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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:30 pm 
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Hi, my son is an addict, started doing heroin at 16, he is now 21 he also got into oxys and other opiates pretty heavy from what he tells me. he stole anything we had of value over and over again, he swore up and down he did not have a problem, I was the only one who knew better, finally I got tough and told him it was rehab or we weould not have anymore to do with him he finally agreed to go, I was online calling the 1-88 #'s within moments of his agreement, beware of the 1-800 #'s but that is another story, before he went, he begged me for money to go buy a suboxin, this was the first i heard of these but I guess he had been doing them regularly wehn he could for a while, and when his friends supply ran out, he would go into horrible withdrawels, mood swings etc. ( I se this in hindsight) anyway,, he got on a plane for the west coast across the country from us. the first stop was a 7 day detox- I did not know this at the time but the detox consisted of suboxone, then they brought him to the 30 day ctr, this place does not believe in subscribing suboxone, so he spent the next 10 days to current withdrawing from that, he says his chest hurts, the first days he could not eat, sleep , was depressed, it did not get better, the ctr prescribed flexoroll, anti - anxiet , about 6 diff pills, today they told him he was bipolar and add so he is on librium , flexorol, blah, blah, blah, he insists he just needs suboxone and he will be able to focus and function and that he wants to leave, I have been thinking suboxone is what caused all this angst in the first place but reading here I am wondering if I am right or is he? will things get better and is the addict just trying to get out? is he getting more messed uo by this new drug cocktail, should I find a suboxone clinic and try to get him moved? will outr lif EVER be normal, is he truly bipolar , add, blah, blah, blah? he was a normal kid until we moved and other life- changing events occured when he was 13 so I can't believe he is mentally ill. any help and advice and insight would be greatly appreciated. thanks and God Bless!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:45 am 
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Hi kimg70 and I'm so sorry for the circumstances that brought you here. I can hear the desperation in your words. And I completely understand why. Unfortunately, the confusion between addiction and other mental illness is, in my opinion, not unusual. When an opiate addict is in withdrawals, how can a person be competently diagnosed with or without a mood disorder? If I were in your shoes, THAT would be my main concern and question to them. It's like diagnosing someone with a speech impediment when they have laryngitis. It makes no sense. The diagnosis will be inherently wrong.

But, I can't tell you what you should do. I can't even tell you that suboxone is what he needs. Rehab is one treatment and suboxone is another treatment. Sometimes they are combined, sometimes not. He does sound to me like an excellent candidate for sub treatment. He's most likely asking for the sub right now because he knows it will take him out of withdrawals. Hell, I'd be asking for it, too. That said, it's not that it's because sub is causing all this "angst", as you put it, not at all. He's in withdrawals - THAT alone causes a great deal of angst - both emotionally, mentally, and physically.

And in the midst of all that, they are adding a bunch of psychotropic meds to the mix. That would concern me as well. Again, I can't tell you what to do. You have to do what you think is right. When I have difficult decisions to make, I try to look forward at which choice I will least regret making.

I don't know if any of this helps you or makes it worse. I'm just so sorry you're going through this and I really wish there was something concrete I could do for you.

Hang in there and please keep us posted on how the BOTH of you are doing. Take care of yourself, too.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:11 am 
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I'm really sorry you both are going through this. I have to second what Hat said, that diagnosing someone as bipolar is inappropriate during opiate/Suboxone withdrawal. I am currently going off Suboxone myself, and I can honestly say that if a psychiatrist evaluated my behavior over the past couple of weeks they would probably say I'm bipolar. The mood swings are significant; extreme sadness, anger and sometimes hysterical laughter. Trust me, it's definitely the WD's.

So I would insist they take him off the bipolar meds. The anti-anxiety meds might actually help him feel better if used short term (and not six at a time). If one of the meds is Clonidine you will want him to stay on that until he feels better. Since after 10 days he is pretty much through the worst of it, I would let him give Sober recovery a shot. If he does relapse or is in immanent danger of a relapse, you might want to strongly consider Suboxone, but he needs to know that he has to take his dose every day, and not go off for a couple of days at a time so he can use. You might want to look into Sub doctors in your area, and find a reputable one, and maybe get him on a waiting list. If he doesn't go that route, the next person in line will get his spot, so not to worry. As far as a reputable doctor - I mean not a "cash only" clinic, and preferably not one connected with pain management docs who prescribe high levels of opiates in the first place.

