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 Post subject: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Hi

I am new here. I have a question regarding tappering buprenorphin. I ve been using it for more that 5 years now (4 years of methadone before that). In last 2 months I tapperd from 12mg to 6mg without any problems. I dont know if thats a curse or a will test, but it just so happens, that I have some financial problems at the monet, so I dont have my health insurance for at least 14 yet to come (and I only have for 3 days of tablets). My question is does any one of you have any experiences if I just stop taking it and I take methadone or. some other opiate for those 7-9 days to relive body pain. I have a steady job and I cant afford to be sick. Relapsing wont be a problem in my case. I am over it... I just need my body to be ok while coming down. So is there anyone who tryed that and what dose do you think I should take to be ok.

I guess that some opiate would help me from getting sick while 7-9 days is not that long to be addicted to the other opiate yet?

thanx in advance

p.s. No doctor wont help me to fill those 14 days. They have very strict rules lately here in Eu...


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:45 am 
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I've tried stopping Subox on my own a few times over the years and it just ends up making me have to start back over at a higher dosage. It's making things take longer, a lot longer to finish this whole ordeal up. I also have financial problems and going to the doc is hard every month. Hard on me and my family. Also, it does take more than 7-9 days of pain before it stops. I've gone as much as 10 days and felt just as bad on the tenth day as the third. It seems to be different for all of us. I know money is hard to come by, but try to stay with your doc if at all possible. He or she knows what plan is best for you. My problem has been staying on my exact dosage every day. My doc has me taking my full dose in the morning and by afternoon I'm feeling yucky. I'm running out now and I'm scared to death again. But don't give up! Do whatever it takes to get this done! You can do it! Good luck in this and all parts of your life....


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:14 am 
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Thanx for answer, but I really just need info if methadone or whatever... does the trick with crisis of sub. I did manage cover 2 more days of sub, but time is running out. I appriciate good wishes and all, bud simple answer (without morality) would be something that would really help me a lot.
Believe me.. I am trying hard to sort this health insurance problem, but the thing is out of my reach - birocraties live in a different world... Personaly I dont have any wishes to change my tappering schedule, but obviously I will have to improvise.

From my experiences with tappering sub. - Third day is the one that body starts "acting" and 10th day is the one that usually makes a relief. I never had any psychical problems along - only body and I cant affor that if I want to keep my job and life style. So from there I figure that I am gonna need at least 9 days to cover.


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:17 pm 
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You can jump straight back over to methadone no prob. Its the other way from M back to sub that may cause probs with precipitated withdrawal. If you run out of sub you could take a small dose of M and see if it holds you. No more than 20mg a day.
But you will have to make sure you are in early wd before re commencing sub. The sub will push out all the M from receptors and then not be able to give full coverage as its a partial agonist. Thus you will go into full wd. Nothing will be able to be done about it.
Just make sure you feel in wd before restarting sub.
28 hrs from last M should be ok...only if not been taking more that 20mg!
You dont need to wait 3/4 days as some info on the web says.
I transitioned from 20mg M to 4mg sub when i started at 26 hrs. Was in early wd. I was shit scared about precipitated wd. It was fine. 3 years ago now.

To answer your question they way you want. Yes, you can take M whenever you are meant to have your usual dose of sub without problems. Be aware of the return to sub though. Easy done with care.


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:17 am 
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thanx you for this answer. Yes this is info I needed. Actually I dont plan to go back on sub at all since it will be out of my sistem there is no point for me. I have healthy, working life style, getting off was allways plan, it just so happens it will happen quicker. So my plan is to use methadone only for those - max. 10 days. And I dont think that I will get addicted to methadone in only 10 days, so it will really have just "healing" function.


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:42 pm 
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If doing this expect some wd. The point is for your receptors to repair you brain needs to go through some sort of wd. Either hard and fast or mild and slow. If you are going this route take the smallest amount to just take the edge of wd and taper. Millions have jumped all different ways though. Whatever works eh?
Good luck Man!


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:31 pm 
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shawn27mann74 wrote:
I've tried stopping Subox on my own a few times over the years and it just ends up making me have to start back over at a higher dosage. It's making things take longer, a lot longer to finish this whole ordeal up. I also have financial problems and going to the doc is hard every month. Hard on me and my family. Also, it does take more than 7-9 days of pain before it stops. I've gone as much as 10 days and felt just as bad on the tenth day as the third. It seems to be different for all of us. I know money is hard to come by, but try to stay with your doc if at all possible. He or she knows what plan is best for you. My problem has been staying on my exact dosage every day. My doc has me taking my full dose in the morning and by afternoon I'm feeling yucky. I'm running out now and I'm scared to death again. But don't give up! Do whatever it takes to get this done! You can do it! Good luck in this and all parts of your life....

