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 Post subject: Need Help...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:35 pm 
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Hi, this would be my first post... I just have a couple of questions regarding treatment to which a Recovery Program has given my girlfriend.

First of all I should start by saying that both her and I are addicts, we started just like most people, the occasional Vicodin here and there. Well, it quickly turned into 160+ Mg of OxyContin a day as well as Heroin. We're now seeking treatment because we want this, badly.. and we also don't want to lose our lives. Her insurance is wonderful as she has a great job, but it is through Kaiser P. We actually did a lot of research on Suboxone and found a certified physician at a nearby Kaiser. Part of the reason we want to try this form of therapy is to be able to continue a normal life, she has a serious career and as important as I know it is that we would eventually have to W/D from Suboxone as well I think it would be much much easier to taper down from that with close observation rather than to hope that detoxing will work because sometimes, cravings simply are too much. Well, in short the doctor at the Chemical Dependancy program were very very reluctant to prescribe Suboxone, they said too many people use it as a crutch and we would have to withdrawal from that as well. We decided to try their methods because we had no other choice. They gave her Valium, Clonidine, Bentyl, Robaxyn and Ibuprofen. She hated this zombie like state these drugs would put her in and in short the cravings were never suppressed, something I knew Benzodiazepines were not going to cure. After withdrawaling so long we used again, and it is not as if we dont want to be clean.. Our brains just dont reason correctly, if there is money in our hands and we aren't feeling good we are going to want to use. Thats just how an addict's brain works. I thought these specialists would know this. We went back the next day and told them everything I have said, they got very mad at her saying they will only let her mess up one time. She told them her cravings are just too intense, mouth-watering if you will. They prescribed her only 3 2mg Suboxones and said if she doesn't come back the next day they would not give them to her, which we understand she has to be monitored and counseled but we dont have a vehicle right now and it is very far from us. I just can't understand why a Suboxone certified physician is so reluctant to give out medication that just might save somebodies life, especially if the alternative is not working. I really don't know where else to post this but i thought it was appropriate to place it here and I hope it is. I'm sorry for listing a whole story of a post and such, but some of the folks at pharmer were pretty amazed to see that the physicians there would give her so many benzo's yet withhold another form of treatment. So I thought I'd try to take my posts elsewhere, I appreciate any opinions and replies; we go back tomorrow and so far the 3 Suboxones have helped SO much more than anything we have both ever tried in our lives. She goes to work tomorrow and has one to take and I am just so relieved that I don't have to think of all the pain she will have to go through while trying to keep a tough exterior at work. I think Suboxone is a great tool to something we want so badly we can taste it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:05 am 
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Welcome to the site. Let me start off by saying that you have made a wonderful decision in ending your addictive lifestyle.You should both feel good about that and NOBODY should take that away from you. Now, on to your treatment. I went through a similar situation with a hospital run recovery program so I will assume the mentality is pretty much the same with most programs of that statute. Do not get discouraged just yet. There are options for you. In my situation, I went through a Intensive Outpatient program at a hospital and was prescribed Suboxone.They had very strict guidelines and forced me to attend 3 AA/NA meetings per week.I had told the doctor multiple times that my daily dose of Suboxone was not providing enough relief and they refused to alter the dose.I had done extensive research on Suboxone before I ever entered the program so I had a good idea of what treatment should have entailed.To make a long story short-The program was a scam.Let's just say when I needed this place the most, they turned their backs on me.No, I did not relapse- but these people who claimed to be so compassionate and caring turned out to be a fraud that over charged my insurance company insane amounts of money for the treatment I received.They billed the insurance for medication I never got, etc.
Anyway- in my opinion- I would look elsewhere for Suboxone treatment. Will you pay out of pocket? Yeah most likely, but you will have more say so in your treatment. I have been on Suboxone for two years, and have never been told by my current doctor that I HAVE TO taper. Some doctors feel long term maintenance is more beneficial in preventing relapses in treatment, and I was lucky to find a doctor who understood this practice. Every person is unique and each situation should be handled as such. For example, I have severe pain in my legs and if I was not on Suboxone- I would certainly be treating my pain with opiods and be dependent on them, which I do not want.
Sorry this turned out to be so long, but you sound like you got a one sided view and I wanted to let you know you have other options. Suboxone is not a crutch if used long term, it is a tool that proves to be very useful when combined with a well rounded recovery support system and lifestyle. Nobody should tell you when your body is ready to heal, your body makes that decision on it's own, and Suboxone offers you a way to maintain a life free of relapses when you use it correctly.
Look into finding a doctor who runs a private practice, it may take time but it will be worth it! If you have any other questions, feel free to post them or PM me or another moderator.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:40 am 
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I was lucky in that I found psychiatrists right from the start that were willing to prescribe. I did the induction 3yrs ago.

