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 Post subject: Need help really bad
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Hi. New poster. I don't want to write a post that hasn't already been written. Hard, but. I'll give you a brief description and then get to the questions.

5 year oxy/morph abuser. An attempted suicide landed me in a suboxone clinic and have currently been a 1-year subbox user. I tried to come off the stuff a little while back and didn't make it more than 5 days. I know how this goes down. I've tapered down to 2mg (not enough, I know) and have run out of meds - no more refills. I live in a different state now. Don't even have a doctor. Don't want one. I want this to be IT. I want drugs out of my life forever. I want to be happy.

Its been 48 hours since final dose. Panicking.

Been to so many subox forums and everybody speaks so differently about the process. Everyone says all this different stuff. Its frightning. Some people say to take hydros. What is this insanity?

Here's my deal:
I've never really felt like I've been a resilient person, physically or emotionally. I'm having a hard time going into tough guy mode where I just tell myself that I'll get through this. But I have to. No more suboxone. I'm 24 - moved away from my home town. I have no friends here. I don't have anyone to sit with me and help me through this.

I realize this is very long wind-up for one question. But it's important for you to understand why I'm asking it so I can get the right answer.

If I get a fear of harming myself during this process, the first thing I would do before giving in would probably go to the hospital. And explain my withdrawal.
What do you think they would do?
Do you think they would they would take a shivery little addict serious in a time of panic? Do you think they would try and force me to go back on more?
Do you think they would offer me anxiety medication? Or would they do nothing and give me a doctors reference.
Do they have a standard plan for when this happens?
Please tell me someone has some experience with this. I'm trying to think of a plan-B to calm my nerves in case of the worst.

Also is there some sort of crisis or help line for this sort of thing?


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:05 pm 
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Hi Coping,
It sounds like you could use a little help. I am on day 22 give or take a day off suboxone and the last couple of days have been good. I'm not going to lie to you, it can be a rough ride. You really need to have someone to give you support and encouragement in your life. Don't do it alone if at all possible. My strategy was based loosely on the "Thomas Recipe" which you can google minus the sleep aide. It can be pretty lengthy because of the long half life but you can do this.

There are a lot of great, knowledgeable folks on this site that will give you encouragement and great advice. You are not alone as we have all been there. I am very concerned that you might think about checking out as life is short the way it is. I gave my life to a higher power many years ago and that is what carried me through it.

If you need someone to talk to PM me your phone number and I'll call you no matter where you are!


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:44 am 
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Thanks. Good to know you're out there. Just rocking on my bed right now.


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 Post subject: reach out...
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:44 am 
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double post sorry


Last edited by chinagirl on Thu May 05, 2011 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: reach out...
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:47 am 
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Hi, I'm so glad you are writing and reaching out this way. This is a great forum for info and caring support. So keep reading .... it will also get your mind off of your physical self.

It's hard that you've moved away and don't know anyone. I don't know if you've ever been to AA or NA but if you find the right meeting you can really get a lot of support and encouragement. But you have to reach out..and right now you sound like you are struggling too much physically to do anything.

There are crisis lines in every city. google it for your city and call someone to talk to them...just having someone to talk to can make a huge difference. Call the previous poster...that person said they'd give you their number.....do that!

You can get comfort meds like clonodine (which lowers your blood pressure and heart rate and calms you and also helps you sleep) and maybe a benzo from a physician. Some ER's will even do that... It might be worth going to see if they would help you or call and try to get in to see a physician, maybe a psychiatrist who specializes in addiction even. If you are new to town you probably don't have a dr. i am assuming. Call around, many dr will take walk ins.

Sleep-wise you can take Melatonin. There is a 5mg extended release melatonin you can get at places like GNC or health stores, not available in the usual stores always....that will help you sleep possibly. Hot baths and try to walk, too, exercise a little will help.

It sounds like your goal is to stay off Sub, right? So you need to get through these next couple of days/weeks. It really depends on how long you've been on it and I think you said you jumped at 2mg? If you read the forum you'll find all sorts of things people have done to help stay off Sub. And don't feel like a failure if you have to go back on...you might need to go back and taper lower, longer....or (and this is RISKY, esp if you are alone) taking a few vicodins to help ease the withdrawal, if you can do it and then stop it, would also help.

