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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:41 pm 
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I have 2 adult children on Subx. One has been taking it for about 5 years, the other for 3 years. It seems that one has become overbearing with an attitude that is hard to be around. The other was always so loving but and has ADHD and is also taking Adderall. My concerns are that subx is causing them to become very different people. I understand while they were addicts they were very happy go lucky. However the family is noticing the worsening attitudes of both using subx. One sleeps through the alarm clock often and is late for work. That may be a gaming issues which is another problem. He seems very depressed, stays to himself, works full time but never socializes. He does not drink and doesn't want to be around people who do drugs or drink. However at 27 I feel, and possibly wrongly, that he should be out and having friends, being active and enjoying life without drugs or booze. The other son is married and works full time. Any topic of discussion will turn him into a walking asshole. He is always right, always knows more, is a real pain in the butt on any conversation. These are not my sons. Does subx change the brain chemistry so much that their true self is lost? They see the same doctor who does not require them to be in counseling. The older one was in jail for 2 weeks over pot. He was in rehab for 30 days. The younger one has never been in rehab. Is it me? Or have my sons been altered due to Subx or ? How long can they safely stay on Subx? I need help understanding and there doesn't seem to be a true outlet for families who have these questions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:59 pm 
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Hi Worried Mom,

While I sympathize greatly with your situation, I had to laugh at your refreshing objectivity. Most mothers have blinders on when it comes to their children.

I can promise you bupe does not in any way alter behavior or personalities in the ways you listed. Not to get fancy, but you're committing a common and understandable logical fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc ...after this (taking subs) therefore (the personality change) is because of this (taking subs).. I probably sound like you know-it-all son, but I was always like this. I can't blame subs.

I hope one of the docs will check in to give you a professional opinion. IN the meanwhile, i'm sure other civilians will drop by (aka as recovering addicts on bupe) to back up what I'm telling you.

If I were to guess I'd say your sons haven't done the personal work...therapy, 12 Steps etc....necessary to grow up into decently functioning young men.

p.s. in answer to your question, some people stay on subs for many years...possibly decades with no personality changes....or anything problematic outside of complication wrt pain treatment after surgery.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Hello Worriedmom.
Welcome to this great forum. Ive been on this med for just over 6 years. Six years that gave me a new drug free life. Had it not been for suboxone I would not be were I am.
It seems in most cases life goes aloug and we deal with things as they come without the escape of opiates to smooth the way. And that is hard, very hard for us. Including your boys.
My guess Mom is that they are still suffering underneath from the pressures of todays world. Vidio games are an escape for the yourger one possibly.
Your older one has a family and all the pressures of that. Brain changes have occurred loug before Buprenorphine was introduced. Im sorry,im not a dr, but hafe been here reading and learning since 2012. May I suggest you also go over to Dr Junigs Talkzone, use the search box and read what he has to say about all thing Buprenorphine. You cant can't go wroug there.
Watch his vidio channel on UTube-Addiction Remission. .
Sounds to me though that your guys have saved themselves from a life of pain and misery staying on this med. I know it did for me. My 2 cents..
Razor


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:49 pm 
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I
Quote:
t seems in most cases life goes aloug and we deal with things as they come without the escape of opiates to smooth the way. And that is hard, very hard for us. Including your boys.
My guess Mom is that they are still suffering underneath from the pressures of todays world. Vidio games are an escape for the yourger one possibly.
Your older one has a family and all the pressures of that. Brain changes have occurred loug before Buprenorphine was introduced


Couldn't have said it better razor. We get sober after a lifetime of taking drugs, and inside
we're still immature babies. I started drinking and taking drugs just after I hit puberty. And that's not uncommon. What chance did we have to grow up when every challenging situation we encounter we take
drugs to get through.

When I sobered up in AA back in the 80's I was already in my mid-30's and I had to deal with
what I've come to understand was social phobia. It's part of why I started drinking and drugging
in the first place. So there I was a grown man, and I could barely look other people in the eye. AA and NA
are at bottom social interactions. You get up and speak, you form friendships, go on commitments. I could
barely stand going out for coffee after meetings.It was intensely humiliating to be so uncomfortable..But I stayed sober and began to grow up. After a couple of years I began to learn to like myself better. Socializing while never fun for me, became easier. I suddenly had more friends than I could count.