BTW this is all just my personal opinion. I am not a medical professional. I wish you the best, and please update us as to how things are going.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:43 am 
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Hi, I've been in similar shoes to you and understand a bit what you are going through. This is good advice above of what you might be able to do for him. Can I also stress to you that there is no exact set of things that you yourself can do to fix this - the reality is that you can be support and learning how to be that support is difficult - of course because you are dealing now with your own pain of seeing it all happen.

I don't want to give you direct advice, but I would like to say that I wish I tried harder to make it known that 'I miss you and want you back', I wish I tried harder not to ambush, try not to control - realize that if / when I found stuff and want to get take it away that it was only reinforcing a lack of understanding - leaving alone and placing a loving note would have been so much better. I've walked a close line to dependency myself and even knowing the incredible power of the pull of the substances, still was unable for a long time to understand these things. I know now I did not have the right or credibility to apply advice and perspective onto things, but rather needed to earn the privilege to function as a helper.

Every situation is a little different though, so this is simply someone else's experience for you to ponder...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:24 pm 
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I too am so sorry you are dealing with this and agree with everyone else that treating him for bi-polar disorder during withdrawl makes no sense to me. I would like to answer some of your questions about Suboxone. Your son is opiate dependant from his heroin and oxy use. Most likely he would use Suboxone when he could not find his doc. The Suboxone is not the reason he is withdrawing, he already had that coming from his drug use. Dr prescribed Suboxone maintenance is given once a day, this will keep your son out of withdrawl and allow him to work his recovery without having to be in withdrawl and then post acute withdrawl (which can go on for months). Suboxone does not make an opiate dependant individual feel high, it simply makes them feel normal. It is a partial agonist, meaning taking more and more will not give you a high. It is a very useful recovery tool and should be used in conjuction with a recovery plan. I would strongly suggest going on YouTube and watching Dr Junigs videos explaining suboxone. They are very informative.

I can not tell you the right thing to do either. Recovery is very individual but I would urge you to take what your son says and wants into account. Ultimately he is the only one who can fight this battle and only he knows how he is feeling and what is working for him. My heart goes out to you and hope your don can find the treatment he needs.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:26 pm 
kimg70 wrote:
Hi, my son is an addict, started doing heroin at 16, he is now 21 he also got into oxys and other opiates pretty heavy from what he tells me. he stole anything we had of value over and over again, he swore up and down he did not have a problem, I was the only one who knew better, finally I got tough and told him it was rehab or we weould not have anymore to do with him he finally agreed to go, I was online calling the 1-88 #'s within moments of his agreement, beware of the 1-800 #'s but that is another story, before he went, he begged me for money to go buy a suboxin, this was the first i heard of these but I guess he had been doing them regularly wehn he could for a while, and when his friends supply ran out, he would go into horrible withdrawels, mood swings etc. ( I se this in hindsight) anyway,, he got on a plane for the west coast across the country from us. the first stop was a 7 day detox- I did not know this at the time but the detox consisted of suboxone, then they brought him to the 30 day ctr, this place does not believe in subscribing suboxone, so he spent the next 10 days to current withdrawing from that, he says his chest hurts, the first days he could not eat, sleep , was depressed, it did not get better, the ctr prescribed flexoroll, anti - anxiet , about 6 diff pills, today they told him he was bipolar and add so he is on librium , flexorol, blah, blah, blah, he insists he just needs suboxone and he will be able to focus and function and that he wants to leave, I have been thinking suboxone is what caused all this angst in the first place but reading here I am wondering if I am right or is he? will things get better and is the addict just trying to get out? is he getting more messed uo by this new drug cocktail, should I find a suboxone clinic and try to get him moved? will outr lif EVER be normal, is he truly bipolar , add, blah, blah, blah? he was a normal kid until we moved and other life- changing events occured when he was 13 so I can't believe he is mentally ill. any help and advice and insight would be greatly appreciated. thanks and God Bless!


