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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:56 pm 
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without too much detail, I'm coming off of 85 mg methadone that I've been on about 8 yrs. I know everyone feels the 100 year taper is best, but that is impossible right now. My doctor's instructions are to just stop the methadone at my current dose (85mg) then to wait until The first WD symptoms start - like for me, the Extreme Dreaded Energy Crash of Day 3 - and then to start SUBUTEX, up to three 8 mg tabs a day. He prescribed enough subutex for two weeks, and that it will keep me fairly comfy while my body waits out the methadone half life. Then I will switch to SUBOXONE, which we will taper when the time is right. I know all the dangers of Bupe w/o the naltrexone, but I've no intention to snort it, or bang it, or do the ole' 10-Xanax-and-half-a-bottle-Cuervo-chaser for extra added special effects. I'm done with this stuff, I want off. This is my plan, the doc thinks it's doable if I follow his instructions.

A major problem for me is that I need to do all this while also "keeping up appearances"...as any good, high functioning addict will understand. I have to work, and be around other human beings. If I didn't, I'd just wait out the 4 days or so of W/d and jump onto the suboxone, but I can't. I am so hopeful that this will work for me - but of course, I can't stay off the internet, and though I thought the switch starting with subutex would be fairly easy compared to having to switch directly to suboxone, I am reading horror stories about switches using BOTH. But if subutex doesn't have the naltrexone, why would it throw me into WD hell? I know that it won't be easy, waiting for all the M to leave my system - and I am prepared for that.... but I really don't know what to believe based on what I am reading and hearing. I hear doctors saying that getting off high doses of M can be done with shorter acting opiates, or subutex. I hear many of those who've done it saying it was easy. But there are also a lot of bad experiences being told....could it be some of these people are talking about switching to suboxone too soon, and are accidentally wrongly calling it subutex because the names sound so similar? Or am I up for a big surprise? I want to believe my doctor, who thinks I won't have any problems...but dang, I am SCARED.

Anyway, in my online frenzied search for spiritual comfort, I found this forum, and am in great hope that I will be able to not only gain strength knowing I am not alone...but also that I will hear it straight from the horses mouth. So....anyone here done this this way? I know many Drs won't prescribe subutex, except for pregnant women or in cases like mine...but I'm hoping someone here will know something. Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:29 am 
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Hello Laff, welcome and all good questions.
We know that the only active ingredient in both subutex and suboxone is Buprenorphine. They are the same med.The naloxone was put in suboxone as a block for iv users. There is more to it such as marketing and such...

But the bottem line is there is really no difference in the two.

The best thing is to get your methadone tolerance down to 30mgs or lower. Then you would have no problem or suffer precipitated withdrawals.

Yes, you could go with a shorter acting opiate for a few days to give the methadone halflife time to leave your system. That may be the best option if it isnt possible for you to do a louger meth taper. I say this with caution. ...

Your the 3rd or 4th methadone to sub switch person to come aloug just this week..

Ive never done the switch myself. Im no dr, but my understanding of Buprenorphine is there is no difference in the two products.

Id suggest doing a subsearch over in Dr Junigs Talkzone. It can be found at the top of the forum page. Many blog posts from him can help you.
I understand your fears of wd. And I would ask your dr again just how he knows his plan will work, at least tell him your fears an questions. He is your dr.

In the end you will be ok. And 85mgs should leave your system in a few days an then on to sub. I hope bumping up will bring in a few more replys for you.

Ive been on sub the last 4years and it was a great move for me.

Razor57...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:04 am 
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Everything Razor said is true!
I was on Methadone 4 years, but you can't just switch to Subutex from Methadone. You really need to go to a shorter acting opiate first to give yourself time to get the amount of Methadone in your body down. Methadone is stored in your fat cells and it takes awhile to get it out. Most Methadone clinics recommend you get down to 30 mgs a day as Razor said. I switch at about 15mgs a day of Methadone and had no problems at all. Not even the first symptom. I have to leave now, but will be back later to answer your questions if anyone on the forum can't answer. I recommend you read Dr. Junics material on Methadone and visit his website. I think it is suboxdoc on youtube but I could be wrong.
Welcome to the forum!
Happy
P.S.
And don't believe all the horror stories you read!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:51 am 
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Oh god, this is a nightmare I just can't wake from. I can't do the taper. The best I can do is after my last full dose, I can split a take home dose, maybe do two days at 35mgs or so. Then I have about 7 or 8 percocets. I also have lots of neurontin (gabapentin), 6 clonidine, flexoril, tramadol, and tons of Motrin. My mom has nerve pain and a few other issues, so all this stuff was easy to find. I may be able to get one or two Xanax if I try.

