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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:27 am 
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subnomore wrote:
I'm a heroin addict & would rather go cold turkey from heroin than ever have to get off of suboxone again. My Dr. had told me that it was not addicting & that was a flat out lie. The sub wds lasted forever & ever & I'm talking about 6 months or so. The lead suit feeling of having no energy, couldn't even get out of bed lasted forever & ever. The chills, kicking legs, no sleep at all & felt like I was going thru ct from heroin but I was on the sub. At least with ct that last about 4-7 days. The sub wd is closer to 6 months. I know I'm repeating myself but can't get over how hard it was to finally get off the sub. The Dr. told me the sub was not addicting & I would just fly thru the heroin wds with no problem at all. He never told me about how hard & how long it would take to get off the sub. Plus he was prescribing 2 8mg per day. After I was 'hooked' & doing research online I found out that 2-4 mgs would be more than enough to help me to get off heroin and a couple weeks would
be enough too. Not the 18 months at 16 mgs per day. That is why the anger. If I get messed up with heroin again I PROMISE you I will bite the bullett go thru a few days of hard core ct rather than ever go on suboxone again. I'm am not debating by the way but am telling you my truth. Dr. should prescribe it for less than 3 weeks & at much lower dosage.



I'd like to remind everyone that even though something is non-addictive, you can still become physically dependant on it. You can have withdrawals from something and not be addicted to it.

Take it for what it is. There is no miracle cure and there is no easy way out. Recovery takes a lot of work, with or without Suboxone. A lot of you were obviously not expecting that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Thanks Rule.. I don't really get it when people try to say that you can't express a negative sub experience here.. There's no doubt that this is a pro sub forum, but there's also plenty of discussions about the cons as well.. Like you said, everyone is different, and everyone's experience is different.. There really is a way to experience the positive effects of subs while minimizing the negatives.. There's so much knowledge on this forum that if people would come on here and explain their sub experience I'm sure everyone could figure out an easier path to take.. Coming on and saying "subs are poison" or "they'll turn on you" (that's one of my favorites lol), as if it's a fact for every person, without explaining the whole situation is pointless..


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Amber,

That's a really nice post. Perfectly stated.. Nothing more to add to it


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Hello all! Believers and nonbelievers alike!

Last week a member of the forum named bunnyman posted this question: Should I start Subs again? Not on opioids currently.

Well, in a nut shell, he was still clean but still regularly suffering the extreme discomfort that is brought on by discintinuing his drug of choice despite being clean for 6 months are so. He had also been prescribed suboxone for 2 years previous of the 6 months clean date. He simply wanted to know whether he should resume his suboxone treatment even though no illicit use had occurred during those 6 months of abstinence.

I want to post here what I had to say to him. Sense a number of people seemed to identify with what I had said regarding buprenorphine's use and duration of treatment, I thought it might be helpful here as well. And sense I have 30 minutes to get to work I don't have much time to incorporate an original post on what were talking about right now till I get back.

I hope the following treaties below permits some of the naysayers the presence of mind to thoughtfully consider what it is I, and others have said to support the medications therapeutic qualities in drug replacement option.

-Entropy

My take:

Buprenorphine/Suboxone is a medication that is most affective for long term use. Albeit a life time. Research shows that once the medication is discontinued the majority of patients relapse. Now, I do not mean to sound like a jerk or unthoughtful to those that have NA centered ideologies, but wishful thinking is the bane of the addict.

Addiction is a very real condition like any other that in most cases require medical intervention. For me, the hard part does not stop with the alleviation of withdraws. What many fail to recognize is that when a person has been abusing opioids for an extended period of time then discontinues them for whatever reason, there is the onset of what is called dysphoria. it's symptoms range from a person being regularly sad, to fits of anger. And it is lasting. For me, it was and still is the primary cause of relapse. It is the true hard part that spurred me back into illicit drug use. Everyone one of us knows about withdrawals, but not as many have learned to name the monster that wrecks havoc in those trying to stay clean. Buprenorphine/Suboxone is designed to manage a chronic condition that does not, for all intents and purposes, get better with time. Yes, things change, mentality and outlook improve. But the underlining problem rests in the magnitude of the dysphoric addict who can never quite reach that state of well being.

