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Suboxone or Subutex, what is better?
Suboxone 30%  30%  [ 33 ]
Subutex 70%  70%  [ 77 ]
Total votes : 110
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 Post subject: Naloxone sucks
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:53 pm 
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Naloxone is a ingredient in Suboxone to prevent people from shooting it up.
Naloxone stopes endorphins from producing naturally in the brain
or from activity's like eating, exercise,sex,etc.
Suboxone helps my withdraw a lot.
But Suboxone gives me a bad mood.
Ive been in this mess for six years. (oxy, sub, perks etc.)
And doing hard research the whole time.
But I always have a open mind. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:51 am 
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maybe it isnt the suboxone putting you in a bad mood- if your taking all this stuff at the same time, even if it isnt putting you in actuall withdrawal- the suboxone is probably doing what its supposed to do which is fight the other drugs running around in your brain. try JUST taking the subs for a while- like a month and see how you feel. you may also need something to go with your suboxone like a anti depresant or anxiety medication, but you cant do that if your still taking all these other things. Be honest with yourself and your doctor about your feelings. thats about the best advice I can give. naloxone is (while the addict in us may not want to agree) a god send. get serious about being really "clean" and being just on suboxone without the other drugs is something you will be able to feel really good about!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Naloxone remains an inactive substance when Suboxone is taken sublingually or even snorted. It is used as a deterent against having people shoot it up and even then, the naloxone in Suboxone remains inactive. It was a scare tactic by RB to discourage abuse and encourage the FDA to allow suboxone to be prescribed in an office setting. So basically it is a placebo effect for the FDA and DEA. It doesn't do anything. Completely inactive. Although some who are sensitive to it may get a headache. If it causes a headache, switch to Subutex. Many people think it's the naloxone that causes precipitated withdrawal. It's actually the properties of an agonist/antagonist that is Suboxone.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:18 pm 
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StaffWriter wrote:
Naloxone remains an inactive substance when Suboxone is taken sublingually or even snorted. It is used as a deterent against having people shoot it up and even then, the naloxone in Suboxone remains inactive. It was a scare tactic by RB to discourage abuse and encourage the FDA to allow suboxone to be prescribed in an office setting. So basically it is a placebo effect for the FDA and DEA. It doesn't do anything. Completely inactive. Although some who are sensitive to it may get a headache. If it causes a headache, switch to Subutex. Many people think it's the naloxone that causes precipitated withdrawal. It's actually the properties of an agonist/antagonist that is Suboxone.

Good Info!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:09 am 
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I agree that it is inactive. Thats what I always thought. What is this I hear that it blocks natural endorphines? Is that true or is that person confused? I still feel good after a nice meal!!! :) I could not find anything like that online.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:42 pm 
No naloxone is absorbed into the body from using Suboxone sublingually and/or swallowing saliva with buprenorphine and naloxone in it. Here's why:

This is a quote from Suboxdoc's posted answer in the thread "Doc swiched me from Suboxone to Subutex" in the forum topic room "Dosing Discussion":

"We also know what happens when a person takes Suboxone vs. Subutex. Buprenorphine is very lipophylic i.e. dissolvable in oil vs. water. It passes easily through lipid membranes (cell membranes are lipids, and so oil-soluble drugs pass through them more quickly than water-soluble drugs). This phenomenon is why injected fentanyl has an effect in about 20 seconds, whereas morphine has an onset time fo 10 minutes evern after IV injection.

On the other hand, naloxone is 'hydrophylic', or water soluble. It does not pass through mucous membranes, instead going down the esophagus and being absorbed in the first part of the small intestine, the duodenum. The naloxone is take to the liever where it is almost entirely destroyed by something called 'first pass metabolism;' the liver has the capacity to easily destroy all of the naloxone that reaches it, so that no naloxone makes it out the other side, to the blood leaving the liver.

When I was an anesthesiologist, it was fairly common to inject naloxone intravenously. If a patient had a narcotic-based anesthetic, sometimes a tiny sprinkle of naloxone was needed to get the person breathing again at the end of the case. There were a couple rists to giving even small doses of IV naloxone; one was that even a small IV dose could precipitate pulmonary edema by effects on pressures in the pulmonary venous circulation. Too much naloxone could result in the patient awakening in pain. Finally, naloxone is a very short-acting medication, so there was risk of 'renarcotization', where the naloxone got the person breathing, but then wore off as you waled the patient to the ICU or recovery room, causing the patient to stop breathing. Gosh, I sometimes miss those days!

