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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:26 pm 
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I am going to my doctor tonight for the second time and am a little nervous...I used a couple of oxy's a couple of days ago while on Subutex and don't know if I should tell him or not...and if he tests me willl it just show up anyways!?
I am on my first week of suboxone treatment and don't consider that relapsing I was just in so much pain I didn't know what else to do! So do I tell him and be honest with him and myself...I literally ate only 2 30mg oxy's in the past week (coming from a very very high dose of methadone daily VERY HIGH) and I don't know what to do seriously if someone could give me some advice before 5 o'clock I would really appreciate it I just need someone to reassure me that honesty is he best policy and that he won't leave me and kick me out of the practice.....or will he?
Help!?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Honesty is usually the best policy unless you are up against people who are out to get you. I don't know if thats the case with you or not but... remember the old saying... just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. Seriously... I've been told that oxys normally stay in your body about 72-96 hrs but don't take that to the bank. There are many sites that give info on this... here is one:

http://everything2.com/title/detection+ ... s+in+urine


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:19 pm 
Tough call Taryn! If you feel a genuine sense of trust for your doctor, I think you can tell him the truth. The thing is...I'm questioning his judgment just a little bit because he started you on Suboxone straight off high doses of Methadone. I read all of your other posts, but obviously I still don't know the whole story. Maybe you weren't completely honest with him about the Methadone in the first place. I'm not a doctor or an expert but I don't know.....it just seems like you were kind of screwed in the first place with your induction going "less than smoothly." Most of us who transition off short-acting opiates have a real wonderful experience with our Sub induction. You, on the other hand, certainly have not!
Probably, if I were you, I would tell him the truth. You were suffering horribly with pain and everything else....in hindsight now that you've been able to do a bit more research, you think you may have been in precipitated withdrawal....you were desperate....you self-medicated with a couple of oxy.....you regretted it.....you have not repeated it.....you really, really want this to work......please give me another chance to be 100% compliant with your instructions.....I will come in for a drug screen whenever you request....nothing is more important to me than my recovery... Something like that might maybe. It's the truth from what you have said.
Honestly, if he fires you because of this slip this early on....you might not want him for a doctor anyhow.
That's just my opinion. You have to do what you feel is right...whatever you feel will keep you in treatment.
Let us know how it goes!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:11 pm 
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Hi Taryn! I was going to post in your other thread but then seen this one and I wanted to post here!!

Thanks for giving us a bit more of your situation. Methadone, with its very long half-life, is very tricky to transition smoothly to bupe(Suboxone). As Setmefree said, I think your doctor might have given the Subutex a bit early considering your last dose of Methadone (whatever milligram dose that was...., thats another issue as I am sure you know!!). Once again, I am no expert on this subject, but from what I have read/heard, waiting as long as possible from the last dose of Methadone to first dose of bupe is the best way to go. I have heard of having to wait 96 hours +, just to avoid precip w/d! Does this mean that is for sure what is happening, I don't know. But from the sounds of it, your best bet is just to keep taking your prescribed dose of Suboxone as your are supposed to and avoid all full agonists at all costs! Methadone, oxy's, percs, vics, etc... Let the Methadone work its way out and allow the bupe (again, main drug in Suboxone) to 'do its thing'. I know, easier said then done. Restless legs/leg pain sucks! Look into Clonidine, try some Ibuprofen, and use the other meds the doctor gave you accordingly (again, not a doctor, just opinion).

Also, you mentioned that it might have been easier if you stopped the Methadone and went to other short acting opiate full agonists and then went to the Suboxone (bupe). Well, it probably would have been easier if you were on other opiates (opioids?) instead of the Methadone for a week or two and then went to the bupe, but since you already made it this far I really wouldn't worry about it and know that it will not be too long until you do feel normal/better. I really wish I could site this, but this is from MY memory: If you did precip w/d because of taking bupe too early and you were dependent on full agoinsts, then it should only take a few days to feel normal/better. Maybe with the Methadone it is just taking a bit longer. Hopefully it is any moment now that you will be feeling better! Again, all MY thoughts, nothing concrete to give you, sorry!

