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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:39 pm 
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DifficultyCoping wrote:
ladder tipper - I dont see a pm from you

Anyway. For day 5. Just got back from the gym. feel alright. more alright than I expected. The night time is the only part that scares me. Still awake and dreaming. My ex-chick attacks me like Freddy Krueger. I'm not exaggerating. Even if I just pass out for a second shes there to attack. Hard shit. She fucked me up like the ring fucked up Frodo.
But during the day, things have been ok. Doing chores. I'm getting hopeful. I pray there isnt the REAL wd waiting around the corner to show me the business. Like this whole thing has been pre acute withdrawal syndrome.

I hope laddertipper is right and my fast metabolism is shaking this out of me quicker than most.


I'm retarded. I know I typed you a PM but you are right. It's not in my 'sent' box, so I obviously did not send it. Sorry. I was waiting to get a reply, lol.....

I think you are probably going through the bad part already. It is not going to be as acute as full agonist opiate w/d. I don't think there is a big, scary w/d monster waiting around the corner that will jump out at you in five days. Nope, this may be as bad as it gets, but it may last longer than full agonist w/d. Won't it be wonderful if you've been expecting something much worse and it never happens? What a pleasant surprise that will be.

I do think it makes a lot of sense that people with fast metabolisms, especially younger guys, burn through their w/d faster. Why not? Your body process stuff fast, so it will process the Sub faster too!

Hang in there! You've already come a long way.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:44 pm 
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annabella65 wrote:
DifficultyCoping, I can't even fully express how happy I was to read your posts from yesterday and today about getting out and going to the gym. That's fricking awesome and a huge change from where you were in your first post! I too think that your youth and faster metabolism will most likely help you have a shorter period of withdrawal, at least physically. I know that was true for me when I went my first rounds with opiate addiction and withdrawal when I was in my early 20's. Today at age 46 going through withdrawals is at least twice as severe and lasts longer too. Try not to trip on how you are going to feel tomorrow, just enjoy (I use that term loosely) the fact that you feel better today than you felt in the last several days. I know that it is difficult not to worry; I think if you keep up the exercise that it will really help with the physical and mental aspects of the withdrawal process, including the anxiety about what is to come.

Nighttime. Ugh. My worst times have always been at night, whether I'm going through withdrawals or not. I've had recurring major depressive disorder for all of my adult life. Anti-depressants help a hell of a lot (zoloft and wellbutrin) but I still experience periods of deep depression which include severe insomnia and unremitting nightmares when I do actually fall asleep. One tactic I find works for me is to say "fuck it" and get up out of bed and go watch a movie or read. Reading gets me through a lot. Several other people in this forum have said that getting dvd sets of tv shows you like or want to see and immersing yourself in them has helped them get through withdrawal. I too have done that in the past and recommend it. Stuff like Weeds, Dexter, The Sopranos etc are my favorites; I guess it's the dark humor that can make me laugh no matter how shitty I feel. It's certainly waaaay better than lying in bed in the dark trying to sleep and wrestling mental demons. Also, final suggestion, don't forget to get a bit of sun every day even if you typically avoid it. It really does help.

I'm so glad that you haven't mentioned feeling suicidal for a couple of days. I hope that means those feelings have passed for the most part. If they reappear, please call your local Suicide Hotline or get your ass out the door and into the ER. Please. They will take you seriously and they will help you. Too many people in my life have gone the suicide route and they really, really didn't need to die. Things do get better, really, you just have to reach out for help. Suicide hotlines are a great resource.

Again, I am glad that the last couple days have been better and that you are feeling hope for the future. Please continue to check in here, we really do care and are here to help one another.

Take care,

~Anna


Yeah, I did go the this whole process once before and it seemed worse. At that time I had bought the full series of 6 feet under and watched that over the course of withdrawal.
BEWARE: DO NOT WATCH FULL SERIES OF SIX FEET UNDER WHILE GOING THROUGH WITHDRAWAL.

You will want to die. That shit is depressing.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Oh yeah, Six Feet Under would be bad. There's definitely shows to avoid. Like Intervention. Dumbass that I am, I watched a set of the first season of that once when I was out of pills and waiting to get more. Bad choice.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:59 pm 
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annabella65 wrote:
Oh yeah, Six Feet Under would be bad. There's definitely shows to avoid. Like Intervention. Dumbass that I am, I watched a set of the first season of that once when I was out of pills and waiting to get more. Bad choice.