Remember when you were a child? Everything was so simple, blissful and uncompromising. the healthy adult mind can have a similar experience, but we are sick. That is why this medicine is so helpful. It offers use a chance to have joy. Who cares whether you are clean if you feel as if you are on the precipice of despair all your waking moments, at least that is how I feel. Along with many other former addicts who did not, or still not have this med to assist them to live. As you can tell I approach the subject from a sort of philosophical aspect as well as a clinical.

But the choice is up to you! Do what you feel is in your own best interest. No dependence is better than even just one dependance. So if not taking it is what you feel is the best, I encourage that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:27 pm 
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amber4.14.11 wrote:
Everyone is different.

Many people have said this in different replies............

I am Rx'd 24mg of sub for pain and addiction.

About a month ago I went to 16.

BUT......
about 6 months ago, I had a problem with my perscription assistance, and didnt want to pay $550 if I didnt have to. So over the course of a week, i went from 24 mg to 8 mg, to 4mg for two days, then none.

8 and a half days later, I got my suboxone.
was it fun???
no.
I worked every day though, and for ME, I could compare it to a bad cold. FOR ME

I could have gone to the pharmacy and got the suboxone, if I wanted to pay almost eight bucks each.

Also, another time I was without for 5 days, and that was from 8mg, to none.

Just like others have said,
IM NOT SAYING WHAT YOU WENT THRU DIDNT HAPPEN.

Im just simply saying WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.

for me, methadone w/d was the worst ever. Worse than heroin, or oxy, or morphine, anything. FOR ME.
I tapered many times, but I could never make it past day three, and 90% of the time I didnt make it THRU day two.

Thankyou all,
for sharing your stories.
I really am sorry you had such a bad experience.

You're kind of making one of my points for me here. You were off suboxone for 8 days, another time 5 days and the WDs were only like a bad cold. Suboxone WDs are not like WDing off of opaites where the worst is over after a week. The worst comes 2-3 weeks aqfter quitting and the PAWS can last for over a year. In my own experience of course. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:49 pm 
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SubLuv wrote:
You're kind of making one of my points for me here. You were off suboxone for 8 days, another time 5 days and the WDs were only like a bad cold. Suboxone WDs are not like WDing off of opaites where the worst is over after a week. The worst comes 2-3 weeks aqfter quitting and the PAWS can last for over a year. In my own experience of course. :wink:


But keep in mind, for some the worst ISN'T over after a week... I've had MANY, MANY opiate withdrawls that were still getting worse 2-3 weeks later.. You said it perfect when you said "in my experience".. My experience is that full agonist opiate withdrawals are way worse then any sub withdrawals for the simple fact I'm able to taper with subs.. That's not something that was ever possible for me with the groovers- it always took more to keep from getting dope sick..


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:01 pm 
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I could never make it past day THREE on full opiates. I would just go to the emergency room at whatever time of night it was and get a shot of dilauded.

For me, the w/d from the sub peaked around day four.

For me, I never could stand to get to day four from opiate w/d

I dont know how for YOU w/d from suboxone was the WORST at week two, when its totally out of your system. But I would think you would have "had it whipped" by day seven

Many, many people say "paws" is much less than w/d symptoms, and more like irritating after effects of w/d

I can also honestly say Im pretty tough, becuz Ive had a total of 21 teeth pulled in the last two months or so, first 11 on the bottom (at once) and ten on the top (at once) and I took NO PAIN PILLS, only motrin/tylenol/suboxone.
suboxone does pretty much nothing for dental pain, except the ten mins after it dissolves that your mouth is numb.

I think you've made your point that sub w/d sucked for you.
But I think for MANY people, its NOTHING like full opiate w/d

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:16 am 
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Go Amber! You dentally rock!! I hear you on that. I only have four real teeth left. My dentist tried to fix my TMJ by totally redesigning my bite, so the rest of my teeth are nubs with full or partial crowns. Although I sometimes had narcotics during the time they were being worked on, I definitely didn't during one root canal when he had to shoot the nerve of the tooth with a needle full of novocaine!!! Luckily it did numb up quick. But I'm like you! Nothing at the dentist can scare me now!

Back to the subject at hand...

I would love to hear Olivia and/or Subluv talk about what dose they were on, how they tapered, what their doctors suggested that was wrong, etc. Ya know...specifics. I think both could establish some credibility if they could give us helpful information, instead of just an anti-sub agenda.