Ya know I try to keep a positive tone when commenting on sub because it has helped me in ways but when I read posts like this is just kind of pisses me off to no end because Im in the same situation and thats EXACTLY what the manufacturer and most doctors count on. They know they have us by the throat and they know that even if we can't come up with several hundred dollars a month feasibly that if we dont want to be completely incapacitated we will "find a way" which is disgusting. Buprenorphine treatment in america is a joke when it comes to the motivations behind it, all about profit and no concern about compassion.

Im so thankful that I don't view doctors as some Deity when it comes to medical advice and ignored all advice to stay on 16mgs a day for years on end and instead I have been on less than 4mgs for the whole time and its as effective or more. Im having a rough time today so I hope this post doesnt just reek of negativity but even if it does its 100% how I feel and the only difference is maybe I could of worded it a little different and sugar coated it but I dont have it in me today so if it gets me banned for being honest so be it. Not to mention I just got a 500$ bill for a SINGLE drug test in the mail the other day that I have to go contest and now thats gonna eat a hole in my stomach from worry until I go back to my dr in a month.

I dont care even if you send it to a lab and they use a GCMS, it doesnt cost 500$ to do it. I get drug tested every time and Ive never failed once so the fact that I continue to get tested by a lab drug test really pisses me off, if its free like it has been I could care less but I will drop my treatment in a second if they try and tell me i now have to pay 500$ on top of the other close to 300$ I already have to pay a month, what regular person let alone an opiate addict can come up with 800$ cash a month to take a medicine? Sorry for the rant its just your post echoed the exact concerns Im having and the fact that this will probably never change is just really getting to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:49 pm 
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I totally get what you're saying buprecision. Treating addiction should at least be covered by insurance. I don't understand it. Even if taking the "morality" stance on drug abuse, why is lung cancer covered? They "did it to themselves" what about obesity related diabetes? Do they have to borrow money from their relatives and scrape up for cash only dr appointments? Yes, I wasted $ on pills. Doesn't mean I should jump for joy at transferring that over to the pharm company.
I am grateful for suboxone. But I will be even more grateful for more choices, more competition driving costs lower. It would be helpful also if insurance companies would pull their heads out of their asses. Sorry! This gets to me too - just wanted to support your rant with another rant!

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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Buprecision wrote:
shawn27mann74 wrote:
I've tried stopping Subox on my own a few times over the years and it just ends up making me have to start back over at a higher dosage. It's making things take longer, a lot longer to finish this whole ordeal up. I also have financial problems and going to the doc is hard every month. Hard on me and my family. Also, it does take more than 7-9 days of pain before it stops. I've gone as much as 10 days and felt just as bad on the tenth day as the third. It seems to be different for all of us. I know money is hard to come by, but try to stay with your doc if at all possible. He or she knows what plan is best for you. My problem has been staying on my exact dosage every day. My doc has me taking my full dose in the morning and by afternoon I'm feeling yucky. I'm running out now and I'm scared to death again. But don't give up! Do whatever it takes to get this done! You can do it! Good luck in this and all parts of your life....

Ya know I try to keep a positive tone when commenting on sub because it has helped me in ways but when I read posts like this is just kind of pisses me off to no end because Im in the same situation and thats EXACTLY what the manufacturer and most doctors count on. They know they have us by the throat and they know that even if we can't come up with several hundred dollars a month feasibly that if we dont want to be completely incapacitated we will "find a way" which is disgusting. Buprenorphine treatment in america is a joke when it comes to the motivations behind it, all about profit and no concern about compassion.

Im so thankful that I don't view doctors as some Deity when it comes to medical advice and ignored all advice to stay on 16mgs a day for years on end and instead I have been on less than 4mgs for the whole time and its as effective or more. Im having a rough time today so I hope this post doesnt just reek of negativity but even if it does its 100% how I feel and the only difference is maybe I could of worded it a little different and sugar coated it but I dont have it in me today so if it gets me banned for being honest so be it. Not to mention I just got a 500$ bill for a SINGLE drug test in the mail the other day that I have to go contest and now thats gonna eat a hole in my stomach from worry until I go back to my dr in a month.

I dont care even if you send it to a lab and they use a GCMS, it doesnt cost 500$ to do it. I get drug tested every time and Ive never failed once so the fact that I continue to get tested by a lab drug test really pisses me off, if its free like it has been I could care less but I will drop my treatment in a second if they try and tell me i now have to pay 500$ on top of the other close to 300$ I already have to pay a month, what regular person let alone an opiate addict can come up with 800$ cash a month to take a medicine? Sorry for the rant its just your post echoed the exact concerns Im having and the fact that this will probably never change is just really getting to me.


A rant will never get you banned here if you stay respectful to other members who have different opinions. Voicing your opinion is fine unless you start saying things like, "You're all a bunch of zombie idiots who traded one drug for another!!" That you have an opinion about suboxone doctors and RB is OK. There are some members here who believe the same things about them. Like you, they've had bad experiences with doctors who haven't been helpful at all and seem to be in it for the money only. You may have people disagree with you because they've had a different experience, but there's nothing in what you've complained about that will get you banned. In fact, this may be a good topic to start in Freestyle.

