It is currently Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:02 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:13 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:24 pm
Posts: 14
Hello, new here, been reading lots of general info on making the Suboxone switch, and would really like some more personalized answers, if anyone can please assist.
I've had a percocet addiction for a little over a year, ranging about 25-75 mgs per day (depending on my motivation to quit that day). I'm a housewife and a mother of three, and felt I "needed it" to get everything done and still keep a smile on my face...that's my cop out answer for my addiction anyway. But anyhow, the time has come to quit - my whole family knows about it and I'm ready.
After lots of anxious research, I decided to take the Suboxone route, though my doc ended up giving me plain buprenorphine (no naloxone) since I already have daily headaches and that can be a side effect. I was in mild withdrawal when I took my first dose yesterday at 5:45pm; actually opiates didn't even show up on my drugscreen, as it had been 44 hrs since my last percocet and I had weaned myself down to 20-25 mgs/day the whole previous week to make my withdrawals in prep for the Subs easier. However, though I only started w/ 2mgs bupe (aka Subutex), about 45 minutes later and for many more hours, I felt like I was on a morphine drip. I was HIGH. (So anyone that says you can't get high on this, is wrong - or I should say, it depends on the person. Trust me, I was high.) And it wasn't even a very pleasant high like percocets - it quickly became an anxious "when is this going to go away?" kind of high. I had to come home to my family and be high all night - not cool - and my doc WANTED to start me at 4mg (thank God I didn't). He recommended I take another 2mg a couple of hours later, and I'm glad I didn't do that either....or maybe I should've? Not sure. I was just high and nauseated all night. The only good thing was I finally had some energy....yet, I was also sleepy/loopy.
Then when I went to bed about 1:30am, I couldn't sleep until like 5:30am! IT WAS HORRIBBBLLLE. My eyes wanted to sleep so badly, but my anxious brain wouldn't let go. My face started twitching, my heart was pounding, my thoughts racing. I laid there for 4 HRS, almost dozing off 1000 times, but never really dozing off. I ended up taking a small dose each of Clonidine and Xanax (doc said it was ok in small doses), and I think that's how I finally went to sleep.
Honestly I've been anxious about how the Subs will feel the whole time, so was it actually the medication, or my anxiety, that triggered this sleepless night? I don't have any idea. But let me just say that this morning I did NOT want to take my next dose. Called my doc and he suggested I may be sensitive to the bupe and to take just a small piece. So I took about a 0.5mg piece at noon today (my second dose, down from the 2mg initial dose yesterday). I have not felt as loopy today as I did yesterday, but I certainly felt doped up for a few hours. It seems to have worn off now (6 hrs later) and I should probably be taking another dose. But SHOULD I take another dose when I hate it this much? I know this is called the "induction phase" for a reason, and it could change. But I feel way too doped up, even on small doses, to be like this all the time around my children and function. I mean at least with the percocet, I had control over when I was high and I knew it would only last a short while. I feel completely helpless with the Subs. I don't think I want to take it anymore, I feel like I could just go back to weaning off the percs like I was before, and probably be ok. Only problem is, I don't know if I would relapse, and I know the Subs would help prevent that. But damnit, I don't think I can tough the Subs out. If I have another night like I did last night I'm afraid I will lose my mind!!! (And of course, I can't take a nice big dose of Xanax before bed or my usual Ambien to help me sleep - ugh, I didn't know that either before I signed up for this program.)
So I guess my questions are:
1) Should I have even started the buprenorphine in the first place, when I was down to such a low dose of percs already?
2) Am I having a bad reaction to the bupe or is this normal for some people?
3) If this IS normal, when will it go away and I actually feel good??? Because this is NOT the "good/normal" feeling I see people claim Suboxone/Subutex/Bupe makes them feel.
4) Should I stop the bupes? And if I do, should I take another small dose first (like a crumb) or just quit now, since I only had 2 doses anyways?
5) Will I get withdrawals from the bupes, even after only 2 doses?