Have you had a recovery plan or program in the past? Do you do any counseling or meetings or anything? There are a lot of ways to get support. SMART recovery, 12 step, therapy, groups, etc. google them and see what's going on in your new town. Find a sub support group even if you can. Call sub dr and ask if they know of any sub groups.

You sound pretty sad...and if you are thinking of hurting yourself please call the crisis line, continue to write on the forum...you'll get support and people will walk with you as you are going through this.

Stay strong....stay commited to recovery...I wish you well.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:47 am 
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Hi DifficultyCoping,

I'm here too...I will pray for you, that God be with you, strengthen you and keep you safe through this process.

Mental pain is tough...as rock says, you can get through this with determination and grit.

Post here and at other forums...there are lots of people who will respond...you will not be alone. Get a Bible...read it, pray for strength, reach out for God's help.

We're here.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Morning of day three. Its hard to say I've woke up because waking is relative to sleep, and asleep is not what I was. The physical pain, I'm taking all the vitamins for. And I'm prepared for the worst of that. But the nightmeres and emotional pain is what tears this whole thing down. I'm taking a melatonin supplement, and I feel my body goes into rest mode, and I even dream, but it's like I don't go into REM. I dream while I'm awake. These horrible horrible haunting nightmares that I cant escape from, meanwhile I am totally conscious of whats on the television, the sweat on my skin, the neighbors knocking around upstairs, and the horribly disconjointed thoughts running around making no sense and fueling the imagery. And its not like normal dreams, where I have one and wake up in the morning. Because I'm conscious I'm awake through all 472 dreams I have. In the moments where I do slip off, I'll awake to find it's only been 25 minutes.
My girlfriend of 5 years left me about a week before I had to start this withdrawal. I'm sure people here know what a nightmare after a breakup is like; haunting. Usually the worst dreams you get, you at least have that overpowering satisfaction of waking to find that they are not real. Not in this case. I get to spend 10 hours a night in suspended reality getting my heart crushed over and over again, in different and cruel ways. This of course inter spliced with visions of death and creatures stalking me.
Then finally coming out of this state... back to reality... where I'm just on day three. And have a really long damn way to go.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:52 pm 
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You can do it, just think how good you will eventually feel,do whatever you have to do to stay off,without hurting others or yourself. You the man.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Yeah. You know, I always thought it was kinda hard to take care of myself while on suboxone. It was always kinda like "I'm unhealthy, whats the point". I felt like I never truely conquered drugs, and I was just sort of cheating. I know it helped me out of a bad time though.

When I get done with this I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna clean my house more often. I'm going to start writing again. And I'm going to meet a girl that isn't 100% insane (debatable). I'm 24. I gotta figure this shit out.


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 Post subject: suicide is NOT painless
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Hi D-Coping and welcome to this forum--I'm glad you found us. Hopefully you are feeling at least a little less alone now. I wanted to address your original questions about what might happen if you end up feeling seriously suicidal--First of all, people above have offered suggestions for crisis support, but don't forget Suicide Prevention which has 24 hour hotlines manned by volunteers that you can call. I agree that if you become dangerously suicidal you should go to the hospital. Now, please be aware that I am not a doctor or any kind of expert in any health-related field at all, but, my understanding is that if you are seriously suicidal, that is, making serious plans on how to kill yourself, hospital personnel are required to take that very seriously--to the point that if you present as having an active plan to kill yourself, I believe they are required to admit you to the hospital. However, if you are having suicidal thoughts ('ideation") but not making any actual plans to go through with it I think they probably would NOT admit you to the hospital and I think how they end up handling that situation might depend on what individual hospital personnel/doctor you ended up seeing. Either way, they would probably want you to have a psych consult. If you see a psychiatrist, psychiatrists generally do tend to treat things from a medication-oriented standpoint and are likely to offer you prescriptions--very likely anti-anxiety and/or anti-depressants, and are likely to be more than willing to prescribe something to help with insomnia. Also, if you are going through withdrawal, i believe that most doctors will be willing to prescribe meds to help treat your symptoms--at least sleep meds if you are suffering from bad insomnia. I do not think that anyone at the hospital would try to force you to get back on suboxone. Still, if getting back on sub in order to taper more slowly is an option, you could consider that. I can understand you not wanting to be on sub anymore, and maybe not wanting to be on meds in general, but I would like to share my perspective on meds--I have struggled most of my life with suicidal thoughts, sometimes worse than others, but once when I was really in a bad way a friend of mine said "oh, try the medication before you kill yourself!" And I had to admit that was good advice. If there's a chance that something might help and make you stop wanting to kill yourself--well, it only makes sense to try it since once you are dead it will be too late and there are NO more options at all EVER once we are dead. In fact, after that incident, I did take my friend's advice and got on medication. For me, the antidepressant wellbutrin has been a big help with quelling the suicidal thoughts. I also believe that it's pretty common for a lot of people to take antidepressants for a while after they go through opiate withdrawal, to help with Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome which can last a long time and one symptom of PAWS can be bad depression.

