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 Post subject: naloxone
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:59 pm 
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It makes no sense to me that naloxone would have no effect on the opiate or physiological effect of suboxone; else why would the "clean" buprenorphine cost so much more? Can someone explain this?

I don't think it's my imagination to say that naloxone gives me headaches, causes depression, and makes me irritable, having tried both with and without naloxone.


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 Post subject: "clean" buprenorphine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:37 am 
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I didn't know the "clean" buprenorphine did cost so much more?

I also wonder how the naloxone affects us... I believe it has more side effects on some of us more than others. It's too bad most dr's won't give us a choice on taking bupe with or without the naloxone.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:24 am 
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Hi,
The worse way to get sick is to eat some suboxone
and then do opiates right after , you get violently ill.
Otherwise it will not gives side effects or any other
problems.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:34 pm 
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Where are you getting your information from chrisssteeven? Was this personal experience? While you certainly MAY get very sick if you are dependant on a large amount of opiates and THEN take Suboxone, there are no reports or evidence that if you are on Suboxone and then take opiates that you will get sick. When on Suboxone, taking opiates, even in large quantities, will not produce much if any effect as the Suboxone will "block" the actual opiates from working. Your statement seems to indicate the opposite. Can you elaborate on how you came to this conclusion?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:24 am 
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Oh, I'm pretty damn sure that Naloxone crap does a LOT more than they "say". What I don't understand is why they force EVERYONE to use the dirty sub, (with naloxone)if the person doesn't have any history or NEED to shoot up. I mean, I'd *never* do that, I can't imagine how scary it would be to do anything like that...anyways, I get headaches irritability and a bunch of other stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Putting Naloxone in the Suboxone pills was a political decision meant to decrease fears about diversion.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:47 am 
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I concur, I am past my 2nd week of the first time being on, as you said the "clean"
buprenorphine. I also was always irritable, depressed, pissed off, unable to think
clearly. Now that I have had the chance to compare the effects of both on myself
I know that the naloxone is absorbed and counteracts the whole point of the med
IMO,despite what they say. Always question authority. Never just swallow what
they feed you.

As far as "inductions" and taking other pain meds while on Sub-X , I think that
they tell you about that just to scare you into... something. For me, if I were
to take 30mg of hydrocodone right NOW, it would do nothing but make me
more constipated. On the opposite end of the spectrum, unless you are on
a LARGE dose of a long-acting opiate/oid such as Methadone or have an IV
habit,taking a suboxone will not put you into withdrawal- or it won't me anyway
but I am not and never will be and IV user.

I remember the last rehab I was in all they talked about was how they didn't want to make me
really sick by giving me the Sub. at the wrong time. I knew they were full
of shit but the patient is certainly not the boss in a rehab setting. I remember
they would evaluate patients every day. They would Check pupil size, BP, pulse, shakiness
of hands et cetera then write the scores down on a sheet and then call the doc to "see if you
are ready to be "inducted" ( I think that is such a stupid fucking term now that
I know these things) I remember I went 4 days of going through this stupid evaluation system
(probably invented by the DEA and Reckitt , probably to increase profit margins
or some such crap) and I had to practically threaten to not pay them and leave
before they would give me the Sub. These asses were convinced I just "wanted"
the Sub. , didn't need it because my bp and whatever other factors were on their
eval. test didn't match their model of "proper withdrawal symptoms" to be on it
and let me tell you I was DYING. It gets me pissed just to remember it.

As I said in a previous post, there is nothing more frustrating than working
with mental health "professionals" ( moderate drinkers [ if at all ] who are
just "going by the book" and taking whatever the Pharm. company tells them
without maybe thinking for themselves or listening to the patients) who don't
know what the hell they are doing or talking about.

When they finally did give me Sub it was a HELLISH 10 day taper which
was eFFing ridiculous ON TOP of taking me off of benzodiazepines which I have
taken since '96 for PTSD. I was so fucking shaky after meds were D/C'd
I could not hold a 2 second thought, could not sleep, or eat, or pay attention
in group.

Now had they stretched the taper for 20 days and were a bit slower with it
I may not have had to walk out. That was the worst Waste of $6,000 to
go to rehab and go through all of that. I was so sick the whole time
I could not even begin to be interested in making friends with the other
"clients" which developed into a very bad bullying situation with
everyone vs. me. I just wanted to be left alone. No, they took offense
at my social apathy and I was forced to walk out a week early due to
all this. I can't blame them though. I got my own body in the wreck it
was in. I have to say that so I don't begin to b.s. myself.

off to bed. When I start sharing here on this board one paragraph
sometimes turns into 20.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:45 pm 
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anginapain wrote:
but I am not and never will be and IV user.