Yeah, not good. Its hard though. It puts you in an emotional state. Almost anything that evokes emotion; even if its happiness, humor, or levity can bring it out. I just cried watching Scott Pilgrim vs The World. wtf.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:47 am 
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Also, don't watch Into the Wild or Benjamin Button or Bambi. I'm totally serious. I don't know if you read, but the Twilight series are fantastic and completely take you away. Also, no sad endings.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:52 am 
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Glad we could add some levity to this


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:02 am 
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Have you ever seen Flight of the Conchords? That show helped me get through my Sub withdrawal. Anything funny really helps, laughing gets the endorphins flowing almost as good as exercise.

How are you doing?

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:17 am 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Have you ever seen Flight of the Conchords? That show helped me get through my Sub withdrawal. Anything funny really helps, laughing gets the endorphins flowing almost as good as exercise.

How are you doing?


When I lived in LA Brett and Jermain used to hang out at my local bar. Really cool guys. Dig the show too.

Doing better besides no sleep and nightmares. The hardest.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:01 am 
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Gah! I am jealous that you got to hang with those guys, lucky.

The not sleeping/nightmares thing is really the worst. Lack of sleep just makes it incredibly difficult to deal with anything - there's a reason they use sleep deprivation as torture. Insomnia was the one thing I really couldn't handle when I was doing my Suboxone withdrawal.

Are you opposed to taking sleep aids? When I was detoxing, my doctor gave me clonidine, which was helpful for a lot of the sympathetic nervous system crap that happens during withdrawal and it's also somewhat sedating and can help with sleep. I found it to be a very useful comfort medication. Once I was off the Suboxone, he prescribed ambien which worked great. The first night I took it I got a solid 6 hours of sleep and felt like a new woman. He cautioned me against taking it too often, but I ended up only needing it for a very short time. I think I took 7 of the 30 pills he prescribed and by that time I was able to sleep on my own again.

I'd recommend either one of these as useful for getting through withdrawal. The clonidine is better for helping with the anxiety, goosebumps, yawning, sneezing, hot/cold flashes and is somewhat good for insomnia while ambien is really good for insomnia but doesn't do much else. Most doctors are pretty comfortable prescribing clonidine though because it's not addictive. On the over the counter front, some people report success with melatonin. I don't like it, but it might be worth a shot. It's inexpensive and basically harmless. Herbal supplements can help too: valerian and kava are both really good sedatives.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:16 am 
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Yep, insomnia sucks. Even worse (for me) is getting crap sleep filled with bad dreams. I'm with DOQ, clonidine hasn't done much for me as far as relieving insomnia/nightmares, but I have never tried clonidine in pill form (I've had the patch version called Catapres which has greatly helped with symptoms other than sleep). Once I am through the first few days of acute withdrawal, Trazodone has worked really well for my insomnia and the nightmares. Sometimes too well. Knocks my ass right out, no dreams. Waking up is a challenge and for the first couple hours after dragging my ass out of bed I feel like I've been hit by a Mack truck. Of course if I don't have to go to work that day then it isn't so much of an issue. You might want to try the traz if you haven't already.

Hope tomorrow is an even better day. Let us know how you are doing.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:24 am 
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I'm still taking one milligram but my sleep sucks. I cannot fall asleep. Annabella, I've had the same experience with the Clonidine. It has not helped me sleep that much at all. If I take more than I do to knock me out, then I'll throw up when my pressure drops. I've tried Trazodone. I didn't give it much of a chance because it gave me such a bad hangover. It seems like when your body doesn't want to sleep and you force it to, there's a price to pay....dragging the next day.

DifficultyCoping, I actually wasn't trying to lend levity. I watched those movies back to back the last time I dropped fast under the ceiling and i turned into a puddle. I was crying by the opening scene of Benjamin Button, before anything sad even happened. Do you get Netflix?

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Yeah. I gets the netflix. I know what it's like to have reactions like that to film. Aside from the fact that I have heartbreak on the mind. I've been crying quite a bit. The girl I was with, for five years I don't think we were ever apart for more than a few days, so its a completely new experience doing things by myself, much less doing THIS by myself. Music and TV set me off all day.

A new morning. Sleep was... eh. I am taking melatonin. I don't want to do sleep medicine because I don't want any chemicals in my body at all. But even the melatonin is giving me "drag-ass" in the morning. Hate it. I'm going to try to go without it tonight. Besides, I heard that regular melatonin use can really mess up your sleep cycles. A small dose is way more than your brain would ever create naturally.