My point is if I'd just stopped getting high and not gone to all those meetings, nothing would have changed.
The work by its nature is difficult, for some more than others, but it's work that has to be done.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:51 am 
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They guys are absolutely correct. If buprenorphine was going to change your boys' personalities, it would have done so when they started it. Buprenorphine is only a tool that puts the cravings and obsession to sleep. While they don't have to deal with these symptoms they should be going to some kind of therapy, individual or group, going to support meetings. I like SMART Recovery myself. It's based on cognitive behavioral therapy.

If your boys are willing to work on themselves, which is the real cure for addiction, then they are at least reaping the benefit of harm reduction, aka not dying of an overdose. That is no small thing. Buprenorphine is not the beginning and the end, it is the middle.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:27 am 
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I'm 38 and still avid about gaming online. Don't get out much...but I have a family...and such. I don't neglect my daughter, who's 5, or other children for it..but I do enjoy it quite a bit. It's a release.

Been on Sub for nearly 10 years. Around April of 2007 is when I started.

you mentioned being happy go lucky while on drugs...and that's pretty self explanatory.
It's dealing with the pressures of life that cause people to go down these paths to begin with...
Drugs is an escape from reality..

Now, with sub in the picture, the drug-seeking behaviors are put at ease...and once again, it's dealing with reality and life. Some people have the ability to do so, some don't.
I didn't for a while after I got into Suboxone. It took me a couple of years to get a handle on stresses and such..
I remember (just one example here, of many)...let me get a little deeper before I tell you this example...:

My wife and I almost divorced over my addiction to pills. I was BAD on that stuff.
And we separated to begin with...and went to see a lawyer...
And all the papers were ready..and it was paid for. Our 7 years of marriage was over....
But I didn't sign my part of the papers. I dragged it out...
In the meantime....I found "new" love...apparently. Or so I thought.
For about 6 months, this new girl lived here...and we purchased things on her credit...and I went through money like it was candy because she had great credit and handed me no-limit cards..
I remember one credit card I used having a $50,000 limit on it...I was in heaven!!
But..when I came to my senses..and got help...I realized that the grass was NOT greener.
My wife and I mended our broken relationship...and we got back together (only after I was clean).

Now...a year after starting sub..with my wife back home..and me throwing the "new" girl out..I had to deal with her mom being ...well a mom. She wanted me to put a lien against my house to pay for all the drugs and crap I had done..
Every time I had to answer the phone to that woman...I would start sweating and stress...like unbelievable..I had never had that happen to me. Even had my DR give me clonopin because it caused me so much anxiety to deal with things..
I remember a time or 2 the mom just showed up here at my house...without warning..
So we started closing the windows and locking doors..and would hide in the house like no one was home..
It was no way to live.
I finally learned to cope and deal with it..but that was part of the things that drugs kept me from having to face...
Having to learn those coping skills all over after addiction..well that was even tougher...
But I did it.

And now, I deal with a 16 year-old daughter.....and my sister living here who thinks she should stay without paying a dime towards any bills ...all sorts of usual life issues. I face it every single day...and don't turn to drugs.

But in learning those coping skills I now possess, it took me facing reality. And I had bad moods..and bad attitudes..and bad tempers...all the things that people have..all those emotions. And it taught me to handle the stuff that people deal with WITHOUT the mask of drugs to cover it all up.
And I can do it..and I'll continue to do it.
Nothing will stop me from coping and dealing with whatever happens...that's part of life and growing as an adult. We all must do it.