Treatment centers pull that bullshit all the time. They diagnose a withdrawing addict with all types of mental illnesses and put them on a million different medications (Vistaril!! They CHARGE people for benadryl in a prescription bottle, which is all Vistaril is, and pretend it works as an anti-anxiety medication).

The rehab he is at is 12 Step, no? Steppers mostly rally against Suboxone, saying people who take it aren't clean. So let me guess, according to the treatment center, Suboxone is BAD, but these other medications are totally necessary. If you want NA's official position on Suboxone, look here: http://www.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull29

If this were my kid, I wouldn't have ever used a 12 Step treatment center. I would pull him out and send him to a Sub doc..but nothing will work if he isn't ready to stop..and it sounds like he isn't, considering he wouldn't admit he had a problem in the first place. When I first tried Suboxone a few years ago, I would just save my pills and use them while I was in withdrawal. You have to be motivated to take it as prescribed and not sell/trade it for pills, try to shoot through it, etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Wow! thank you all so much for the replies, he and I are going 'round and 'round when we speak, he says as soon as he gets out of there, he is going to get a suboxone clinic and get that, he would rather take one pill then 7. Can you imagine my sorrow, when after years of this bullshit, he finally admits he needs help and I am thinking he may come out worse than weh he went in? what a let down- I know it is still early and yes, it is a 12 step based program which I do appreciate their values and philosiphies but, I spoke with a counselor yesterday and said, you don't believe in suboxone, yet you believ in Lithium and everything else? I asked him how they can possibly diagnose him with Bipolar after one or two sessions, I do not want him coming out of there worse than he went in, I don't want him to be doing the "thorazine shuffle" I truly expected at this point to be talking to a young man who realized how much of his life was messed up because of drugs, pumped up on sobriety, not to be speaking to someone who is angry ,his words are slurred. I think I may look into a different rehab environment I really don't know what their plan is, I know the boy I raised, he's not Bipolar, maybe a little add, but typical for a boy. this place is costing 1500.00 per day and they are just medicating him, maybe lulling him into compacency? Ideally, I would like to see him without ANY drugs at all to be a functioning man who has his good days and bad, is it asking too much. to the person who wrote that they wished they spent more time saying " I miss you and want you back" rather than controlling, you touched a chord with me, what happened to your child? I feel overwhelmed by the response and advice . no one elsein my family or friends wants to hear about this anymore, they are sick of him and thde pain he's caused and the things he's done, as a mother I need to save him , I pray, pray, pray, don't sleep. he thinks I don't care! He is ALL I care about right now. again thanks so much advice is much appreciated, I don't know if it's allowed but reccomendations of other ctrs would be greatly appreciated as well. God Bless you all.

Kim


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:35 pm 
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"I truly expected at this point to be talking to a young man who realized how much of his life was messed up because of drugs, pumped up on sobriety, not to be speaking to someone who is angry ,his words are slurred."

Are you talking to his counselors about this stuff? You have to drop all expectations and you have to let the professionals do the work. Change doesn't happen overnight. They told me they thought I might be bi-polar in treatment, but turns out I was in withdrawal. However, it is very possible that he might indeed be bi-polar as these issues start to manifest them around 20-22.

While I am a firm believer in Suboxone and received it at my treatment center (they started me on way to high off a dose but that is a whole different story)... all I can do is tell you to let the process play out. He can always get on Suboxone once he is out (with a doctor, not off the street).