I remember saying that many times. I have since learned to never say "never" :wink:

anginapain wrote:
I remember the last rehab I was in all they talked about was how they didn't want to make me
really sick by giving me the Sub. at the wrong time. I knew they were full
of shit but the patient is certainly not the boss in a rehab setting.

Actually, if you are administered suboxone when you are not in withdrawal from full agonist opiates, you WILL be immediately thrown into precipitated withdrawal. This is a fact on par with other facts such as water being wet, or sand being dry.

anginapain wrote:
I remember they would evaluate patients every day. They would Check pupil size, BP, pulse, shakiness
of hands et cetera then write the scores down on a sheet and then call the doc to "see if you
are ready to be "inducted" ( I think that is such a stupid fucking term now that
I know these things) I remember I went 4 days of going through this stupid evaluation system
(probably invented by the DEA and Reckitt , probably to increase profit margins
or some such crap) and I had to practically threaten to not pay them and leave
before they would give me the Sub. These asses were convinced I just "wanted"
the Sub. , didn't need it because my bp and whatever other factors were on their
eval. test didn't match their model of "proper withdrawal symptoms" to be on it
and let me tell you I was DYING. It gets me pissed just to remember it.

This doesn't make sense. You are alleging that the 4 days of evaluation, which delayed your induction onto suboxone therapy is a system that was invented by the DEA and Rekitt to increase profit margins? So, they DELAY getting you on a drug to INCREASE profit? I'm sorry you suffered, but, I think your anger may be clouding your judgment here a bit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:58 pm 
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No, I am sure more went into it than that.

"Actually, if you are administered suboxone when you are not in withdrawal from full agonist opiates, you WILL be immediately thrown into precipitated withdrawal. This is a fact on par with other facts such as water being wet, or sand being dry."

As I stated in a previous post. The very first time I was given suboxone, I had 40mg of hydrocodone early that morning.
I took my first does at about 2 that afternoon. No precipitated withdrawal. I immediately took a very comfortable nap.
Am I the only exception? Have you seen Suboxone put people into pre. withdrawal or have you had that experience yourself?

It really does not matter on the whole, as long as I can continue to stay clean I see that talking shop about my bupe experiences
and relating some of my personal beliefs about the system which I have been wrung trough too much,is not a thing I should continue doing.

I need to work on myself , my anger, and my ego. Yes that rant I left does sound
a bit anger driven and in hindsight I would not have posted it. But I stick with the belief that the P.W. thing is variable
depending on your tolerance and what drug(s) you were using. I do believe ( I don't know or care who's behind it) that some M.H
professionals know little about addiction and how Suboxone will effect each individual patient.I will say no more as I am not here to argue.
I am sorry about the context of my above post. I will learn from this.

Good luck to all of you


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Precipitated withdrawals are not a myth. Perhaps your case IS the exception, but I know people who HAVE experienced it. Maybe you are simply a fast metabolizer, but your unique experience, I assure you, does not generalize to others. Precipitated withdrawals are very real.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:39 pm 
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anginapain wrote:
As I stated in a previous post. The very first time I was given suboxone, I had 40mg of hydrocodone early that morning.
I took my first does at about 2 that afternoon. No precipitated withdrawal. I immediately took a very comfortable nap.
Am I the only exception? Have you seen Suboxone put people into pre. withdrawal or have you had that experience yourself?


Nope, I have not, but I've read many, many accounts of it. Obviously, everyone is different, and there are going to be unique cases.

anginapain wrote:
It really does not matter on the whole, as long as I can continue to stay clean I see that talking shop about my bupe experiences
and relating some of my personal beliefs about the system which I have been wrung trough too much,is not a thing I should continue doing.

Why not? We're just talking, nothing more. Your experiences are valid.

anginapain wrote:
I need to work on myself , my anger, and my ego. Yes that rant I left does sound
a bit anger driven and in hindsight I would not have posted it.

Eh, that's ok, if you're angry, you're angry, there's nothing wrong with venting a little bit once in a while, no harm done.

anginapain wrote:
But I stick with the belief that the P.W. thing is variable
depending on your tolerance and what drug(s) you were using. I do believe ( I don't know or care who's behind it) that some M.H
professionals know little about addiction and how Suboxone will effect each individual patient.I will say no more as I am not here to argue.

Okey Dokey :D

anginapain wrote:
I am sorry about the context of my above post. I will learn from this.