I have heard, and this is an unsubstantiated rumor so far, that there are NA people out there who are SO against sub that they will troll suboxone sites and post tons of negative garbage about sub. (I can't figure out the website where I read that, so I can't even give you the source of the rumor.) Of course, ask them to be specific about their experiences they can't, because they don't actually have experience with the drug. For the life of me, I don't know why anyone would waste their time spreading such vitriol. Maybe because they're jealous that sub users have an easier time not relapsing? I don't know. I hope it's just a rumor.

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:31 am 
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Amy,

Don't you love how they ignore me? They come on here with their "you'll never get off subs"- "just wait till you detox from subs"- "subs is the worst detox ever", etc etc, drivel.. Then when I tell them I have in fact detoxed off subs and not only was it NOT the worst detox ever it was actually pretty easy compared to a white knuckle, cold turkey detox from the roxy's they just gloss over that example like it doesn't exist...

Again, everyone's experience is different, but I think most people would agree that it's just human nature to feel that the latest detox is the worst detox ever... YEP, if you jump cold turkey from subs you will absolutely suffer a painful withdrawal.. I wouldn't know about that though because I took advantage of what subs offer that my D'sOC didn't- the ability to execute a long, slow taper...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:52 am 
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I really wish we had "like" button.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:13 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
I really wish we had "like" button.


Me too! Can we get one?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:34 pm 
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I asked Jamez and it's not something that apparently can be added very easily. Oh well. :(

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 Post subject: No NA here
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:22 pm 
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nogroovin wrote:
Amy,

Don't you love how they ignore me? They come on here with their "you'll never get off subs"- "just wait till you detox from subs"- "subs is the worst detox ever", etc etc, drivel.. Then when I tell them I have in fact detoxed off subs and not only was it NOT the worst detox ever it was actually pretty easy compared to a white knuckle, cold turkey detox from the roxy's they just gloss over that example like it doesn't exist...

Again, everyone's experience is different, but I think most people would agree that it's just human nature to feel that the latest detox is the worst detox ever... YEP, if you jump cold turkey from subs you will absolutely suffer a painful withdrawal.. I wouldn't know about that though because I took advantage of what subs offer that my D'sOC didn't- the ability to execute a long, slow taper...


I can't live on this site so if it bothers you that much don't reply to me so you won't be dissapointed.
I failed every time trying to taper off the Oxys CT. On the advice of a friend I used (7) 8 mil Sub over 10 days and jumped from there. The most severe WD's were over after 4-5 days and then I gradually felt better everyday. I relapsed a few years later with the Oxys and thats when I found the miracle drug Sub again but this time stayed on it for 2 years. I tapered all the way down to a crumb over 6 months and jumped. The WDs really started hhitting me after 1-2 weeks and then it was hell for a few months. I would start to feel better and then the anxiety would return and seemed never ending. It's been 2 years now and I feel pretty normal again (although some would beg to differ).


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 Post subject: Re: No NA here
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:07 pm 
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SubLuv wrote:

I can't live on this site so if it bothers you that much don't reply to me so you won't be dissapointed.


No need to be rude.. You had responded to other post(s) after the one I responded to yours, so it appeared you were glossing over any facts that didn't jive with what you're saying.. This isn't a particularly active site most of the time so obviously no one "lives on the site"..

That's a shame it went bad for you-but again, the last withdrawal is always the worst withdrawal.. I'm sure we can both agree on that.. Glad you're feeling better now- that's the most important thing


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 Post subject: Re: No NA here
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:50 pm 
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nogroovin wrote:
That's a shame it went bad for you-but again, the last withdrawal is always the worst withdrawal..


I kinda disagree with that.

I've done countless detoxes and three or four stood out as the nastiest... the last one wasn't that memorable at all. Accidental rapid detox off 90mg methadone, jumping off 70mg methadone, jumping off 6-8mg Suboxone. These experiences were worse than any of my heroin detoxes, which I woulda tried over 100 times.

But as we say, this is my experience. I only once tapered off Subutex and got down to 1mg before jumping, and at the time (only 1-2 years opioid using experience) that was the most difficult withdrawals I'd experienced. Prior to going on Sub I probably wasn't "dependent" on opioids though.

My experience with opioid detox is pretty much isolated to jumping off high doses. And in terms of difficulty (considering duration and intensity) I'd say for me methadone worst, buprenorphine second, heroin / morphine third.

And this is coming from someone who has no vested interest or want to whinge or complain about how bad Sub is. Just calling it how I experienced it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:31 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
I feel like I need to warn everyone about this drug. For 6 months I felt brilliant, like I finally had my life under control and I loved Suboxone.