I noticed anxiety is down a bit. And I'm starting to wake up with a little bit of hunger in my stomach.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Yeah, I am leery about the Melatonin too. I'm so afraid to mess anything else up!! At least it isn't Ambien or Lunesta. Those really send you through a loop when you take them more than once in a while. I take the Melatonin and then take a break from it and then take it again. You can get it in 500 microgram tabs, and when I first started taking it, it only took one of those puppies to make me sleepy. I got up to taking 6, which is 3 mg, and then quit taking it for a while. IDK....maybe you could reserve it as a 'once in a while' thing.

I am SO sorry about your relationship. Obviously, this is a very dark time for you. I wish I could give you a hug. We all know what it feels like to be dark like that. You just got a double whammy in the worst way. I know it is hard to imagine, but you will be through this and there will be someone else....BETTER! And you will look back and say "boy, that time really, really sucked, but look where I am now!" At least you you are getting this Sub crap over while you already feel bad about the relationship. You are kinda getting all the bad stuff over with at once.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:16 pm 
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I tried to kick the melatonin supplement last night. Hard night. Still waking up groggy. Better to just keep taking it for a while. As soon as I get out of bed and eat I start to feel better. I feel like I'm out on the other end of the worse part. Just this whole sleep and back pain thing is bringing me down hard. And I know thats the part that last the longest. But considering how fast I sped through the worse part, hopefully the residuals will die down with the same speed.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:42 pm 
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Dude I totally think you are at the end of the worst of the acute symptoms. You made it! Of course there's probably a mountain of crap yet to deal with but, for me at least, being able to get some sleep, eat some food and feel increasing emotional balance is HUGE! Don't give up on the exercize as it seems that really helped pull you out of the deep shit. I predict that you are going to zip through the rest of the process and that although there will be rough spots it's gonna go faster than you thought. I read one of your posts where you said you had stopped counting days. I do that too; never been much of a day counter. Easier to stay in the now.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:47 pm 
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So D.C.-- it appears that your last dose was 2 mg on May 2nd-- is that about right? From reading your posts, it looks like things peaked around May 6, at about the fourth day-- and you were at a point of doing some exercising at about the sixth day?

It is interesting-- and gratifying to many people, I'm sure-- to see that you got over the hump as quickly as you did. We often hear the nightmare complaints; the people who describe excrutiating symptoms for weeks or even months. There is so much variability with the degree of withdrawal from buprenorphine; I have had a few patients who had little or NO withdrawal at all. I have NO idea why that would happen.

Thanks for sharing your story. Everyone is looking for accurate data, and your 'real time' account has been useful for many people.

J


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:44 am 
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suboxdoc wrote:
So D.C.-- it appears that your last dose was 2 mg on May 2nd-- is that about right? From reading your posts, it looks like things peaked around May 6, at about the fourth day-- and you were at a point of doing some exercising at about the sixth day?

It is interesting-- and gratifying to many people, I'm sure-- to see that you got over the hump as quickly as you did. We often hear the nightmare complaints; the people who describe excrutiating symptoms for weeks or even months. There is so much variability with the degree of withdrawal from buprenorphine; I have had a few patients who had little or NO withdrawal at all. I have NO idea why that would happen.

Thanks for sharing your story. Everyone is looking for accurate data, and your 'real time' account has been useful for many people.

J


I know of these "no withdrawal" types. My ex-girlfriend was one. Obviously years of doing drugs, my girlfriend wasn't just sitting there eating pie. We were both users. But she thought I was crazy when I would get withdrawals. She thought it was weird. Her system was so resilient. She could party with oxy and morphine for months on end and stop suddenly with no more than sniffles.

I'm glad that my continuing story shows that it doesn't have to as intense, you just have to wait and see. But I honestly have to say that the residual effects are still paining me almost as much as the severe sickness portion of the early withdrawal. Even with my endorphin boost from exercise, and beautiful moments of clarity and happiness, I am still overcome.
I get about 3 hours of sleep at night. I fall asleep around 10:00 wake up at 11:00 fall asleep again around 6:00 and wake up maybe 7:30 or 8:00 in the morning. Hours zoning out with the TV in the background lost in a tired mind plagued with visions of my own suffering and mortality. I try to do small meditations, but they get distorted by a brain that acts like a monkey swinging from branch to branch.
Like clock work, when I wake up I weep for about 5 to 10 minutes, this happens periodically thought the day.
There is no herbal supplement nor chemical remedy that can cure a body that just refuses to sleep, at least not one that will allow you to wake feeling good.
I realize that insomnia is probably the most protracted symptom. I wish it away as fast as possible.

I am also trying the "withdrawal-ease" supplement. I'll let you know how that goes.