As for telling the doctor about the oxy's. I would do exactly what Setmefree suggested you do. Be honest. Let the doctor know you are really serious about recovery and just was in so much pain from possible precip. w/d from the bupe fighting the methadone that you were desperate and tried the 2 oxy's to no avail (spelling?? I suck at spelling!). I am sure you regretted it and tell him that. Let him know if you felt guilty and how you just want to be 'better/normal' again. We all know where you are coming from and it can be so hard, but with the help of others, this excellent forum, and Suboxone/support you can do it! We know you can!!

I am so sorry that you dis-like the taste of Suboxone. On the other hand, I actually 'enjoy' the taste of Suboxone! I know I have heard others who like the taste and of course others who do not like the taste as you. Don't worry, you aren't alone!

Lastly, LatheDude mentioned if you are into youtube to do a search for suboxdoc. I too find it very easy to absorb what Dr. Junig is saying in his youtube videos (and his blog/writings for that matter...). Thats a great idea to gather even more info. Also, I believe it was mentioned, but I will say again: Absorbtion is very important. Make sure you maximize you suboxone absorbtion to get the most bupe out of the pill as possible. You want to make sure you are above the bupe ceiling at all times. Click HERE and HERE to see info. on maximizing your absorbtion.

I am glad that you are finding the forum helpful. I too have found it so helpful and love reading/posting (to) it. I thank you again for sharing more of your story and hope that your appointment will go well. ACTUALLY, it is 5:00 pm EST now....hmmmm, I guess I posted this too late!!! Good luck and keep us updated please!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:54 pm 
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So here’s the deal…I went to my doctor and of course all my worrying was for nothing. I was so nervous I didn’t even make it into his office before I told him about what I had done and he kind of chuckled at my nervousness/craziness. He did take notes of the fact that I did take a couple pills but was not mad in the least! If anything he was even more supportive of me and talked me through what will happen if I choose to use and not stick to the program and he is definitely willing to work with me NOT against me. I swear he is the nicest guy/doctor I have ever gone and seen – and I have seen quite a few! He spends so much time with me and is soooo supportive and kind. I honestly feel like I wouldn’t want to use again just so that I don’t disappoint him in some way...not the only reason I don’t want to use, but you know what I mean!
I am feeling a little sluggish again tonight and agree with you guys when you say that you think I went into precipitated withdrawals…it definitely wasn’t fun or something I would EVER want to go through again. About questions of my dose of methadone I cant say that I even know what dose I was taking considering it was coming off the streets and there’s no way to tell what exactly you’re getting…that’s why I think my mood and stuff was so up and down for the past few months because their probably was a lack of consistency in what I was taking – according to my Dr’s thoughts also. Alls I do know is I love this forum and love hearing from you guys and your kind words….it means so much to me you have no idea and I couldn’t even put it into words. Just being able to come home sit my butt down and talk a bit to everyone feels great…like I got a bunch of friends I don’t really know but they know what I am going through better than anyone else I know!
I am just going to take it easy tonight and I haven’t heard of clonidine…but I have heard of klonopin and that helps a bit when it comes to the way I am feeling especially at night. I take it for my anxiety issues and it helps me and calms me quite a bit but eventually I would like to (well maybe not soon) but at some point I want to not need to rely on meds to get by all together (other than the meds I need for bipolar disorder) Man I sound fucked up haha
Anyhoo feeling happier tonight and not quite as depressed as I was feeling earlier so thank you guys for the support..seriously thank you! I’m gonna wrap it up and get myself into bed early so I can have another productive day tomorrow…methadone free! I will probably be back on tomorrow to chat but if anyone wants to send a note to say hi feel free as I will do the same. I can’t name you all but seriously all you guys have had to say has seriously helped me and made me feel better about what I am doing so thank you so much. Goodnight all :)..........