Please help with anything you can - and thank you in advance! Sorry for such a long post - I'm extremely anxious and so confused about this medication. :(


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:19 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4133
If I were in your situation, I would probably take bup for a few days with ever decreasing amounts. It is normal for some people, especially those who aren't very tolerant to opiates, to feel high at first, and a number of other symptoms.

Here's the real question. If you decide that bup is not the way for you to go, what are you going to do to keep yourself in recovery? Is the fact that your family knows about your addiction going to be enough to keep you from percocet in the future? Percocet was my drug of choice too, but I was taking anywhere from 100 - 140 mg per day. For me, tapering off percs was not an option. I didn't have the willpower to do it. Suboxone made going into recovery much easier for me. I needed an end to those cravings and that's what suboxone gave me.

Have you considered getting vivitrol shots instead of using sub? It's a once a month shot of naltrexone. Here's a link to the website: http://www.vivitrol.com/
It may be that vivitrol is more appropriate for your situation.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:49 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
Hi spditup,

Welcome to the forum!!

What you described sounded like my first day on Suboxone. I took 16mg and felt exactly like you did. I was high as a kite and could not sleep at all the first night. 16mg was way more than I needed, but being the good addict that I am, I kept on taking 16mg and ended up driving my tolerance up sky high.

I'm pretty sure, based on your Perc habit, that "normal" amounts of Subutex are going to hit you fairly hard. If you're using the strips, you can try cutting the strip into .5mg pieces and see how that goes, or cut them even smaller if you want.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:43 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:24 pm
Posts: 14
Thanks for the responses.
I ended up not taking the subutex again at all, waited 36 hours and then took a small dose of percocet. I've been taking these small doses every day since, convincing myself and everyone else that I'm just taking them to help the withdrawals (that were probably overwith by the time I stopped the subutex, in reality) and that I'm "weaning" myself. A family member holds my percocet for me and he has been giving me small daily doses to wean me. Problem is, I don't think it's helping, it may even be hurting, as I still want more doses. I can't lie, I love my percs. I look forward to my next dose all day. I can't imagine not ever touching it again and feeling OK or even happy. So I suppose going back to it was just a stupid thing when I was so close to being done. Now I'm totally disappointed in myself, yet still want my high. Plus my Doctor said if he finds out I went back to the perc, I can't go back to him anymore, and he was very disappointed in me when I told him this was the route I was thinking of choosing to wean myself.
So here I am back to wanting my DOC, and knowing the only way I'm probably going to be able to stay clear of it is to be on the Subutex. But at the same time, the Subutex was very scary to me, made me way too doped up, and I remember all I wanted when I was on it was to be OFF of it. I felt afraid like I was going to be totally doped up all day long for the next month or whatever, lacking sleep, nodding off during the day with my 2 year old here, and no way I could take care of my family like that....the Subutex wasn't feasible. But I honestly don't know if I can recover on my own by weaning off the percs, I think the craving will always be there to help me "deal" with life. So now, I really don't know what to do. :( The Subutex just made me want a normal clear brain...and then here I am a few days later wanting the perc brain. :roll:
Any suggestions for breaking this cycle, with or without the Subutex, still greatly appreciated.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:14 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1454
Sorry you're having troubles, I feel for you.

How much oxy are you allotted in a day, at this time? Just trying to gauge where you're at. Tapering of SOAs is pretty hard. Because the dose gives you such a pleasure reward and wears off so quickly, it's virtually impossible to not obsess about the next dose. That's just how it goes.. There have been a few people to do it, who were adamant about not going on maintenance, but it's rare, and even then, it's about staying clean. You can taper off and stop but the real question is how to keep from reaching for that fix when life gets rough or you just need a boost. That is the million dollar question that I don't know if anyone here can answer which is why most are on maintenance and the ones that aren't, were at some point.

If you decided to not go back on bupe, you need to try and stop thinking about percs as the only way to get through life and start coming to terms with the fact that you're going to have to maneuver on your own, once you're off. It's easier said than done, I know!, but that's the first step. As long as they're in the back of your head as an option, they will haunt you. Have you thought about counseling or recovery meetings? A lot of people jump into recovery treatment. Some say it's the only way, I say it's one way. It may be for you..