I also wanted to say, yes, you are on day 3--because of the long half-life of sub you may just be getting into the main part of the withdrawal now and sure, you have a ways to go, and it is hard (I know how the time can seem to drag) but at the same time--you are ALREADY on day 3 and that in in itself is an accomplishment. Personally, I think that not being able to sleep can be one of the worst symptoms so you really might want to try to treat that, even as someone above suggested, with melatonin, or maybe over-the-counter sleep aids. Or if it gets too bad, go to the hospital, or (if you have insurance) get a doctors appointment through your insurance if you can and explain your situation and how bad the insomnia is, and any other symptom that you might be able to get relief through meds. I think someone already mentioned that clonidine is a standard med for treating opiate withdrawal and everyone says it helps a lot with a lot of the symptoms, including sleep.

Pleas accept my sympathy regarding your breakup with your gf. Breakups are the worst! No wonder if you are depressed! If you have a history of bad depression AND a recent breakup it can be really hard to feel like you can get through, I know. But in these cases, it is an accomplishment to persevere. One more thing--did anyone mention exercise already? Of course when we feel terrible, run down, exhausted, uncomfortable, and depressed we usually do NOT want to exercise at all, but everyone swears that the more physically active you are during withdrawal from sub, the better you will feel. Now, I know that it can feel impossible to get motivated to do anything--in fact I have personally just been through a really bad slump of several weeks when I have been dismally depressed and could barely do ANYTHING except sleep--but when I finally started to get a bit more active, the exercise did make me feel better. Even if you can only manage a little--like short walks, it's better than nothing. And, someone already mentioned that hot baths or showers are kind of a standard treatment too, right? Also, for sleep--sometimes I find that a REALLY hot shower or bath--I mean as hot as i can stand, and then going straight to a comfortable (well made) bed can help me get to sleep. Sooner or later you WILL be able to sleep, but insomnia can be an ongoing problem for a while, I know.

Anyway, you didn't say if you have insurance or not, it sounds like maybe not? And that you are considering the hospital as only a last resort in case you get dangerously suicidal, but if you do have any way of consulting a doctor, I would encourage you to do it, if you don't start feeling better on your own soon.

I also hope you will keep posting here and let us know how you are doing. Good luck, I hope you start feeling better soon!


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:30 pm 
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I appreciate the lengthy response. I do have insurance. The reason hospital is my most common form of reference for help partially because I live next door to the emergency room entrance. The other and more prominent reason is I have a history of seeing various doctors about various things related and there is always this layer of pratronizing undertone to the conversations. I've found very few doctors who handle peoples conditions with respect and act emphatically instead of speaking stark and clinically. With my intense agoraphobia brought on by the withdrawal, I don't know where to start. I'm having a hard time speaking. I cant see myself flicking randomly through a list of clinics to find one that may be the best then calling up an office to explain to a secretary, create an appointment, somehow manage to get outside to the location of wherever this may be, sit in the waiting room, and hope that I get a treatment/prescription for anti-anxiety that I feel comfortable with. The hospital I can walk outside, step to the left, and there are doctors ready to treat this like its an emergency. But thats a gamble too.