Taryn


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 Post subject: Just a Thought
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:13 am 
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Why don't more people put pictures of themselves on this site...I guess I can understand privacy and such but I wish I could actually see the people I was talking to...Just a random thought :)

Taryn

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And feel like shit the morning after
But now I feel changed around
And instead of falling down
I'm standing up the morning after"
~Elliott Smith


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:27 am 
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Hi Taryn,
glad to hear that your doctor was understanding about your little indiscretion! You say that one day you want to stop relying on meds, and that is very commendable. It's getting out of that 'reach for the pills' mentality that means we are truly on the road to recovery. The way I see it, there are 3 very important steps to follow when trying to get clean from opiates:
1. Stay away from people who are still using! This is to my mind the most important factor, much more so than any single other thing you could name. If you hang around with the same folks you scored from or got high with before, sooner or later they will offer you something or try to put you down for trying to get clean. Screw them, think about what's best for YOU.
2. Take your suboxone regularly and at the dose that suits YOU. Everyone is different, and just because Joe B. or Mary X. is on 24mg a day doesn't mean that you will respond well to the same dose. You will know when you're taking the correct amount, you will feel amazingly clear headed and 'normal'!
3. Work closely with your medical/counselling professionals and NEVER be afraid to tell them if something is not working for you or just plain ' doesn't feel right'. This is YOUR health at stake here, so make sure that everything works for YOU.

Are you seeing a common theme here? I hope so! This is all about YOU, and about breaking those old habits that were killing you. Addiction is not just physical as I'm sure you are aware, there is a HUGE mental component to this disease, something that no amount of pills or chemicals can cure by themselves. Professional counselling and support can help greatly with this. You have come to the right place by coming to this site, there is a wealth of useful info to be found on the forums, and a great deal of support and empathy from the people here too. We have all been there hun, and know where you're coming from.
Glad to hear that you look forward to methadone free days now! Isn't it great to wake up clear headed , with no worries about where you're gonna get today's hit and all that other stuff! You have been given a second chance at life, something that not everybody gets. Make the most of it!!!
Ok I'm gonna stop preaching now and just wish you all the best for your recovery. Please let us know how things progress.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:49 am 
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Hi Taryn,
Again welcome to the Forum and Congrats on getting into treatment with Suboxone. I am glad you came clean with your Dr. and the way you talk about him it sounds like you got a great one.... I think it's important to have a good "relationship" with your Dr. it just seams to make everything go smoother? It sounds like you are well on your way, I was just wondering if you are in therapy as well as the medication? I can only speak for myself when I say that Therapy helps me alot. I go 2 times a month and it helps to " clear the air" and get any questions I might have answered..... Well best of luck and continued success on your Recovery.... Please keep us posted on your progress!! 8)
Take Care!

God Bless
TW


Last edited by TWINPLY on Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:21 am 
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Taryn,

I am glad everything worked out with your sub doctor. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand being nervous about telling him about the oxy's, because I would be trying decide whether to tell the Dr. or not as well (ultimately, I think I would have told him, but how do I know?...haven't had the situation come up ...yet...and truthfully, I hope it doesn't come up because that would be hard!!). But anyways, it definitely paid off for ya!! Cool!

Some doctors out there will not understand what we are going through and treat us like 'criminals' when we don't deserve to be. But many (prob more than we actually realize), do understand what we are going through and are compasionate and will work with us in the times we need them most. They could either have a history with substance abuse (opiates, or whatever) or just have a great understanding of the epidemic of addiction and what addiction can do to us. Actually my current Suboxone doctor is a recovering addict, but not of opiates. He has been in practicing for just about 30 years. I think, for the most part, we can tell whether or not the doctor is going to judge us and penalize (sp!?) us for having 'relapsed' (or whatever) just by speaking with them and getting to know them. Sometimes, that might not be the case, but we should assume that the doctors are here to help us because for the most part they are.