If you cannot stop oxy and decide to go back onto buprenorphine, I'd start at .5 and see how that goes. The key with bupe, is that you can always add more. In certain circumstances, where bupe tolerance is low, it is better to titrate up to a point where you feel even.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:19 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:24 pm
Posts: 14
I've been taking 2 doses of percocet a day, 7.5mg and 10mg, on average for a few days. Tomorrow I'll take 5mg and 5mg (or if I feel like getting a TINY bit of "high" feeling in the morning, which I probably will, I'll end up taking one dose of 10mg that I have been given for the day, and wishing I had more later). Then the next few days I'm supposed to take 5mgs once each day, and then nothing. I am supposed to be finished in about a week. But, I KNOW it won't be enough for me, I'll be craving more tomorrow and every day on and when I'm supposed to be finished, I'll crave it bad then, too. Right now I want to take the Subutex again pronto, even though I hated it, just to get rid of the cravings and restlessness I feel between doses of perc. This weaning thing IS darn near impossible. But honestly...they BOTH suck (weaning AND the Subs), IMO! *Kicking myself for getting into this position* :x
I agree with you, tinydancer, about needing to get perc off my mind, and I've been thinking the same thing - what am I gonna do to relearn how to live, to make life livable again without pills as a backup? I've still got the devil on one shoulder saying, "why can't I just take oxy forever, just one dose in the morning and one at night to keep me going, what's the big deal?! It's better than starting this new drug! (Subutex)" I know that's wrong, but it's still in back of my mind. And unfortunately, I've got marital problems that make EVERY day hard to look at soberly, just being depressed about being stuck in a bad situation. I know that problems with my spouse make me want to use, and it will be that way until we get some counseling, which we hope to do some day. In the mean time, Subutex might still be helpful to quit pill popping patterns and cravings...right?...if I can just deal with the side effects.
Anyway, I think I'm going to try the Subs again this weekend, when my husband is home to help out with the kids in case I get "loopy" like before - but this time start at such a tiny dose it will be like a crumb. Last time, my second and final dose was .5mg and it still doped me up, so this time I'll try half of that - .25mg. It seems like nothing compared to what others are on! But everyone (including my dr.) also seems to say "start slow, only take what you need for withdrawals", so that is what I'll try this time...no more 2mg starts, that was hell. And so that means tomorrow (Thursday) morning would have to be my last perc I believe, so I can start back on the Subs Saturday morning. Ugh, and here I go again....second time around already....what a lovely merry-go-round of addiction. :|


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:37 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1454
"why can't I just take oxy forever, just one dose in the morning and one at night to keep me going, what's the big deal?! It's better than starting this new drug! (Subutex)"

In one word? Tolerance. Shortly that one oxy dose in the AM & PM will increase.. double, triple, and so on. It's just fact. The more you raise your tolerance, the more you need just to feel normal. And we're never satisfied with just feeling normal, we always want to feel good.. better than normal. So then you chip a little more (and so it goes.)

The reason why sub works is that when you do find the right dose, you don't build a tolerance to it. You stop obsessing about your next dose. You forget what it feels like to have your life revolving around pills 24/7. It's peaceful, and when you're an addict, peace is priceless.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:59 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:24 pm
Posts: 14
Yes, tolerance is the word. Trust me, I've been down that road already. At the start, I used to wake up and take a measly 7.5mg of perc and feel pretty good. Now I have to double that to feel anything semi-good, and of course I don't wanna wait until night time to take my next dose, but when I do take my next dose in the day, I have to increase it a little higher than the previous dose to feel it every time. And what made me want to quit them all together as of late, is the fact that they don't even make me feel "good" anymore (besides that first morning dose I love), but that I just need them to feel "level/normal", and a lot more of them. So yeah, I get ya, tolerance is an obvious reason why we can't take pills like that forever. Damn tolerance! But, of course there are other reasons as well. I just WISH it was that easy to take them forever. Basically I wish antidepressants felt more like opiates...boy that would be awesome. My antidepressants feel nothing like my percs of course.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure I'm starting the subs again Saturday, as apparently I haven't got my mind convinced I can quit this crap on my own. I'll be back to share how that goes, I'm sure...wish me luck, I'm still a little freaked. I don't think my addiction is that bad anymore, I've cut way down on percs, and my withdrawals won't be that bad, so the main reason I'll be taking the Subs is just to keep the percs and cravings away until I retrain my brain (a month max...maybe? I hope)...IF I can tolerate the Subs this time.