Good luck to all of you

No problem at all! As I already wrote, if you're angry, you're angry. Talk about it, we DO understand. I've been pissed off and the whole damned planet for about 30 years now, so you're not alone :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:51 pm 
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I do have to ask however...................why is it that when you go off sub to get surgery, and you take pain pills for your surgery, you can pretty much turn right back around within 6 hours of taking a percocet, take a suboxone and not get withdrawal?

I am DAMN positive that had I not been in withdrawal when I started sub, that the 280mg of oxycontin I was on daily would have caused precipitated withdrawal. But why is it that the above scenario does not? I have done this 3 times now and each time....no withdrawal.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:40 pm 
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It's funny to me when I read that opiates will not work when you are on suboxone.
Before going to a clinic for help, I tried suboxone on my own twice. Both times I took it after 19 hours of shooting h. I was well into WD. However I began to feel much sicker soon after the suboxone , so I figured i took the suboxone too soon...somehow. The second time I even took more suboxone and waited 3 hours. I was really sick. So....I shot up a small aount of h, felt the normal rush, and felt better. I know that some things are in my head. BUT I know that i had physical symptoms too.

Then the 3rd time - this time - I was so afraid the suboxone wouldnt work. I can tell you that even though i had a kidney infection the 1st day, I started feeling worse again after taking the suboxone. This time i had waited about 24 hours and very much into WD. So I dont know if my body is different and I dont really think that after 2 weeks of being on suboxone that I would feel anything if i shot up but i know i did after taking sub those 2 other times. The 3rd time i just suffered through it for a day. Maybe my tolerence was higher than i thought but i take 24mg sub daily...and that 2nd time i tried to switch i took FOUR 8mg pills....and still felt the h!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:43 pm 
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and i hope someone doesnt read that and think I am saying you can use opiates while on suboxone. I was just saying that from experience it worked for me after going in to precipitated WD's.

I would expect that after suboxone is really in your system that no, opiates will not work. And I am sure enough people have tried and found it is a waste.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:36 am 
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Miss H - I would say you didn't have enough sub in your system, that's why you felt the heroin. Just my opinion.

As for needing pain meds while on subs and then going back on sub afterward without needing to be in w/d...it's my understanding that it depends on how long that person is on the full agonists. If they're on them for say 3+ weeks, then I believe they have to be in w/d and go thru another regular induction.

Just my two cents.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:44 am 
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missH - I think it takes suboxone a while to block all the receptors and I have heard something about the full agonist such as oxycontin or heroin and a partial agonist such as sub competing for receptor cites. I could be OH SO WRONG but I wonder if because you had been on heroin long enough, that even though you hadn't taken it in a while, it was still attached to most of your receptors and then when you took the sub and didn't feel well you went into some precipitated withdrawal, but when you took the H again it was still able to attach to your receptors which is why it worked. I think it takes a few days to build up enough suboxone to block the receptors. I think when you first take sub, you A) don't usually hold it in your mouth long enough and B) don't take enough of it until a few days have gone by

I have heard others mention feeling worse after taking suboxone. Usually they are people who were on methadone or heroin. Usually, if they hang in there a week or so, it goes away and they feel fine.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Suboxone is 100% effective in blocking other opiates from working if you are on a
high enough dose ie. 8mg two times per day or more. If you go under that you
do risk being able to "get off" on other opiates.

Today is pay day for me and I had an inkling that the neighborhood pill pusher
would show up. He did, 30 seconds after I came out the door to get my mail there
he was. "hey man where you been??" He had some pills for sale, I interrupted him before
he could say too much and told him I didn't want anything. It felt good.
I have to say though, had I not been on Sub. and knew that I could feel
whatever it was he had, the outcome probably would have been different.

I still don't understand how anyone can sell their prescriptions. It's such a taboo
to me because those are the people whom the police target.
I can't even begin to understand, other than those who divert must need "other
things" I had my whole script of Suboxone stolen 5 or so years ago, that's
the only way anyone's gonna get anything from me. Now I keep it locked up
Sad world.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:51 pm 
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You don't have to be on 16 mg or more in order for sub to block other opiates, in my opinion. The ceiling is right around 4 mg and as long as the person has been on it for more than several days, the opiate will most likely be blocked. I've known people who relapsed on 6 mg and still what they took had no effect on them. 16 is WAY above the ceiling.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Let me take a crack at this and see if I can help make sense of it.