I would look in the suboxone directory. Just do search on google: opiate suboxone (city state). here in Maine I came up with like at least 6 Doctors. I have a temporary one, and have to switch to another. I am hoping that he will not pull a - you have to taper- because I have. Ive gone from taking them in the wrong way, like an addict 4mg-6-8 per day depending, and now in the last month or so, tapered down to 2mg. I just recently had a slip, that is on a post below. But that just will confuse things.
From the amount that you are taking, it seems that 8mg at least. I mean if you have been taking 160 oxy and H.... that is a lot of tolerance. Look at the Sub Docs post that discusses this at length. It is extremely informative.
At this point I do not care if the Sub Doc at Font du Lac is partially on the companies contribution list or not. He knows his stuff. I have messed w/ opiates all my life. I could list the ingredients of almost every prescribed opiate or non opiate. I learned to look for the right stuff in medicine cabinets. I also have an extensive education in biology. The sub doc's reasoning and medical knowledge is impressive and right on the mark. ie it adds up. He really has helped people regardless. Like what was said above. Welcome. Stick with it. It helps and it may take time in your case because of the amount of opiates. A long long time ago, before suboxone, I was in your shoes. I was taking both Methadone and H- 80mgs of the methadone, and the H. I went to treatment. It was a brutal withdrawal. All in all 12 days of hell then 3 months of extended hell, but not so bad. I was a youngster then, in my early 30's. I could not do it again. I would die.
I cut and pasted and meant to post a response to your need for help:
Personally I would try and find someone on the list of specialists/psychiatrists. DO IT PROPERLY.
I just recently screwed up, slipped, took OxyContin for a week. I have never taken the Contin form of oxycodone, only the immediate pure form of oxycodone. I did not wait, and took my last bit of oxyC the prior evening. Woke up, felt a bit crappy, and took the suboxone too soon. That was not fun. Im feeling a bit better today. YOU WANT to wait until you are in w/d. Otherwise you will have happen what happened to me. Precipitated Withdrawal.
OxyContin is weird. Because it is short acting combined with a resin that makes it long acting- Since about a year, it is a slightly new formulation. Even if you chew it it still is bound w/the resin. It therefore is released faster if you chew, but is still bound and slower to leave the system. W/ just oxycodone, ie percocette etc, I have had the experience of going into withdrawal sometimes only 8-12 hrs later. Not w/OxyContin. They changed the formulation. DO NOT REUSE. Give it time, find the right doctor and get on the right dose, and you will be ok. If you re-use it just prolongs and makes the hell worse. I promise you will be ok. Look at my post from yesterday. I was in hell. Today, I feel, like 80% better. That is a lot. Believe me.
You will be ok, just go through the process. Get the right doctor set up. The post above- he sums things up perfectly.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:29 pm 
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Wow I cannot thank all of you enough for the positive feedback, sometimes it's so embarrassing to admit your faults, even if the people don't even know you.