The primarly point of relevance here is that naloxone is a very short-acting drug. It lasted about 15-20 minutes in small doses-- and the doses in Suboxone are also small doses. It wears off by being metabolized by the liver, and also by 'redistributing' throughout the body and becoming very diluted in the bloodstream. I also (ick) injected naloxone by accident into myself during a desperate weekend search for narcotics-- so desperate that I injected the contents of an unlabelled syringe that tasted like an opiate (I would taste the things I found to try to avoid dying of an injection of a paralyzing agent-- pretty dumb stuff).

Suboxone and Subutex are equal when taken orally. The naloxone is not going to be absorbed, because the lipid nature of cell membranes is universal. So everyone who takes Suboxone ends up swallowing naloxone, and almost everyone gets no effect from it.... but let's imagine for the sake of argument that the original writer of this thread WAS getting an effect from the naloxone... maybe it was not completely broken down at the liver. If that was the case, the person would get withdrawal symptoms from the naloxone for maybe 20 minutes-- which is how long naloxone lasts, even when INJECTED, and in much higher doses than what is found in Suboxone. There is just no way that the naloxone in Suboxone is going to have a prolonged effect in the body-- of ANYONE." -Suboxdoc

Hope that helps (I had to cut and paste manually and add my own quotations, because I didn't know how to "really" quote Suboxdoc the way we're supposed to.)
james


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:11 pm 
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Quote:
Completely inactive.


Are you saying that injecting 2 mg of naloxone will not have any effect? How is that even possible? I would say that it's highly improbable that injecting 2 mg of naloxone will have no effect. Perhaps no outwardly measurable effect, maybe--even then though I think it unlikely.

I think that not all of the buprenorphine is "blocked" by the naloxone (i.e. buprenorphine has a higher binding affinity) but it should still have some effect.

I'm curious. The molar mass of buprenorphine is 467.64 g/mol and naloxone is 327.27 g/mol. This means that there are 6.022 x 10^23 molecules of buprenorphine in every 467.64 g of it. So, in an 8/2 Suboxone there are:

((467.64 g/mol)/(0.008 g))^-1 --> (1.7107 × 10^-5 moles) * (6.022 x 10^23) = 1.0302 × 10^19 molecules o' buprenorphine

((327.27 g/mol)/(0.002 g))^-1 --> (6.1112 × 10^-6 moles) * (6.022 x 10^23) = 3.6801 × 10^18 molecules of naloxone

So, in each pill there are 6.62185822 × 10^18 more molecules of buprenorphine than naloxone. (This is the comparison to be used because mass/weight really has nothing to do with it). But ahhhhh! This is only 2.8 times more bupe (2.8:1) than naloxone! The ratio this way is less than with mass (which is 4:1). This is interesting although it doesn't really mean much without knowing precise details about each drugs reactivity with the different receptors.

What do you guys think? Surely the chemists and drug designers thought about this when they made the pill; I wonder what the implications are...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:23 pm 
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I would like to ask. I too seem to exhibit measurable irritability very soon after dosin. Now I read a post about naloxone in some people isn!t eliminated by first pass metabolism but makes its way into the brain and aspinal chord deminishing buprenprphic effect. I always felt the effects of any pill in a quarter of the normal time of onset of efficacy. Like i metabolize very quickly. I am on Lamictal I don!t know if that effects me or nor or if I am one of those unlucky few that the naloxone gives problems. P.S. I will continue to take my Sub. Otherwise I would be jailed or dead. I need advice please. Also. Can suboxone cause swollen throat and sore throat cause i am suffering that as well as severe headaches anxiety and insomnia. My dr. Gave me clonazepam but it doesnt help.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Hi john and welcome to the forum,

As it sounds like you've read, a small number of people have trouble with the naloxone. They usually spit out what's left of the dissolved pill (after the appropriate amount of time) instead of swallowing. This can help reduce headaches. I also take Lamictal and don't have any problems taking it with the suboxone. As for the swollen and sore throat, I doubt it's related to the suboxone. Perhaps you have a virus or infection?