To begin, Suboxone will work on opiate receptors in many of the same ways that other opiates will. One of the things that make Suboxone or Bup different is at a certain level (many people say 4 mg) it will run out of gas or hit a ceiling. True opiates do not do this. Taking more oxycodone will give you increased effect. The more you take - the more you feel. Because of tolerance, true opiates will become less effective and take larger amounts to increase the effect but that effect will always continue to increase with the more that is taken. That is not the case with Sub. Once you hit the "ceiling" you can take a gallon more of Suboxone and it will not have any effect and won't even stop you from breathing. Take a gallon of Oxy and it will stop your breathing. So that is one of the main differences.

So let's put it on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being a very low amount of opiate effect and 10 being extreemly high. Let's say that Suboxone stops getting any stronger at about a "3". By stops, I mean that taking a "6" or even a "10" provides no difference in effect or response than the 3 does. It is done at 3. That is why many people report taking 24 mg is no different than taking 16 mg (or even less). Once it is "done" it is "done". Taking any more will not do anything. May people report that taking 24 mg and taking 12 mg made them feel the same way. In other words, the extra 12 mg was wasted. At this point, let me add that if the "effect" you are after is pain control, what I am saying will change. I am talking purely about addiction control - not pain.

Let's see if I can explain the withdrawal issue. To start with Sub is the biggest and badest opiate when it comes to connecting to your opiate receptors. It does not matter if Oxycodone is sitting on your opiate receptors when you take Sub. The Suboxone will have the ability to throw the Oxy right off of your receptor. It is very strong at attaching. However, as stated above, it only can work at a "3" (for our example). So if the amount of oxy that you had in your system was at an "8" (for example) taking the sub will remove (or block) the Oxy from the receptor and replace it with Sub. Again, if the Oxy was at a level or strength of "8" on our 1-10 scale, it will be replaced by the "3" of Sub. Your body is used to an 8. Anything less than an 8 throws you into withdrawal. So if this were a volume control - as on your stereo system - you have turned down the volume (the drug's effect) from 8 to 3 within a few minutes. Again, your body needs that "8" but the best the Sub can do is a "3". If you stopped taking Oxy, it would slowly fall from the 8 to a 3 over many, many hours. You would slowly start to feel worse and worse. When you take sub, you go from an 8 to a 3 in a matter of minutes. That is why/how you are "slammed" into withdrawal.

The difference between many people is what number on the 1-10 scale is your body and brain expecting or needing to feel "normal". Clearly, the more drugs and stronger drugs you have been taking prior to Suboxone, the larger the amount of difference. This is why heavy users or users of long acting opiates (like methadone) have a harder time getting on Sub. Again, your body is used to, is expecting, and is needing an "8" amount of drug and Suboxone can only provide the 3. So until your body readjusts to only needing a "3" you feel pretty shitty. This can sometimes take weeks. Those who let the amount of opiates in the body drop to say a "1" will feel better when the level "3" of Suboxone is taken. In many ways, it is all relative. You feel the abrupt change.

The question was also asked well then why after you have surgery or dental work done and take oxy or Vicodin or something for the pain are you able to go back to Suboxone without having to go back into withdrawal? It again has to do with our 1 - 10 scale. It is likely that the amount of Oxy you take for the surgery will not be at an 8 or 9 or a 10. It will much more likely be at a 4 or a 5 perhaps at a 6. Your tolerance on Sub has brought you back to a lower level for "normal". Taking 5 or 10 mg of Oxy is not that much higher or stronger than taking 16 mg of Sub. So while you might feel a small amount of withdrawal, you are actually much closer to your "normal" opiate level and do not need the same level of induction as when you started. In other words, the amount of change after taking percocet for pain after surgery and snorting 160mg of Oxy while in full-blown drug addiction is much difference. Again, the 160 oxy snort is more like a 9 on our scale and the one or two percocet are like a 4 or perhaps 5.

I hope that makes a little bit of sense. Again, when we are abusing opiates, we are high on that 1 to 10 scale. When we are on Suboxone we are much lower and unless we go back to the high end of the using scale again, we can pretty much go on and off Sub without too much trouble.

While it very much all has to do with the type and amount of opiates you have been taking, it is less variable from person to person. Yes, there are always out-lyres or those you fall off the charts for what is "normal" However, for the most part, the majority of us are all the same - wheter we like to admit it or not. The majority of us will hit the Suboxone ceiling at about 4 mg. The closer we are to the maximum effect that Suboxone can provide when we start Sub, the easier our induction will be.

Again, that's my shot at making sense of this for everyone. As always, questions are welcome. If there is something that you would like me to try to make more clear, please ask!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:10 pm 
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I want to thank you, don, for taking the time to go over the subject in such detail. I think you explained it well and hopefully your explanation will help others. THANKS!

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