I am beginning to think my doctor doesn't know what he is doing and that is scary. Maybe I should have known better. An all cash type who saw me right away, barely waited one day.

I am scared to death, guys. Not even so much of being sick for a few days...I think I am afraid something is going to go wrong and I'm going to die, or at the very least wind up in the hospital.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:31 am 
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Laffer,
You and I are in the same boat my friend except im coming off of 150mgs of Methadone and your right its a bit scary actually very scary reading all the different horror stories online, im sure we have read the same ones even, but I am ready to do it as I know you are. My doc has me doing the same thing you are doing, stay off the Methadone until I start to withdrawal, start the subutex and stay on that for 10 days then transfer over to Suboxone. Why they have us on Subutex first I have no idea, its the Bup that will cause us to get sick in our case not the Nap but what do I know, I am just as knew at this as you are. As Far taking shorter acting opioid, I wouldn't. All its going to do is prolong the process. Everyone is different but I can tell you I started to feel lousy on day 4 but really hit on day 5. Feel free to PM me if you would like. Everyone on here has been great so far. BTW one of the best pieces of advice I have been given on here and I strongly suggest you do the same is when you do start your induction, start at 1mg and go from there definitely not at what they prescribed us to do by taking 8mgs all at once.
Blue


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:39 pm 
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Thanks to everyone who has replied...and Blue, I was reading your posts this week. Appears we ARE in the same boat.

Maybe I am over stressing myself, reading too much, imagining all the worst possibilities. For sure I have a few days of discomfort ahead of me....but, isn't it safe to say that once I am really into WD, and score where they want me to be on the COWS scale, then I can take the subutex safely...starting w/ 1 mg as Blue suggested, which makes sense.

Of course I will still feel like crap because my little brain is used to a certain amt of M, it's not going to be happy on the bupe, because it will be equal to about 30 mgs methadone in feeling. But at least I won't be physically as bad, I'll be able to work and all. For me, the mental part has always been the worst part - but, this is the price I have to pay, the toll for this stretch of the road to being clean.

Again, thanks so much Happy, Razor, and Blue!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:56 pm 
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Guys, the best thing you can do, is use the COWS, and decide when to switch over. You might start at 1 or 2mgs, but end up needing all 8 or all 16mg to feel right. Be glad you got it.
Just sayin'.
You will both be fine.
Just don't start snortin' the damn things!
Because that's what you both will end up doing.
Been there, done that, liked it,
and 16 years later, "here I am."
You're "just like me", my sons. lol
You guys will be fine.
Happy


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:36 pm 
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Unfortunately, I think that many doctors think it's the naloxone that creates the PWs when it's actually the buprenorphine. Bupe is a partial agonist, meaning that its action at the opiate receptor sites in the brain aren't as strong as a full agonist like methadone. At the same time, the bupe molecules hold stronger to the opiate receptors than the full agonist does. So if both methadone and bupe are in your system, the bupe is going to occupy those receptors so that the methadone can't. But the bupe binding to the receptors is going to be weaker than what your brain is used to. Does that make sense?

I actually don't see a problem with going on a shorter acting, full agonist while the methadone is slowly eliminated from your body. It's not like you are tapering to get off sub (which stretches out the detox process). You're just trying to get by until that longer acting methadone is out of your system. If you can get your doctor to prescribe some morphine or something similar for a couple/few weeks, only take the bare minimum amount that you can stand without going into withdrawal. Then you should be ready for the bupe induction. I'm not a doctor, though. If Dr. Junig looks in on this post maybe he can make any corrections necessary. I hope you find this ordeal much less scary than you originally thought. :)

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:44 am 
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Amy,
Your last post was extremely helpful but brought one question to mind and I going to try and ask this without confusing everyone. You stated,"So if both methadone and bupe are in your system, the bupe is going to occupy those receptors so that the methadone can't".
From what I have read and been told Methadone doesn't necessarily have to be out of your system although that would be ideal however one can start their induction w say 25-30mgs of Methadone in their system. If I start my induction w 1mg of Suboxone and start to feel sick, how would I know if I am having PW's or that the Bupe has just kicked out that 30mgs of methadone I had in my system and my body is just requiring another mg or 2 of Suboxone to get stabilized?
This is truly a tricky medication. I know I am driving some people crazy here but I am just trying to cover all my basis. Thank you much!

Blue


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:54 am 
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Blue, the way I understand it, yes, you can start sub with 35-40 mg of methadone in your system - but you still have to wait a few days and be in at least partial WD. Probably even more time should go by for people like us, who have been on higher doses of methadone for the long term. If you don't wait, then it's pretty much for sure that 1 mg of subs is gonna make you really sick. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong. Tell ya what, let's try it. You go first. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:10 am 
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HAHA....Im a true a gentlemen, ladies first! Thank you though.