Personally I don't have any problems sleeping (that I didn't have before starting sub), but nor does it make me terribly sleepy. But people report both side effects. When do you take your sub? Maybe you can adjust your schedule or even lower your dose to lower some of the side effects.

Good luck and keep us posted.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:59 pm 
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I am of the opinion that if a patient is not an IV user they should NOT be rx'd
suboxone. I mean it's better than nothing but I just went my first 2 weeks
on Subutex (buprenorphine only ) and I feel soooo much better and more
positive and NOT depressed since I don't have to injest all that stupid
naloxone.

I know for a fact now that the mix of naloxone has a NEGATIVE effect with
me and many others. I used to get soo angry and mad and sad and emotions
all over the place because of the extra junk in Suboxone. I am going to
bring this up to my doc when I see him in a few weeks. That Subutex
has me feeling much better than all those years taking the xone.

Many may not agree but everyones biochemistry differs...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:32 am 
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Hi, i'm new here and still finding my way around... I'm very interested in this bupe only vs. sub issue. Can anyone tell me, is subutex the brand name version of just bupe? I tried generic & it was NOT GOOD for me. Convinced there is gluten in the filler, and i have a health condition that's made worse by gluten. I can tell when i'm exposed, and i had symptoms, plus felt low-level dope sick on the stuff. Tried higher dose & spitting, nothing helped. So i'm back on sub films. I've basically done well on sub for 2 & 1/2 years, but i don't want the extra chemicals going in my body. [I should qualify that a little: I am actually having brain & memory issues, which i suspect might be due to staying in higher dose range long term (24 mgs/day). Also, fatigue. But i can't tell if it's meds or autoimmune. This i will be pursuing on other forum threads...] I'm reading that there are no long term studies on effects of naloxone in the body/mind. It may be essentially inert with sublingual use, but any unnecessary load on the liver is a health risk in my book. I read some posts with people doing well on generics, but they are unfortunately not for me. Can anyone help me with this? Brand name bupe=Subutex? I was never an IV user, so the naloxone is pointless in my world... And what is cost of name brand bupe? Is it high? Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Hi bandersnatch and welcome to the forum. Yes, Subutex is the brand name for regular buprenophine (without the naloxone). Unfortunately it is pretty expensive - like more so than suboxone is! I have heard that people get different "results" (for lack of a better word) from generics. How many of the different generic brands have you tried? I think there are three different ones out now. Some people do poorly on one, but fine on another one. Maybe you could try getting a different one from the pharmacy? It might be worth a try. Good luck to you! Hope to see you around the forum.

Oh and your fatigue, etc, could very well be because of your high dose. Are you just taking sub for addiction or also for pain? If it's just for addiction, you should do just fine if you drop your dose. Have you considered that or even tried doing that yet? Many many people who were on high doses tapered down to a lower one and actually felt tons better on the lower dose. The idea is to be on the lowest dose necessary to completely address all of your cravings and withdrawals. Any dose higher than that is pretty much unnecessary and could even be called a waste - especially if you're paying cash for your meds. Take care and let us know how you're doing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:17 pm 
anginapain wrote:
I am of the opinion that if a patient is not an IV user they should NOT be rx'd
suboxone. I mean it's better than nothing but I just went my first 2 weeks
on Subutex (buprenorphine only ) and I feel soooo much better and more
positive and NOT depressed since I don't have to injest all that stupid
naloxone.

I know for a fact now that the mix of naloxone has a NEGATIVE effect with
me and many others. I used to get soo angry and mad and sad and emotions
all over the place because of the extra junk in Suboxone. I am going to
bring this up to my doc when I see him in a few weeks. That Subutex
has me feeling much better than all those years taking the xone.

Many may not agree but everyones biochemistry differs...


I was an IV user, and I begged my doctor to switch me to Subutex. He told me he only prescribes it to pregnant women, but since I have been giving clean drug tests since the beginning, he would prescribe it to me (he doesn't care about weed. I love my Sub doc because he is 100% fact based. He doesn't care about NA because there are no studies to suggest it works, and he doesn't care about weed because it will not interact negatively with any of the meds he is prescribing :)

Anywho, the reason for the prescription switch is because I have IBS and a hyperactive thyroid, and there is evidence to suggest that the naloxone in Suboxone can irritate people with gastrointestinal problems.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:32 pm 
Just to add: I never have and never would inject buprenorphine, unless I had Buprenex ampoules.