As for the pictures....I thought about putting my actual picture up, but it is, for me, the privacy issues. Also, I live in a 'rural' area, where everyone knows what everyone is doing/has done. So, for now....I'm going to stay 'hidden'. lol

Take care all!!

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:54 am 
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Hey T.

Left a reply on the other thread.. then got to this one. Way to go. Honesty is the best policy.

more later... we are with you!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:53 pm 
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You guys are the best....THANK YOU! I gotta get running to class but will post when I have time later...as far as symptoms go I am doing pretty good today (slept in though) but you guys aren't kidding or weren't lieing IT DOES GET EASIER!

much love
T

_________________
"It's always been wait and see
A happy day and then you'll pay
And feel like shit the morning after
But now I feel changed around
And instead of falling down
I'm standing up the morning after"
~Elliott Smith


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:06 pm 
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i think each and every one of us had a hard time believing that the suboxone would make recovery "easier"

i know i did. i mean, how could it just magically make me feel normal again? well, it does. but it will take some time. the first week i started subs the dose wasnt lasting 24 hours and so i went up and up until it was lasting.

im now addicted to the high of life, the high of normalcy (sp?), the high of reality.

we're all here for you


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:18 pm 
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It's always a gamble when you tell someone that you're taking Suboxone. The only people who know are my wife, a friend living on the west coast, and my ex-neurologist & his staff. My wife is very supportive, as is my friend (although it's not something that usually comes up in our conversations). The nurse practitioner was/is another story.

I had been seeing the same neurologist for about eight years. I get migraines and have issues with both shoulders (chronic adhesive capsulitis) as well as cervical problems due to on the job injuries - I worked in a prison for 25+ years. Three years ago the nurse practitioner at my neurologists office suggested that I take Oxycontin (one 20mg tablet in the AM and one 20mg and 10mg tablet in the PM). I took them as perscribed for the first two years or so, but began abusing them about a year ago - taking my regular dose early, then having to buy extra from an acquaintance. At the end, there were days when I would take over 600mg. By the time I acknowledged to myself that I had to do something about my problem, I was in much too deep. I tried cold turkey twice, thinking that I could handle a week or so of being sick, then I would be ok. But we all know that after the first week it's the lingering depression (I've had problems with depression my whole life and take Wellbutrin) and lack of energy that finally break us down. I tried tapering and that didn't work at all.

Last year I made an appointment at a Sub clinic and have been going ever since. To make a long story short... the doctor at the clinic suggested that I tell my neurologist and nurse practitioner that I was in treatment. I was hesitant... first, because I know the stigma that is attached to people who suffer from dependence and addiction and I genuinely liked both of them. Secondly, I was afraid that they would no longer prescribe the Fiorinol (which I never had a problem with) that I needed for my migraine headaches. So, for 7 months I would keep my scheduled appointment, take the script for Oxycontin, and when I got home, put them in a drawer in my nightstand. On my last appointment, when the nurse practitioner was writing my scripts for the Oxycontin, I told her to stop because I hadn't been taking them. I didn't tell her that for the last six months of use I had been supplimenting them. I just said that they were no longer effective and when I tried to stop I got very sick and that I was now taking Suboxone to try to take care of the problem. Well, right away I saw a look of fear and disgust on her face. She must have said at least a half dozen times that I had signed an agreement to take them as perscribed and she wasn't liable for any of my problems. Then she said "Well, there's no reason for you to see me anymore since it's obvious I can't give you anymore Fiorinal either, so I would like you to leave." When I asked to see the doctor, she had me sit in an unlit room while she went to speak with him. She came back right away and told me that he didn't have time right now. When I asked when he would have time she said "Maybe some time next week... now I'd like you to leave, I have other patients."