Just lost. Being a drug addict for so long, trying to scam meds from physicians so long, I think there is a stigma built into my brain about asking for help.
I know the obvious answer is to "just get overcome your emotions around that situation and go get help". But I dont overcome very well. I'm kind of pathetic. Its why I feel so self doomed.

I really appreciate everyones post. I really need something to check in on every half hour.


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 Post subject: carry on
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Hi again. I'm glad to hear that you do have health insurance--it gives you more options at least. i know what you mean about how hard it is to get help, believe me. What you said about finding a clinic, making the appointment, the waiting room, all of that--yes, I understand how hard all that is. It is for me too. Especially without support. For me, having a friend who is willing to spend a day or even a half a day helping me deal with that kind of stuff can make all the difference.

I don't know for sure, but i think it is likely you may be experiencing the worst of the withdrawal starting today....but that means the next stage will be it starting to get better...I hope it won't be long before you start to notice that pretty much every day you feel noticeably better.

If the forum helps you get through the day, that's great. I think when people post about their experience with taperiing or "jumping' off sub it provides really valuable information to many other, regarding what to expect, and also...knowing that others have got through the process and seeing some of the details of how they coped can just be really helpful. So I hope you keep posting here, thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:35 am 
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Dear Difficulty Coping; in your position in my opinion the thing you need most right now is someone to just be there for you. I know it is hard to reach and ask for help but love yourself enough to get assistance. I'm not sure your beliefs but if there is a church or AA,NA group nearby a call to them would probably allow you access to a caring person would could identify with your emotional state. We humans are social creatures that need interaction with others. Please do not isolate at a time like this. To ask for help is not weakness but bravery. Please don't let this offend you if you are not a church goer but one passage I hear says "in my weakness His grace is made perefect". Let a power greater than yourself work in your life. Be a blessing to another human and let someone help you. When you ask for help help you not only find the things you need to soothe your wounded soul but you also give another addict the chance to find worth in their lives too by helping another. It is a win-win situation. So if you feel it is difficult to reach out think of it as providing opportunity for another. Always remember you are important. Your life matters. I was once a homeless addict who was barely alive. I found myself living in the back of a stolen car that was how low I had become. I would have never known that I would be able to use that experience for the better of others but recently (20 years later) I was able to give my testimony to a middle school group who is going to work with homeless people this summer. You just don't know how your life will someday impact others. Don't quit before the miracle happens. I'll pray for you to persevere. If things get too bad then let me know and I'll give you my cell phone number if you want to talk. I know you are real uncomfortable right now but it will pass. Please let me know if I can help in any way. God bless you Brother.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Morning of day 4. So far its been dull aches, cold sweats, crawly skin, hearing things, heavy anxiety, and the worst part; The long hours of lucid nightmares and no true sleep. I really hope this doesn't last too much longer. Its killing me. Each symptom gets worse everyday. When does it plateu and begin to drop down?


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Hey Coping- Glad your still hanging tough. I don't think anyone can tell you how long it will last as it is different for all. It took 20 days for me but I'm old enough to be your father (and then some). I was on heavy opiates for 10 years and only on sub for two months. The doctor on this site indicated in one of his you tube videos that you aren't just coming off sub- you are coming off everything when on sub a short time. All I know for sure is I'm never looking back, I'm done with dope.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:23 am 
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Evening of day 4. Managed to get out of bed and took a shower. I felt surpizingly able to leave the house, and figured fuck it, everyone here says excerzise is the best thing, I'll give it a shot. Went to the gym. Did a half hour on the treadmill and I'll be damned if I didn't get off smiling.
I've never been big on gyms. I think they are silly. Big muscly shaved monkeys jumping around on big machines that scare me because I don't know how they work. Not to mention I'm a pip-squeak. I coat my body in tattoos as a defense mechanism like a forest frog in neon colorings saying "I'm small, but don't come near me, cause I'm dangerous. I'll mess you up". But I'm by no means strong or even in fit. So it was kind of an uncomfortable surrounding for me. But I popped in my headphones and went for it.