I'd suggest printing out some of this stuff and present it to your two kids. Let them see that others deal with things and have issues...knowing someone has been there may help them to see that they can do it. All it takes is facing it head-on without wavering.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Suboxone is a tool to help with recovery. If you scroll down you will see a lot of the symptoms that you are describing.
http://www.the-alcoholism-guide.org/dry-drunk.html
In my experience can occur with any addiction, may not be using but certainly miserable.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:09 pm 
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What a great link docm2! I hadn't read through dry drunk symptoms so far and it is really helpful. The new member, Tray, who told me I was not the god of suboxone, seems to have a lot of these same symptoms. If he ever comes back hopefully someone can show him this link, just not me.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
What a great link docm2! I hadn't read through dry drunk symptoms so far and it is really helpful. The new member, Tray, who told me I was not the god of suboxone, seems to have a lot of these same symptoms. If he ever comes back hopefully someone can show him this link, just not me.

Amy


Heh, Amy. Were I you, I wouldn't want to do it either :P
You've been brave enough with old Tray.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Quote:
who told me I was not the god of suboxone


At most a demigod, maybe a hero, but not a god.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:21 pm 
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docm2 wrote:
Quote:
who told me I was not the god of suboxone


At most a demigod, maybe a hero, but not a god.


I would accept queen.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Hello, Mom, whata ya think? ....


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:39 am 
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Geez ...everyone with their two or three cents...y'all must be suboxone gods or something.

If Mr. Tray would step back and think about that one comment....let's put it in perspective:

Who would want to be a suboxone god? Is that an acquired title, or is it something people would strive to be...
Like a little child watching a super-hero movie..and saying "when I grow up, I want to be a suboxone god!!"

So in order to be this "god"...of suboxone..one would need to virtually face death head-on..taking the chance of overdose, and become trapped inside active addiction in order to become a "suboxone god".

Doesn't really sound like a title i would want to be, or strive for.

Apparently, this guy didn't put much thought into his statement...
If anything, I'd take it as a compliment...because to have that "title"...it means I'm still alive and addiction did not win me...I'm winning over it.
he should try a different "sandwich"...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:32 am 
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You're a Good Mom ....
We don't stop being parents when our Children hit the Mid-twenties ....
I'm not sure How but both my Adult daughters are drug & Alcohol Free... I say I don't know how Because I'm a Recovering Alcoholic / Addict and so is there Mother ( Unfortunately not so much Recovery in their Mom's Life ) Anyways I am Blessed and that I know !! I have been Clean & Sober for 7 1/2 years. I am on Suboxone But I also go to meetings on a regular basis .. When I first got on the Medication I had to see a counselor every 2 weeks or NO script... Now I just go to meetings on my own because I enjoy them and I know I will fail if I try to do this Alone !!
In regards to your Sons .. I'm Happy to hear they are in the Subox program BUT I think they are only doing Half the Program. ANY DR. or Counselor I have ever meet ( and there have been a Few) say that the Medication is only a part of recovery. There must be some counseling / Meetings as well. It doesn't have to be a 12 Step program although that has done wonders for Me! But We addicts CAN'T do this alone.. Many have tried and I know of None that have been able to do it Alone! Maybe you can introduce them to this forum? But in my Opinion they Need to get some help other then the Meds !!
I wish you all the Best and Keep pulling for them .. There is a Wonderful life out there for them and for You.... They just have to work a little harder to find it !!

God Bless ..

~ T

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Great post TWINPLY,
Good to hear from you again...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Whoa for a minute there I thought that was my mom. My little brother is on subs, too, and I game like crazy. I drink a bit here and there, so I guess that's not her. Haha...

My serious 2 cents, though: I can definitely relate to the anti-social bit. I was downright ashamed of what I had done before going on subs. Scarred. Stopped talking to anyone who knew that person who used hard drugs. Even good friends who were clean and would understand. And even though its most of a decade later, I still have people tell me I have a wall/shell around me. I am not attributing it to the sub use, let me make clear. Just the embarrassment of my sins in the past. Every sub reminded me of a needle for the first few years. By the way, I also know everything and am never wrong. Heh. Keep them stable on the subs, show them love, and admit that people change over time. Family is too important.....

My only other thought is low T? Can a Doc chime in on that?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:20 pm 
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docm2 and Amy, Until your posts here, I never saw the 'dry addict' connection - where folks that come here w no recovery work and are incorrectly mad at bup instead of mad at their addiction -- could also be experiencing the 'dry addict' syndrome. I never put it together till now. That this syndrome could also be mixed into their upset w bup.

