw


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:23 pm 
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Thanks for the replies everyone. My doctor was indeed implying a large dose of naltrexone IV to induce Precipitated WD's, once stabilized at 1mg every other day. He then said he would provide meds to manage the horrible w/d but that it is then over and done with in a day rather than playing the 1mg tapering game for eternity like some of you have described. He has done it with around twenty people with a high degree of success, although he says it is absolutely miserable for the one day. Regardless, I have now gone 7 hours since taking my 2mg dose this morning, which is half of what my normal morning dose is. I would usually take my second dose of 4mg now, but I feel pretty decent (better than when taking the meds) so I am going to try and ride it out until tomorrow morning, and take 2 mg again. Does anyone have any advice for a rapid taper/detox from where I am now?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:24 pm 
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rca1004 wrote:
no_boop_shoo_be_doop wrote:
A man dies, ascends toward heaven, gets to Saint Peter's pearly gates, and sees a guy running around with a white lab coat on, and a stethoscope. He asks St. Petey who it is, and who then replies, "Oh, that's God, he likes to play doctor sometimes".

(joke I heard from a nurse, awhile back)


That one cracked me up! My dad's a doc btw


Heh, be sure to retell him the joke. :) If he hasn't heard it already (it's likely the joke went viral - pun not intended - in medical circles, at one time), he'll probably get a chuckle out it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZMmV6xXYFw


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:37 pm 
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subutech12 wrote:
Thanks for the replies everyone. My doctor was indeed implying a large dose of naltrexone IV to induce Precipitated WD's, once stabilized at 1mg every other day. He then said he would provide meds to manage the horrible w/d but that it is then over and done with in a day rather than playing the 1mg tapering game for eternity like some of you have described. He has done it with around twenty people with a high degree of success, although he says it is absolutely miserable for the one day. Regardless, I have now gone 7 hours since taking my 2mg dose this morning, which is half of what my normal morning dose is. I would usually take my second dose of 4mg now, but I feel pretty decent (better than when taking the meds) so I am going to try and ride it out until tomorrow morning, and take 2 mg again. Does anyone have any advice for a rapid taper/detox from where I am now?


I can't think of anything else to say myself, as it seems like a new, rather novel approach to me (or at least kind of obscure to me anyway, as I try to stay up-to-date on such things), and maybe your doc is really onto something, so keep us all updated on how it goes, your detox treatment might be a newer one (that hasn't made its rounds yet) that could be helpful for others.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:27 am 
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I suppose I am not being very clear. My doctor wants me to do a yearlong taper off of subtex, I would like to be off of it in the shortest time possible while still being able to work and maintain my day to day activities. I have only seen this doctor once and that is when he was prescribing me the medication. I am looking for alternatives here and would love some guidance/advice/encouragement, though I appreciate any and all feedback


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:09 am 
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subutech12 wrote:
I suppose I am not being very clear. My doctor wants me to do a yearlong taper off of subtex, I would like to be off of it in the shortest time possible while still being able to work and maintain my day to day activities. I have only seen this doctor once and that is when he was prescribing me the medication. I am looking for alternatives here and would love some guidance/advice/encouragement, though I appreciate any and all feedback


Yeah, I guess I misunderstood when you mentioned things like the "20 people with a high degree of success", what seemed a novel use of naltrexone and such, with what I thought was "take home" naltrexone to be used daily along with clonodine, ambien, and subs in original post, and nothing about his program of a year long taper. I thought he was going along with your plan, and trying to help you taper faster, short term.

Thanks for the clarification. I hope others chime in more on your thread, as you really seem determined to stop and and hear more advice from a variety of those with experience.

I don't know man, I'd say jump at 2 mg or 1 mg anytime (maybe plan for a time when you have less obligations and responsibility), if you are already stable at that dose, or when you get there, but it's only my opinion, but mostly based on fact you haven't been a long term user, as well as the previously mentioned theory about the norbupe metabolite having a little more to say ratio-wise to the brain's opiate receptors with bupe, at 2 mg and below.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:15 am 
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subutech12 wrote:
Thank you for the support, I think that is what I needed to hear. So now, would it make sense to get to 1 or below before jumping, or jump at 2mg to avoid the phenomena described in the linked threads ( below 2mg the competition for norbupe and dupe favors norbupe, causing these low doses to feel much stronger)?

So far today I have only taken 2mg and I feel fine...I actually feel a bit of a buzz. We'll see how I feel i a few hours but I am going to do everything I can to avoid re dosing. Any medications I should request from my dr before he leaves for the weekend?

Hey subutech, I also think boop gave you good advice. I really didn't experience more difficult physical wdls until I got under 1mg. Up to that point it was purely a mental game for me. If I didn't have kids to take care of, I think I would have jumped awhile ago and gotten it over with, but I have read and agree, it is a very personalized decision and you must do what is going to feel right and work for you. I'm doing the slooooowwwww taper plan, down from 12mgs to .375mgs and some days I think I'm just drawing out symptoms that probably wouldn't be much worse if I just jumped and got it over with, but like I said, each to his own, personally with the responsibilities of taking care of kids and not being able to "show" I am going through wdls has me choosing the slow taper method. Trainer's thread, jumping from 2mgs with no comfort meds and continuing to work is quite inspiring.Which every you choose, good luck and keep posting!
rca


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