Maybe I should have posted this in the "Bad experiences with pharmasists and doctors" thread, but I thought it applied here as well. Anyway, what a mistake it was to tell her. I still have those 14 prescriptions sitting in my drawer at home. My intention has been to write a letter to the doctor who refused to see me and include them in the envelope. I can only imagine what she told him, so I think including the prescriptions with the letter would lend credence to my story. I wonder how many other people will have, or have had a problem like mine at that office.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:19 pm 
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bronzebeta:

man, I know where you are coming from!!! My first opiate was over ten years ago......eventually I moved up the scales and when the first time the neurologist scripted OxyContin to me, it was a bit different but 20mg in morning, 20 mg in evening...plus 5/325 perc 3 times per day for break thru... We moved up from there of course, but at the end and after many different narcotics I was easily doing half grams + of oxycontins from legal scripts and illegal drug dealers. Sometimes even more, but I don't like to talk/think about it! I am not trying to brag at all, but just wanted to say we had that in common. My pain issues are several herniated disks lumbar region, and nasty sciatica pain (left leg). Once I knew it was time to stop, I got into a for lack of better terms shitty suboxone program (NOT suboxone that was shitty, but the 1st doctor I went to see for suboxone was shitty.....my current suboxone doctor now is awesome). I never went back to that neurologist for my back (even though I am in constant pain), which was about 10 months ago (its confusing, I know...but I am TRYING to be brief, lol.....over 8 months since starting suboxone, few months with first shitty sub doctor and like october-ish since second and current awesome sub doctor ).
What is different from us is the fact that you kept going back and saved your scripts for the narcotics (I totally understand going for your other meds that you need). I think you said 14 oxy scripts, thats crazzzy! I doubt I could do that!
As far as what that nurse did, that is BULLSHIT! That is why I am so afraid to tell my neurologist (or any doctor for that matter) anything about my addiction and suboxone if I was to go back to him. I would most definitely see your doctor with scripts in hand. You would not want to mail the scripts and have some chance that, that same nurse opens the letter and makes the scripts 'dissapear' or something like that. If you could speak to your doctor face to face, explain to him and show him (or her?) the unused scripts I think he would have a second opinion on seeing you. I am sorry that you had to have this happen! Addiction sucks!!!

I hope everything works out for you guys/gals, (taryn too!!)!!! Please keep us posted and know that we are here for anything that we can help you with! I know first hand how much support this forum has given me, and I am sure you can get the same support. I just hope that I can help someone as I have been helped with this forum by sharing my experiences. I am 'totally' not a doctor and 'totally' not an expert.....just a recovering addict thankful for Suboxone, suboxforum.com, and life in general! Take care!!!!!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Taryn,

I'd love to post my pic but I too am afraid of who would see. I work in a career where if anyone got wind I would be FIRED with a capital F for Fuck more than for Fired. (oh....and not all of us are probably as attractive as you either :-)

But I am glad your appointment went well. The people here DO understand which is the craziest experience in my whole addiction because I was a secret addict an no one understood active addiction or suboxone. So it means a tremendous amount to me that these people here understand and when in a bind....they are definitely there for you.

I hope each day gets better and I hope you stick around because in no time you will be helping the next person who walks on here with the same questions and concerns you have had. You can make a big difference for someone else.

Good luck and way to be honest with the doc!

Cherie


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:45 pm 
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<b>Taryn</b> - First, let me wish you the best of luck - which I should have done in my first post - it looks like you have your head in the right place and you're doing just fine. You have to trust someone, but after the experience I had at my neurologists, I'm much more hesitant to share what's going on in my life with anyone... whether it be a doctor, relative, co-worker, or even a friend. It's unfortunate, but that's were I'm at right now.

<b>BigRed</b> - Thank you for your understanding and support. I agree, the amount of medication we were able to consume when we were at our worse is nothing to be proud of. It's really mind boggling when I think back - that much Oxycontin could very easily be fatal today. How quickly things spiral out of control once the abuse begins.