WorriedMom,
You've received some great responds here. When you are looking up more on this 'dry drunk' syndrome, replace the word alcohol with addict and you'll see how it fits your sons. Its is the term given to the conditions that afflict patients who no longer have a physical craving, but still have unresolved psychological and behavioral issues that stem from their addiction.

Bup stops the physical cravings, which is huge, gives the foundation for needed recovery work and healing to occur. But Bup can't do the recovery work - we each have to do that work ourselves. We see it over and over here, bup plus recovery efforts really work! Folks get their lives back and live healthy happy lives. Wishing you my best, P

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:20 pm 
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I actually thought of Low T as well. Obviously, I'm not a doctor, but I've seen it come up on the forum numerous times. There are plenty of men here who have talked about getting theirs checked. Young men like Mom's 2 sons may not have thought to get theirs checked. Mom, low testosterone can result from any opiate use, including suboxone, and if they are low it can lead to depression for sure.

When I was actively using I was doing it at home. I felt safe and secure in my home, especially my bedroom. At the time I started subs I was barely getting out of my room. In fact, I barely left the house. I had to take baby steps to feel comfortable going out. I started volunteering at a daycare for kids of addict moms. Then I took a nannying job. Now, I'm in grad school, albeit online. The point is that it took time for me to want to expand my world again. It was hard. My father and sister still don't understand why I couldn't just jump right back to being my "normal" self that they knew until I became addicted in my 30s. Addiction changed me for sure.

I just wanted to share some of my story in case it helps.

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:47 pm 
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I only started connecting it myself, P, in the last couple of years. And I didn't think of the dry drunk description until the other day when docm2 mentioned it.

I think that my schooling has a lot to do with my evolving sense of what addiction requires in terms of really recovering. Dr. J's input has also been invaluable to my education.

This is where I'm at right now. Even on buprenorphine there are plenty of addicts who haven't taken responsibility for their recovery, and that is an essential mindset change for an addict. These addicts come here and bash buprenorphine because it hasn't fixed everything. Maybe they were told by a doctor that suboxone would cure their addiction. Regardless of the reason, however, they haven't made the changes in their lives necessary to recover.

This is where I diverge from some others here. I think there need to be national recommendations in place that suggest the types of therapy that buprenorphine patients need in addition to the medication. And there might need to be some oversight from some regulatory body to make sure that it happens. This is why. First off, not all of the doctors who prescribe buprenorphine are psychiatrists like Dr. J. or spend time on this type of recovery forum, like docm2. There are doctors who have taken the required 8 hour class, but know very little else about addiction besides what they are taught by a pharmaceutical company selling a drug. There are clinics, like the one Razor has gone to that sends their buprenorphine patients down the road to 12 step meetings where they are encouraged to get off their medication as quickly as possible.

For most opiate addicts the medication is not enough to get them to real, lasting recovery. Even those who are on buprenorphine for a number of years do not necessarily find their way to lasting recovery, although some do. Shouldn't there be some uniform recommendations in place by people who are working in addiction recovery? I don't like the thought of a mandate or laws in place regarding recovery work, but I do think that national recommendations are warranted. I'm not a policy expert, of course. I've only taken one policy class in my graduate program. I don't know how the recommendations would work. But I see a huge gap between buprenorphine treatment as it exists now and where it needs to be to have people actively working on recovery.

Anyway, those are my opinions. I think we would get more of the treatment community on board if they could take an active part in making some recommendations too.

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Hi Mom
I really think your sons would have benefitted from counseling. They could even go together. my doctor requires 1 counseling visit or 1 NA meeting a month. I'm surprised their doctor doesn't do the same.
There is some underlying issue behind their drug use, unless they both somehow started out on pain meds for actual physical pain.
I was self-medicating for both pain and anxiety. Plus I had other issues that have come out in therapy that made me understand why I began using in the 1st place.
Good luck with your sons.

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