I have been doing pretty good over here so I plan on either starting my induction either tomorrow morning or Monday evening. All depends on how I feel, if I can wait I am going to try and stretch it out to Monday though. I have no problem taking one for the team :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:16 pm 
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You 2 are funny,
You go first, no you go first. No, ladies first! LMAO.
You aren't gonna get sick taking just 1 mg. Believe me! Or should you believe me? lol


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:56 pm 
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oh, it feels good to laugh...but 10 minutes ago I was crying. My emotions are all over the place. And I am on my 85mg methadone dose today, so I should be fine....

I go from one minute feeling positive, and the next wanting to throw myself off a bridge. I'll be feeling strong, then a moment later I just want to call my "mommy" and tell her everything. How I wish I could, but she wouldn't understand, she is very smug about some things, and drug addicts in her mind are stupid, weak, immoral. If I told her, she'd be pissed...and judgmental - and embarrassed to have an addict daughter. But mostly she'd be upset, and worried for me, and I don't want to put her under that kind of stress. I've done enuff to her in my life. She has been good to me - and she thinks all my drug problems are in the past. If I can get thru this without her knowing, it would be better.

I think half of the nightmare for me with all this is not having anyone find out - work, family, etc.


Blue, I'm keeping you in my thoughts. Let me know how you are doing. I hope Happyg is right about you not getting sick on the 1 mg.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:17 pm 
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You won't get sick on 1 or 2 mgs. My Dr. told me that yesterday.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:47 am 
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My doctor told me to take a whole 8 mgs before I even really start having any major WD symptoms...to just pop one in there as soon as I start feeling that yucky energy crash that we all know is just the beginning...and that I should feel just fine.

I hope your doctor is smarter than mine appears to be.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:45 am 
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The reason I have been told to start at 1mg and work my way up every hour is just in case we are not quit ready PW shouldn't linger for more than an hour or so and that's comibg from both razor and happy.2 people i am extremly confident in. I plan on starting when I wake up Sunday morning, hence why I can't sleep too good right now, just a tad nervous. Plus Happy has been right there for me everyday since I came on this forum and helped call every shot for me in the last week so if there is anyones word i am truly confident in, its his.

sorry to hear about yiur mom, sounds like my dad. When I told him I had a pill problem years back when I was 19 ill never forget, we were sitting down and he just put his head in his hands and said I never thought I would have a son who is a drug addict. His whole philosophy is, oh you have a problem, ok so just quit. Needless to say that was my last "drug" conversation w my dad. Thank God I have an understanding mother that I can tell anything to and understands and at least attempted to to read and inform her self on addiction as much as she can. But even like yiur mother, she thinks I'm doing good right now, not even taking methadone. Last i want to do is break her heart her again, I think i have done enough of that. So yes if we could get through this w out FAM and work knowing that would be wonderful.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:22 am 
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Are you both ready to make the switch today?
Laffer, I want to apologize to you, I thought you were a man. Hell, I thought Blue was a woman! lol
I just can't get anything right! lol


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:41 am 
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Blue & Laffer

I know Laffer wants to keep up appearances but there is nothing wrong with "getting that damn summer virus that's going around". In my area people are truly getting some bug that lasts from 24 hours-5 days. Also going around is that summer cold with a runny nose. Hopefully there are sick days to use if necessary but just for family you can say you got the bug, flu, virus, whatever.

Just wanted to offer an explanation (an out) for those family or co-workers you don't want to know.

My son was able to come to me with his addiction issues. It broke my heart but i was supportive and did everything i could to help him (rehabs, detox, bail etc). I just didn't understand addiction. I thought he could stop and be his old self. I got addicted later in life and sometimes i think it is good because i understand how he suffered trying to stay off dope but the pull was to strong. Now is he doing very well on sub, it truly saved his life.

Razor and Happy are very good people in your corner! Good Luck today! It's going to work out fine!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:54 am 
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HAHA.....Happy definitely got that part wrong,LOL

Tiki,
That is very true, thank you. Wow all the lying I have done in my addiction and I couldn't even come up w coming down w the flu for a few days. This switch has really consumed me.
You sound like a terrific Mother.



I was expecting a bigger strip, rather hard to divide up n ⅛. Well I ended up just taking 2 mg 10 minutes ago and havent been able to stop looking at my watch waiting for the time to pass to let me know I'm in the clear. I shall let you guys know asap.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:45 am 
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A little over an hour has gone by and I feel ok Thank God!
I wasn't exactly in WD this morning I was just tired of waiting so with that said I'm going to stay put at 2 mgs for now and see how the day goes.


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