Remember, it's only when you start to insult other members or make outrageous claims about suboxone itself that you will run into trouble.

I'm really sorry you're having a hard day and I hope you feel better soon. :)

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:26 pm 
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I have a pretty good doctor when it comes down to it so my beef is not with him its just with the whole way sub treatment is structured in the US to be soon as nothing more than a for profit business. Im not even mad that insurance doesnt cover it (I dont have any ha), I can deal with paying a couple hundred bucks a month to see my doctor and to take a medicine that despite some things I don't like about it does help me in terms of cravings and keeping me "clean" but when that bill showed up it kinda was the straw that broke the camels back. Its not the first time, Ive had bills almost 800$ show up as well from this lab and it just irks me that if i had insurance they would be billing them for that cost for a single drug test, everyone knows it doesnt cost that. They make it sound like they Albert Einstein down in some laboratory with a bunch of test tubes and beakers painstakingly for hours on end manually do the drug test by hand, all they do is put the sample in the GCMS and read the results.

drug test is an instant result cup test so they know whether Im clean or not from the get go so why send it to the lab every time? You cannot quantify Bupe levels accurately with sublingual dosing, if you could everybody and their mother would be kicked out of treatment for stockpiling and taking less than Rx'd, there are to many variables involved when the BA of the indicated ROA for a medicine is so low. Thats the only reason people are on 16-32mgs of buprenorphine, if doctors prescribed bupe to be injected (which I think is ludicrous just using as an example) there would probably not be anyone on a dose over 2-4mgs because at 100% BA a 4mg dose of it would be equal to close to 16mgs under the tongue. Anyways I dont want to sound like all I'm doing is bitching, like I said I don't have any problem paying for services and medication but its just got be reasonable, Id say 200$ a month is right around what Id call "fair" but thats still a lot of money for most people who have living expenses and don't make 100s of thousands of dollars every year. Anyways I hope i dont come off as a whiner, usually Im very positive about sub but this is one area that really stirs up anger in me when I think about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:16 pm 
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You should migrate to Australia
All private clinics and pharmacies charge only around $5 a day to dispense, ie: 35 or so a week.
The government covers the cost of the medication. All totally confidential as well.
If there ever was a urine drug screen needed then this also covered by medicare (government health system)
Both for Methadone and bup. Some may ne a little more, maybe $7 a day. Drs also charge medicare so no cost to us. At least at my drs it was this way.
Sounds like a pain in the US. I feel for you guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:27 am 
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Since I started this topic I might as well report that I managed to go true Slovenian heltah ensurance birocratie (just in time that it didnt get too bed for me). I appriciate your advises and help, but its all good now and I didnt need to improvise with methadone etc... I am back on my sub tappering schedule, but it was usefull information never the less.

In Slo. we dont have to pay for any of it (nor for urin samples, nor for sub) it is all covered by basic health insurance. In my case things are a bit different thow, since I have my own firm, that means I have much higher money to pay to insurance and if I miss few days it gets canceled. And this way I found my self in mercy of birocraties.

thanx again guys & gals (if any of my kind here...)!


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:43 am 
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c1234 wrote:
You can jump straight back over to methadone no prob. Its the other way from M back to sub that may cause probs with precipitated withdrawal. If you run out of sub you could take a small dose of M and see if it holds you. No more than 20mg a day.
But you will have to make sure you are in early wd before re commencing sub. The sub will push out all the M from receptors and then not be able to give full coverage as its a partial agonist. Thus you will go into full wd. Nothing will be able to be done about it.
Just make sure you feel in wd before restarting sub.
28 hrs from last M should be ok...only if not been taking more that 20mg!
You dont need to wait 3/4 days as some info on the web says.
I transitioned from 20mg M to 4mg sub when i started at 26 hrs. Was in early wd. I was shit scared about precipitated wd. It was fine. 3 years ago now.

To answer your question they way you want. Yes, you can take M whenever you are meant to have your usual dose of sub without problems. Be aware of the return to sub though. Easy done with care.



Most doctors worth their salt won't prescribe methadone on top of bupe due to overdose risk, and the stacking effect of both drugs...


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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Hey Buprecision,

I'm so sorry you are having a tough day. I know how those huge bills in the mail can effect me, so I totally get it!

I just wanted to say, as Amy did, that you have done NOTHING wrong in your post! We all have complaints of some kind with our medical care. I have my share of them as well. Please don't be afraid to voice your opinions! If you wanna bitch, let it rip....I may just join you someday! :wink:

Q

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 Post subject: Re: Need advise urgently
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:52 am 
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haha thanks, although I was upset about the bill its more than likely going to get straightened out I just hate having to worry about and then having to contest it at my drs office. Doing better today and have been in a positive mood lately thankfully (I can be a pretty negative person if I don't try to keep it in check) and doing well so thanks for the good vibes guys, I appreciate it.


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