Thanks everyone for responding!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:45 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: West Tennessee
Hey Spditup,

How did the weekend go? I'm just curious if you tried the subs again or if you are sticking with the perc taper. Give us an update K?

Q

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:48 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1544
Yes-- I'm curious how things have worked out too.

This is a somewhat common dilemma. It does not seem right, pushing a person's tolerance higher with buprenorphine. But when I think about the people who have come to me over the years with this problem, they all eventually ended up on higher doses of oxycodone-- or heroin.

I notice how often people say the same thing: that 'you would be better off just tapering off the agonist, instead of going on Suboxone.' I hear about doctors saying that type of thing to patients too.... MY thought in response-- you think there is a CHOICE? If any of us were able to simply stop taking opioids-- the GOOD idea---- then none of us would be spending time on an addiction forum!

As a doc, the frustrating thing is that if I try to explain this to a patient, and talk that patient into Suboxone, I know that the patient will eventually blame ME for an 'addiction to Suboxone.' Once on Suboxone, some people seem to remember their addiction as some sort of 'choice' they made; that one choice was just stopping everything, but the darn doctor got them hooked on Suboxone instead. So if people come to me with an attitude that 'I don't know if I should go on Suboxone', I give them back the money they paid and ask them to come back if/when they need help.

Horsegal, if you were able to stop percs, that's great. The next challenge is to never pick them up again-- even if you are going through the 'stress of a lifetime' and it seems reasonable to take just one-- just this once. we all have been in THAT place too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:15 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Northern CA
I just wanted to add my two cents here:

Tolerance is unavoidable and just like any other drug, use becomes you chasing the feeling but never getting there again no matter what. When I first began using it wasn't everyday, my tolerance stayed low, and I was able to keep that up for months at a time until inevitably tolerance does happen, or you try the next step up like Vicodin to Norco to Perc to Oxy, etc. It might takes years but that snowballs and will catch up to you.. For me, I went from a casual Norco or Perc user to a heroin addict without a pot to piss in and not one family member who could help me in a span of about 10 years.

I guess my point is, there is no such thing as 'maintenance' agonist use like taking some Percs at morning and night. Maybe you can handle it for months or years, but it's like playing with fire and it will burn you eventually. Then you end up in a place you would never in a million years could have imagined you'd be.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:59 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: West Tennessee
suboxdoc wrote:


Horsegal, if you were able to stop percs, that's great. The next challenge is to never pick them up again-- even if you are going through the 'stress of a lifetime' and it seems reasonable to take just one-- just this once. we all have been in THAT place too.


Oh no Dr. J...I couldn't stop taking the percs. That's why I went into treatment. Maybe there was some confusion here. :oops:
I was only asking what the OP's final decision was.
I agree that in "the perfect world" it would be best to taper and stop the SAO's. Unfortunately, most of us just can't do it that way. I tried NUMEROUS times...and failed miserably EVERY SINGLE TIME!

I find it interesting to hear, from a doctors perspective, about those patients who claim their doctors pushed them into suboxone treatment. We do see alot of that here from the anti-suboxone crowd. I know there are alot of doctors prescribing subs that aren't as informed as they should be. I have personally known a couple. But I find it hard to believe that many doctors would intentionally push patients into treatment with buprenorphine knowing that they don't need it. I have a little more faith in the medical community than that. Of course, there are always those bad apples that ruin the reputation of the whole...but I would like to believe they are the exception and not the rule.

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group