It's an abscess waiting to happen.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Thanks for responding, hatmaker, and for the welcome... I can't tell you how grateful i am to have found this site! Wish i'd found it sooner... The effect of finding a community to share experience & learn with has been profound for me.

I recently got health insurance, so meds are covered with a small copay. After years of feeling i was working just to be able to buy my next meds, this is a great relief. So Subutex might be possible for me. I'll talk with my doc at next appointment. I'm not thrilled about repeating my experience with generics any time soon...

I take sub for addiction only, not pain, and i have to admit that i've been behaving like a junkie with my sub. (AND I'M SO RELIEVED TO FIND THIS COMMUNITY WHERE I CAN TELL OTHER SYMPATHETIC EARS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sigh.) By that i mean taking more & more, basically for energy. (Opiates always turned me into a fantastic workhorse, and as a low energy person, i really loved that effect.) I've gone as high as 32 mgs/day at times. My doc says our bodies can't use anything over 24/day, so it's a waste of meds & money to do so. I'm experiencing some possible side effects, mostly around memory & brain function, and from some posts i've read elsewhere in the forum, others have had similar effects. I am getting serious about getting some of this stuff out of my system to see if my mind clears a bit. (Interested in the posts about stacking effect - i didn't know...) I would ideally like to get down to 8 mgs/day or below. I did get down to 16 at one point, but then crept back up. At this point, i need to know if it's meds or some other health problem, and there's only one way to find out... I will take some time tapering, but i think i can get back down to 16 fairly quickly, and painlessly. I'm going to keep digging around here now that i've found you, and learn all i can. See you soon...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:30 pm 
bandersnatch wrote:
Thanks for responding, hatmaker, and for the welcome... I can't tell you how grateful i am to have found this site! Wish i'd found it sooner... The effect of finding a community to share experience & learn with has been profound for me.

I recently got health insurance, so meds are covered with a small copay. After years of feeling i was working just to be able to buy my next meds, this is a great relief. So Subutex might be possible for me. I'll talk with my doc at next appointment. I'm not thrilled about repeating my experience with generics any time soon...

I take sub for addiction only, not pain, and i have to admit that i've been behaving like a junkie with my sub. (AND I'M SO RELIEVED TO FIND THIS COMMUNITY WHERE I CAN TELL OTHER SYMPATHETIC EARS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sigh.) By that i mean taking more & more, basically for energy. (Opiates always turned me into a fantastic workhorse, and as a low energy person, i really loved that effect.) I've gone as high as 32 mgs/day at times. My doc says our bodies can't use anything over 24/day, so it's a waste of meds & money to do so. I'm experiencing some possible side effects, mostly around memory & brain function, and from some posts i've read elsewhere in the forum, others have had similar effects. I am getting serious about getting some of this stuff out of my system to see if my mind clears a bit. (Interested in the posts about stacking effect - i didn't know...) I would ideally like to get down to 8 mgs/day or below. I did get down to 16 at one point, but then crept back up. At this point, i need to know if it's meds or some other health problem, and there's only one way to find out... I will take some time tapering, but i think i can get back down to 16 fairly quickly, and painlessly. I'm going to keep digging around here now that i've found you, and learn all i can. See you soon...


If you get enough of a lift from Suboxone that you feel the need to take more and more..well, have you ever thought you may not need it?

Buprenorphine maintenance was designed for people with high tolerances in the first place. I don't know how long you have been on it, but if you are abusing a drug that cannot get you high (it really cannot get anyone high who is supposed to be on it, as we all know), it may not be the right med for you. Suboxone at that high of a dose anyway wreaks havoc on your opiate receptors. At 24-32 mg/day, what would you do if you ever needed a full-agonist, like for surgery? There is no medically acceptable dose of oxy that could TOUCH you if you jack your tolerance up that high, IMO.

^ No problem sourcing once allowed by the forum. I have read that 1 mg bupe = 60 mg morphine


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Hi Bandersnatch,

It sounds like you have Celiac disese. My mom and my brother and his oldest daughter have it. It's really interesting how many people suffer with Gluten intolerance and don't even know it.