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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Update: Day 10. Still sleeping less than hour a night. Really horrible. I almost dont care about the pain in my knees if I can just get a good nights sleep. Back pain is intense if I stand for more than a few hours. Hopefully that goes away before I get back to work next week. But trudging through.

Side question. How long after stopping suboxone does your immune system get back into full gear. I'm a heavily tattooded kid, and I always get a piece after a major life experience. The quality of your immune system directly affects the ability to consistently feed endorphins and deal with the drawn out pain of the process. Even after my sleep cycle returns and I no longer notice symptoms, is there still a protracted below-the-surface healing period for your body?


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:41 am 
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Hey D.C. just checking in to see how you are doing. I hope that you are sleeping a little better at least and that the w/d has not gotten worse. Are you still having an appetite and hitting the gym?
I'm sorry to say that I don't have any useful input about how long it takes our full immune system to bounce back to normal. Myl thought would be that it will depend a lot on getting adequate nutrition and sleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Update
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:03 pm 
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DifficultyCoping wrote:
Update: Day 10. Still sleeping less than hour a night. Really horrible. I almost dont care about the pain in my knees if I can just get a good nights sleep. Back pain is intense if I stand for more than a few hours. Hopefully that goes away before I get back to work next week. But trudging through.

Side question. How long after stopping suboxone does your immune system get back into full gear. I'm a heavily tattooded kid, and I always get a piece after a major life experience. The quality of your immune system directly affects the ability to consistently feed endorphins and deal with the drawn out pain of the process. Even after my sleep cycle returns and I no longer notice symptoms, is there still a protracted below-the-surface healing period for your body?


Hey DC.

It's been great reading your posts, and your sense of humor even in the darkness cracked me up. Congrats on getting through the worst.

My experiences with Subox withdrawal have been similar to yours in everything but the duration. My withdrawal would kick in about day 3, peak about day 7-8-9 (those days were as bad as each other), then I'd land about day 12-13. Even when I was in an inpatient detox it was still painful. Any sleep I managed to get, usually after a load of valium and temazepam, I'd wake up in pools of sweat freezing my arse off.

I could so relate to those waking nightmares. My brain would latch on to freaky words and put them on repeat, like a broken record. These words would always be really painful, and have lots of Z's and T's and D's and S's that'd each scratch my brain in their own painful way. And yeah I found them a lot more intense than when coming off my opiate of choice. I'd also cry over anything - ads on TV, memories - and I'm not the kinda guy that cries easy. It sounds like your detox peaked and dipped early, but now you've got some lingering annoyingness, like the 2-3 months after coming off methadone.

Yeah, my immune system was pretty weak for a few months after getting clean. I'd get sick so easily, and especially since a couple of times I landed in an "institution" (not psych ward), bugs would just go around and around and I would keep getting sick.

There is a protracted process of healing. It's called PAWS - this is the biological / psychological. There's also the social, ie getting a healthy network of friends back in your life. PAWS is a combination of your brain's natural opioid system booting back up. It's a slow process - 18 months for some people - but being young and exercising, it shouldn't be that long for you. Basically, the awkwardness and the "fish out of water" feelings you get post-detox are the PAWS.

Exercise is the key man, I think. Every time I would exercise, it would bring on the intense sweating with that sour detox-sweat smell, and I just knew I was pumping out some of the dregs that were left in my system. It'll also accelerate a lot your brain's long term recovery from opiate addiction. After a month I felt totally human again physically. Mentally, I was still a fucked unit.

You need a recovery plan. I think this is the hugest thing in recovery. What do you wanna do? Study, work, start a business, learn a language? You gotta have a plan with an end goal that'll keep you busy for a couple of years, and you gotta really want it. Think of something that will keep your brain occupied and that you enjoy. You sound like a smart guy, why not study? You gotta have something to live for, you gotta value yourself and know that you have your place in society, you've just chosen not to take it for a while. But it's still there waiting.

Also I'd recommend investigating a program. Try out the self-help groups like Smart Recovery, NA, New Life, (stay away from the scientologists tho), try counselling. If you're really at a loose end you could even do long term rehab. But whatever you do, if you find one of these things is having a negative effect on your recovery, ie you leave a certain brand of meetings wanting to use more than when you arrived, then don't keep going. Different things work for different people.

Anyway, long post. Take care and good luck!

PS:

Did you know that an exercise high isn't actually endorphins? They found out that it's actually the natural cannabinoids in your brain, not the opioids. That blew me away, but it kinda made a bit of sense.


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