Then one afternoon I got home, my side gate was open and my dog was gone.

DO NOT TAKE THIS DRUG. SUBOXONE WILL KIDNAP YOUR DOG.

I've spoken to people all over the internet forums and someone told me SUBOXONE SOLD MY DOG TO THE DIM SIM SHOP so DO NOT TAKE SUBOXONE.


I love it!! Wow, it's been quite a while since stepping-in to the forum, and I forgot about all the fireworks and hotheads.
I always got a kick out of how expressive and "black and white" the people can be who have had negative experiences with Suboxone.

Just for a little perspective, I'm rounding-out about seven years now on sub maintenance. Aside from the fact that I will always have to deal with the constipation and keeping the bowels taken care of, side effects are really none. I have noticed that since being on suboxone, it's a bit harder to keep the weight on. I went from about 175 several years back, and now have remained around 150.

But the most important points that I always like to mention when it comes to my case, is that I was really one of those hopeless cases that had been in and out of rehabs, and had relapsed so many times I could never hope to remember them all. I was literally on the verge of loosing everything, and much was already gone. In the seven years since...... A happy marriage like I never imagined. Three beautiful children. I prospering self-started business that is generating an income that I could have never dreamed-of and an overall level of success, happiness, and fulfillment that I never thought possible in my life.

I should also mention that (as a former nurse), I make no bones about the fact that I am dependent on a medication that I"m addicted to. I understand the physiology.... understand what would happen if I quit.... but honestly, why go there....
It works for me..... It's proven itself year after year...... I don't walk around in a fog.... I'm not "High" day to day. Quite the opposite actually. I've found that being CEO/president of a growing company that now employs over 70 soles to be very demanding and something that would never tolerate my being anything but stone cold sober each day...

Yep, I came close to giving my life up for this whole opiate addiction thing, and somehow life gave me a second chance...
and at 40 something, I have all but given up the thoughts of shame about still being dependent on a medication or the funny elusion of my ever "weaning off" this and going back to being a "normy".. Nope, I know full well my brain is not normal. Actually there has been quite a lot of research into opiates ability to cure depression in certain individuals, and that many opiate addicts may be a subset of that group who are unconsciously drawn to the opiates because they fill a void and imbalance that otherwise leaves them completely out of balanced and clinically "sick"..

I don't know how well I fall into that group, but I'm here to tell you that there are a large group of us out there that this med works for and sub maintenance (lifetime maintenance) is a very real life-giving, life-saving reality for many of us who would otherwise be dead, in jail, or sitting in a ditch somewhere waiting for that next fix. Instead, we are out there contributing to society in so many positive ways. We don't use this as a substitute to get high... this is a life saving medication that keeps us from the endless cycle of addiction and the hopeless reality of that life. Sure, I could spend my time being jealous of those that can finally quit it all and lead a normal life "forever", but I'm long-since done fooling myself. This med works, and it works like a miracle for me. After seven years, my medical mind has trouble believing that the medication will someday just "up" and stop working, but I guess anything is possible, and if that day comes then I will back to square one....

But until then, Thank you suboxone, thank you Sub docs out there, and thank you God, for giving this here person that one last chance to put together a meaningful life filled with joy, happiness, love, and productivity!!!! All things that had been so hopelessly lost for all those years prior...

Thanks for reading you guys, and my prayer is for similar positive outcome for every one of you that struggle with this type of addiction, regardless of what road that outcome necessitates. Do what you need to do to stay off the drugs that are going to destroy your life. If the side effects of subs are unbearable, find something , anything to keep you clean. Yes, I hear them in the background.... "but you are not clean" and to them I reply, spend a day with me.... talk to my wife, my kids, my business associates... then make a judgment as to my sobriety...


Melsailsnorth


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:02 am 
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What a wonderful and uplifting story! I'm so glad that your life has turned around so dramatically since starting on sub. You should be the poster boy for this drug!

Congratulations!

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:18 pm 
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melsailsnorth wrote:
tearj3rker wrote:
I feel like I need to warn everyone about this drug. For 6 months I felt brilliant, like I finally had my life under control and I loved Suboxone.

Then one afternoon I got home, my side gate was open and my dog was gone.

DO NOT TAKE THIS DRUG. SUBOXONE WILL KIDNAP YOUR DOG.