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:58 pm 
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kimg70 wrote:
Hi, my son is an addict, started doing heroin at 16, he is now 21 he also got into oxys and other opiates pretty heavy from what he tells me. he stole anything we had of value over and over again, he swore up and down he did not have a problem, I was the only one who knew better, finally I got tough and told him it was rehab or we weould not have anymore to do with him he finally agreed to go, I was online calling the 1-88 #'s within moments of his agreement, beware of the 1-800 #'s but that is another story, before he went, he begged me for money to go buy a suboxin, this was the first i heard of these but I guess he had been doing them regularly wehn he could for a while, and when his friends supply ran out, he would go into horrible withdrawels, mood swings etc. ( I se this in hindsight) anyway,, he got on a plane for the west coast across the country from us. the first stop was a 7 day detox- I did not know this at the time but the detox consisted of suboxone, then they brought him to the 30 day ctr, this place does not believe in subscribing suboxone, so he spent the next 10 days to current withdrawing from that, he says his chest hurts, the first days he could not eat, sleep , was depressed, it did not get better, the ctr prescribed flexoroll, anti - anxiet , about 6 diff pills, today they told him he was bipolar and add so he is on librium , flexorol, blah, blah, blah, he insists he just needs suboxone and he will be able to focus and function and that he wants to leave, I have been thinking suboxone is what caused all this angst in the first place but reading here I am wondering if I am right or is he? will things get better and is the addict just trying to get out? is he getting more messed uo by this new drug cocktail, should I find a suboxone clinic and try to get him moved? will outr lif EVER be normal, is he truly bipolar , add, blah, blah, blah? he was a normal kid until we moved and other life- changing events occured when he was 13 so I can't believe he is mentally ill. any help and advice and insight would be greatly appreciated. thanks and God Bless!







First of all I am no doctor and this is just my opinion. I don't have much for treament centers..I have been in 5 that never offered suboxone and basically just let me cold turkey it without any drugs at all....never worked.

I it were my son I believe I would take him out of that 1500.00 a day center and get him in to see a good suboxone doctor.
If he is addicted to opiates, which it sounds like he is the suboxone will stop his withdrawal, make him feel like his normal self again and not have any cravings for opiates and learn how to live without them. Yes suboxone is an opiate but it is not like the ones he is addicted to. Suboxone does not give you a "high", and the more you take does not do anything for you, you do not feel it, therefore it is easier to stay on the dose the doctor prescribes. Suboxone has been a life savor for me. I was addicted for 29 years and I take 12mg. subutex a day and I have no cravings for my old way of life. I actually have my life back.

This might not work at all for your son but keeping him in a center where they are giving him all kinds of drugs does not sound right....you don't want him doing the melleril shuffle...."ant" been no place" "ant" going no place"...just shuffling!

Again this is just an opinion for what it is worth. I hope whatever you and your son decide will help him to get well and my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Slipper


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:00 pm 
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first off it can take years to accuratly diagnois a mood disorder like bipolar. if he doesn't have a history, I would question the dr about that one...Also, if they put him on any atypical anti- psychotic meds (waaay over prescribed) ask why? because these can cause dramatic life altering side- effects. Technically, mine is bi-polar 2 comorbid adhd. It has taken 15 years to arrive at this conclusion, 15 shrinks, trials of countless meds etc. Substance abuse can mimic diffirent aspects and look like a mood disorder and vise versa. suboxone isn't "bad"; I just want to go ahead and throw that out there. If your son was on any opioids you would prefer it a partial -agonist like suboxone. being a partial -agonist, its virtually impossible to od on and will keep addiction in remission.

In order to give an accurate determination as to whether he is a sub canditate, first the Dr. would need to know the amount of the drug, type, route of administration, length used etc. Is this the only drug he uses? All these are huge factors to determine if he should use an abstinence recovery or medictation assisted.if this is his first stint in rehab and he rarely uses, sure the 12 steps /with out suboxone should be pondered. if he was an iv user, or has a huge habbit, then he might be safer on sub /and the steps because it will occupy opioid receptors and keep cravings at bay. also, age is very important!! i take it he is young- under 30? if so, young addults ( numbers show) have a substancially more difficult time especially if its his first attempt.

i wanted to chime in with my experience and i believe there are many peice of shit rehabs out there. on the contrary i'm not a dr nor your son's i'm simply a poster on a message board. its good practice to always ask questions especially when they throw a bipolar /add dx out so soon..research the meds best of luck to the both of you!


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