I have thought of trying to make an appointment with that neurologist, but I'm not so sure he would even see me. I talked to my wife about it today, and she said to f___ 'em and just let it go, but it's something I think of often, and just can't seem let go of. You are right about being concerned that it never gets to the doctor - I just thought that if it was specifically addressed to him, that no one else would open it. But I agree... who knows what policy he has concerning his office mail. You know, when I look at all those scripts I do feel good about myself. Sometimes you have to prove to yourself that your serious about recovery. My wife was also prescribed Morphine (in 30mg doses) every month for her back problems, but last year I convinced her that she should tell her doctor she was all set and didn't need them anymore. She said he was extremely happy to hear her say that, as they were potentially very addictive, and she was only the second patient that he had ever prescribed them to. You know, I really thought that it was only a matter of time before she too would have had a serious problem, and I sure didn't want to see that. Plus, they were the first meds that I had supplimented my Oxycontin with, and I wasn't sure how well the Suboxone would work and if they might have been too much of a temptation for me.

On a different note... I like the Dali painting that you posted. He's been a favorite of mine since high school back in the 70s. I was lucky enought to have been voted most artistic upon graduation, and I just missed out on a scholorship to RISD. Boy, did my career ever go in a totally different (and quite insane at times) direction.

Thanks again for your support. It's a good feeling knowing that there are so many kindred spirits here.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Thanks bronzebeta!

Interestingly enough, that painting by Dali is 'Temptation'. If I remember correctly, this is referring to temptation from sex and trying to behave in that sense...to put it very simply...... (I prob should be 'confirming' this via google or something but as I said, all from memory!). MY whole thinking was I wanted help with MY temptation, or more so wanted to show that I had a temptation with what was, at the moment (and, who knows how long that 'moment' will last for, probably forever), ....opiates/opioids...pills, full agonists.........however one would like to word it. That is why I decided to put the Dali painting as my picture here in the forum. I am TRYING to behave and so far have been good since 6/20/2009 thanks to Suboxone and my support group and of course Dr. Junig, his blog and this forum!! I learned about Dali in a presentation I had to do in school way back (lol, way back as in like 10 yeas ago.......also around the time when I started taking opiates consistantly) when I was in my college class of Art Histroy 101 (I'm pretty sure it was a '101' or maybe a '151' something like that). I know, years don't seem to add up with me and some of my other posts? With out going into detail, I was going to graduate High School early (SURPRISINGLY ENOUGH!) but my schedule got all messed up and I had to take a core class 1st period 2nd semester senior year HS. Well, I could have switched it during like the 1st week of 2nd semester, but I ended up dating this girl in the one elective class that would have been dropped, and we became really close and I wanted to stay. Ok, way off track, but.....every day during 2nd semester I would leave HS and drive to the college for 2 classes. One of which was the Art Histroy, where I did the Dali presentation.

After hearing a little more, maybe your wife is correct in saying you should 'let it go'? (Not preaching, trust me!)
I still don't know the whole story, but it sounds like you would be better off finding a different doctor. I am sure you must be proud looking at the old scripts. That takes a lot of will power to have been able to save the scripts and not gotten them filled and you should be proud!! Good for you!!!!!
As for your wife and her meds, if she is not 'suffering' from the chronic pain then I think (in my personal non expert opinion) she is way better off withOUT the opiates/opioids. We don't know for sure (you of course know your wife, but who knows for sure) if she would have had a problem down the road, but if she absolutely doesn't NEED them, then good for you/her!!! 30mg morphine (assuming 'immediate release') could be VERY addicting. Plus I see your concern with the Suboxone and if you had a miss up. Your head is definitely in the right place!

Best of luck to you (and your wife!) with everything!!! You seem to be doing good (much better than while in active additction, like I am!!) and that is great!

Oh, and Taryn, so sorry for 'hijacking' your thread. PLEASE forgive me!! Take care all and best of luck as always!!!!!!

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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