I've spoken to people all over the internet forums and someone told me SUBOXONE SOLD MY DOG TO THE DIM SIM SHOP so DO NOT TAKE SUBOXONE.


I love it!! Wow, it's been quite a while since stepping-in to the forum, and I forgot about all the fireworks and hotheads.
I always got a kick out of how expressive and "black and white" the people can be who have had negative experiences with Suboxone.

Just for a little perspective, I'm rounding-out about seven years now on sub maintenance. Aside from the fact that I will always have to deal with the constipation and keeping the bowels taken care of, side effects are really none. I have noticed that since being on suboxone, it's a bit harder to keep the weight on. I went from about 175 several years back, and now have remained around 150.

But the most important points that I always like to mention when it comes to my case, is that I was really one of those hopeless cases that had been in and out of rehabs, and had relapsed so many times I could never hope to remember them all. I was literally on the verge of loosing everything, and much was already gone. In the seven years since...... A happy marriage like I never imagined. Three beautiful children. I prospering self-started business that is generating an income that I could have never dreamed-of and an overall level of success, happiness, and fulfillment that I never thought possible in my life.

I should also mention that (as a former nurse), I make no bones about the fact that I am dependent on a medication that I"m addicted to. I understand the physiology.... understand what would happen if I quit.... but honestly, why go there....
It works for me..... It's proven itself year after year...... I don't walk around in a fog.... I'm not "High" day to day. Quite the opposite actually. I've found that being CEO/president of a growing company that now employs over 70 soles to be very demanding and something that would never tolerate my being anything but stone cold sober each day...

Yep, I came close to giving my life up for this whole opiate addiction thing, and somehow life gave me a second chance...
and at 40 something, I have all but given up the thoughts of shame about still being dependent on a medication or the funny elusion of my ever "weaning off" this and going back to being a "normy".. Nope, I know full well my brain is not normal. Actually there has been quite a lot of research into opiates ability to cure depression in certain individuals, and that many opiate addicts may be a subset of that group who are unconsciously drawn to the opiates because they fill a void and imbalance that otherwise leaves them completely out of balanced and clinically "sick"..

I don't know how well I fall into that group, but I'm here to tell you that there are a large group of us out there that this med works for and sub maintenance (lifetime maintenance) is a very real life-giving, life-saving reality for many of us who would otherwise be dead, in jail, or sitting in a ditch somewhere waiting for that next fix. Instead, we are out there contributing to society in so many positive ways. We don't use this as a substitute to get high... this is a life saving medication that keeps us from the endless cycle of addiction and the hopeless reality of that life. Sure, I could spend my time being jealous of those that can finally quit it all and lead a normal life "forever", but I'm long-since done fooling myself. This med works, and it works like a miracle for me. After seven years, my medical mind has trouble believing that the medication will someday just "up" and stop working, but I guess anything is possible, and if that day comes then I will back to square one....

But until then, Thank you suboxone, thank you Sub docs out there, and thank you God, for giving this here person that one last chance to put together a meaningful life filled with joy, happiness, love, and productivity!!!! All things that had been so hopelessly lost for all those years prior...

Thanks for reading you guys, and my prayer is for similar positive outcome for every one of you that struggle with this type of addiction, regardless of what road that outcome necessitates. Do what you need to do to stay off the drugs that are going to destroy your life. If the side effects of subs are unbearable, find something , anything to keep you clean. Yes, I hear them in the background.... "but you are not clean" and to them I reply, spend a day with me.... talk to my wife, my kids, my business associates... then make a judgment as to my sobriety...


Melsailsnorth


If your story is true, and you're not just pushing Sub because you work for Reckitt, you're one in a million buddy. A lot of people are making a lot of money on this poison and they prey on sites like this one with their bullshit sucess stories. Believe what you will and good luck !


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Nope, usually when someone gets on here just to lie or stir up trouble they leave much shorter, less detailed posts, like others I've seen. :roll:

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:51 pm 
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i can see where others will hate soboxone'. by not living a full battering life or it not working well for them. at time's i think subs are not going to last and things are going to get worse on them and this has been going on for the 2 years of subs and i'm
still on it. but one little thing'. why do i have more in life now wile in subs. this horrible drug stop't me from being that sad drunk binge drinker and help my mood witch my family and i said would never ever happen and i would die like that.
well glory ha-- i am am not like that now for 2 years. i would be that sad person getting drunk 2-3 days per week not noing where and how to get home and no one to help' but suboxone did it with Gods help.

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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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