I have the same exact views as it seems everyone else here or at the Pharmer forums has as well, why would I be refused a treatment that ultimately could save me? I believe it does have something to do with the facility being hospital ran; and as well as I'd like to go somewhere else I don't exactly have that option right now. We have insurance through my girlfriend's job that is only at this hospital and their recovery unit, which provides in-home treatment along with counseling. All prescriptions are free as well. Sometimes when going there we don't even see a doctor, just a triage nurse that "assess'" you. I don't think thats right at all, I want a professional to talk to about my condition, it isn't a joke and as they have given us 3, 2mg Suboxone I have gotten more relief in one day that I would be in intense w/d's that I have ever gotten in my life, and like most addict's I have seriously tried to quit numerous times only to fail. I have never had this positive of an outlook in my life, and as much as it doesn't fully relieve my symptoms, it's better than any concoction of benzodiazepines they prescribed before. When we go today we are going to discuss all of this, my girlfriend will also explain that right now she much concentrate heavily on work as her position was moved and she had just missed a week of work due to all of this. We really can't afford to be in w/ds from heavy opiate abuse, and I understand that we have put ourselves in this position I don't believe we should not be given a try with this treatment. I believe it will work, especially if we want it to and I feel so much relief from this little amount, I can only imagine what a longer-termed treatment would bring. I believe it would bring total sobriety from Opiates which is something I could almost never believe before. Thank all of you for your support, it is invaluable. I was at rock bottom a week ago seriously thinking of ending everything, almost never thinking I'd feel normal again.


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 Post subject: another comment
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Hey, thanks for keeping us posted.
One thing I have noticed at treatment centers: I dont know if yours is the same. But the more you tell them stuff like
"I have to go back to work", it like sets a block off in their head. They will tell you stuff like, "whatever you put in front of our recovery etc". So, I don't know how much you should tell them about the "I have tos" They play head games.
But I am only guessing at this.
I suppose they are doing urine tests? If they are, and they detect opiates, even residual, it may be why they are doing this. But even that does not make sense. Because, once you take subs, that is it. So, if it is making you feel better, they should not hesitate. Its weird.
I would really stress that you were on large doses of opiates. Your tolerance level is high. So, they should respect that.

Not to be a jerk, but you mention that this is the only option and that you cannot afford another one...

Think twice about that. If you can find a good doctor, and explain your situation, he might help a lot more. In order to use the amount of oxy's and H you were using, I would guess that it far surpasses what you would have to spend for a suboxone doc?

Im just throwing out ideas, because it sucks that they are messing with your head. I really hope things work out for you.
I am going to my therapist now, but I hope the best and will check back.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Wow, I had never thought that they may think of something like that in response to saying how important work may be for the time being, but it makes total sense. They want full dedication towards recovery, which I agree with. They have not done any drug testing, but we've been nothing but honest. Since giving us the Suboxone we have not used anything else except the other meds they gave for detoxing, and almost none of those. We stressed we were using very high doses of Opiates and they responded by saying we MUST stay there overnight. But we simply could not, my spouse had missed a week of work prior, and she can't get fired right now. The only reason I say it's the only option is because we have absolutely no money, none. I have given everything to my addiction, sold everything I had as value, and wouldn't hesitate to further it I'm sure if not given subox treatment. I really have a lot to tell them and my spouse as well, and I really have hope that they will understand. I really think they will, I have even started a small journal describing my feelings and what I am going through. I think it really helps and that is something I would never be doing in serious W/Ds, I'd be sitting around or even finding things to make money from or asking to borrow money. Something I described to them as being 'impulsive' and something I know Suboxone can control, and I alone, cannot. Once that's controlled I feel confident I can give up even that. If this does not work I will be forced to go to a money-paying clinic, I have called many in the area and there are many around that I have spoken to with very kind, understanding doctors. It's just so pricey, the initial visits range from 150-200 dollars and then the medication I hear is around 7$ a pill depending on amounts, and milligrams. Which I hear is pretty standard all around.
Wish me luck today! XD


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