I too looked for any long term studies on Naloxone, but came up empty handed. Frustrating, isn't it? Naloxone is a drug designed for one time use.....or more specifically, to arrest opiate OD. It was never designed to be taken daily. From what I've read, Naloxone is indeed absorbed through mucous membranes too. I read that in this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone

I wanted to also let you know that you're not the only person who abused their Suboxone, I did too. I didn't shoot it or anything like that, but I almost always took as much as I could and I'd run out just before my next doctor appointment. Have you considered working with an addiction counselor?

Contrary to what Ironic wrote, I got a certain kind of high off of Suboxone the entire time I was on it. It wasn't a classic opiate high, but it was some kind of high.

I hope you're able to work your way down to 16mg or even lower and that those lower doses still keep your cravings at bay.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:19 am 
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Thank you for your compassionate response, romeo. I am new to forum communication (have never been on one anywhere), and when i read ironic's response, it really made me wonder if i should have so frankly aired my skeletons here so soon after joining (or ever). I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that i'm just some joy-rider on sub for no good reason and only abusing it. I am here for good reason, and i am on the right med. I just have some work to do.

I actually have an autoimmune dis-ease called hashimoto's thyroiditis, where my body thinks my thyroid is a foreign invader and thus attacks it. The gluten molecule looks almost identical to thyroid at a molecular level, so consuming it triggers increased attack on my thyroid. That's it in a nutshell... I've been off gluten for over a year (since diagnosis), and i can tell when i get even small amounts of it.

Thanks for the naloxone info. Yes, it's frustrating not being able to find good, solid info... Since i never used IV, i'm at zero risk for injecting. It irks me that i am forced to dump an unknown chemical into my body to prevent others from injecting it. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me... for me.

Anyway, thanks for being kind. I will be more careful and thoughtful with my words in future, lest i again give the wrong impression. I definitely should be working with an addiction counselor. I've tried going it alone, and it hasn't worked so great for me. I haven't relapsed in 2 & 1/2 years, but i haven't decreased my meds significantly, either. And my relationship with sub is similar to my relationship with my opiate of choice. That can't be healthy.... or productive...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:29 am 
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Hey bandersnatch,

You most certainly don't have to hold back sharing about your experiences, they're your experiences and they're completely valid. Being open and honest about it is a great way to move your recovery forward.

Don't feel too bad for abusing your Suboxone, you are NOT the only one to do that, trust me. I've talked with several other people on this very forum who have done much the same thing you did. Like I said earlier, I abused my Suboxone too, but guess what......I've been off of all drugs (including Suboxone) a year and 4 months now. I had 3 brief slips while off of Suboxone, but I'm still pluggin' away at my recovery.

I worked with an addiction counselor for a few years.....the whole time I was on Suboxone actually. He helped me understand addiction and got me started in recovery. I felt kinda bad that I was not taking my Suboxone properly while working with him, but that was the path I had to follow to be where I am today.

Please don't take what I'm saying as permission to continue abusing your Sub, I think the sooner you start taking your Sub correctly, the better off you will be.

I hope you stick around and continue to share. Recovery is next to impossible to do alone and with a forum like this, you certainly don't have to go through your recovery alone.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:45 am 
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Congratulations, Romeo, that's fabulous! How long were you on opiates, then sub? I have a deep fear that i've permanently trashed my brain receptors, and i fear life post-meds. I remember the feeling of deflation & depression, and i'm afraid to face that again. I've been on & off since 2003 when i started my opiate years, but totally stable on sub since 2008. I would like to get down to a small dose under 8 mgs. In my first 2 wd's using bupe, i used it to taper over the course of 1-2 months to get totally clean. This time i chose maintenance, but i've gotten a bit too comfortable here. My doc is wonderful, but also maybe too relaxed. He's not a nazi, and doesn't support that approach, which has possibly given me too long a leash. He has let me make decisions for myself, which i appreciate, but i probably could benefit from someone getting a little pushy with me at this point. It will have to be me...

I def won't take your shared experience as justification for abuse. It helps to know i'm not alone. Shame & blame never helped anyone recover. I am determined to get my ass back to work and taper down to a reasonable amount. I have reason to believe that the high doses are not only affecting my mind and taking it from me, but also messing with my thyroid & hormone systems. I've been too soft with myself for too long, and it's showing up in my health & quality of life. It has helped to read reports from so many of minimal wd effects from sane tapers. Others have done this & managed... Like you!

Thank you for sharing your experience and compassion. See you around... Oh, and if you ever uncover anything about naloxone and feel like sharing, send it my way...


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