I still have icky skin, and I know probably wont sleep any better. But a lot of the anxiety went away. Thats big for me.

Anyone who hasn't tried excerizing yet, go for it. Its working. Its only day 4. I hope I'm not lying to myself and have just not got to the deathly part. But high hopes.

I'll check in tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:10 am 
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DifficultyCoping, you are also pretty witty and creative. That forest frog analogy is brilliant. :lol:

Man, I am pulling for you. And worried for you and really feel for you. I know you must be lonely and all, but I do believe you are a whole lot tougher than maybe you give yourself credit for. You already made it four whole days!! That is not easy. Good job getting your butt to the gym. It sounds simple, but man oh man, it can be tough to actually DO it.

You are 24. It seems like young guys pull through the w/d faster. Maybe it's the low body fat/high metabolism? I'm not sure, but maybe this won't last too terribly long. I'm checking this thread at least twice a day to see that you are okay. I sent you a PM, too. Not sure if you check them....

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Coping- Don't let those gym rats intimidate you. With what your doing you are a lot tougher than they are. Trust me I used to be one of those guys. I'm on day 26 and now feel great! Just hang in there, it won't last forever.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:53 pm 
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ladder tipper - I dont see a pm from you

Anyway. For day 5. Just got back from the gym. feel alright. more alright than I expected. The night time is the only part that scares me. Still awake and dreaming. My ex-chick attacks me like Freddy Krueger. I'm not exaggerating. Even if I just pass out for a second shes there to attack. Hard shit. She fucked me up like the ring fucked up Frodo.
But during the day, things have been ok. Doing chores. I'm getting hopeful. I pray there isnt the REAL wd waiting around the corner to show me the business. Like this whole thing has been pre acute withdrawal syndrome.

I hope laddertipper is right and my fast metabolism is shaking this out of me quicker than most.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:31 pm 
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DifficultyCoping, I can't even fully express how happy I was to read your posts from yesterday and today about getting out and going to the gym. That's fricking awesome and a huge change from where you were in your first post! I too think that your youth and faster metabolism will most likely help you have a shorter period of withdrawal, at least physically. I know that was true for me when I went my first rounds with opiate addiction and withdrawal when I was in my early 20's. Today at age 46 going through withdrawals is at least twice as severe and lasts longer too. Try not to trip on how you are going to feel tomorrow, just enjoy (I use that term loosely) the fact that you feel better today than you felt in the last several days. I know that it is difficult not to worry; I think if you keep up the exercise that it will really help with the physical and mental aspects of the withdrawal process, including the anxiety about what is to come.

Nighttime. Ugh. My worst times have always been at night, whether I'm going through withdrawals or not. I've had recurring major depressive disorder for all of my adult life. Anti-depressants help a hell of a lot (zoloft and wellbutrin) but I still experience periods of deep depression which include severe insomnia and unremitting nightmares when I do actually fall asleep. One tactic I find works for me is to say "fuck it" and get up out of bed and go watch a movie or read. Reading gets me through a lot. Several other people in this forum have said that getting dvd sets of tv shows you like or want to see and immersing yourself in them has helped them get through withdrawal. I too have done that in the past and recommend it. Stuff like Weeds, Dexter, The Sopranos etc are my favorites; I guess it's the dark humor that can make me laugh no matter how shitty I feel. It's certainly waaaay better than lying in bed in the dark trying to sleep and wrestling mental demons. Also, final suggestion, don't forget to get a bit of sun every day even if you typically avoid it. It really does help.

I'm so glad that you haven't mentioned feeling suicidal for a couple of days. I hope that means those feelings have passed for the most part. If they reappear, please call your local Suicide Hotline or get your ass out the door and into the ER. Please. They will take you seriously and they will help you. Too many people in my life have gone the suicide route and they really, really didn't need to die. Things do get better, really, you just have to reach out for help. Suicide hotlines are a great resource.

Again, I am glad that the last couple days have been better and that you are feeling hope for the future. Please continue to check in here, we really do care and are here to help one another.

Take care,

~Anna


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