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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:38 pm 
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happyg1961 wrote:
Are you both ready to make the switch today?
Laffer, I want to apologize to you, I thought you were a man. Hell, I thought Blue was a woman! lol
I just can't get anything right! lol

I'm not. I had to wait till I could take a few days off this week. Today is my last methadone dose, I split a take home...so 40 mgs today. I just have to get thru 2 more days work....I'm off on Tuesday, then plan on getting that "summer bug that lasts 5 days" and can call out on weds, Thursday, Friday - and I have the weekend off.

I am hoping to not suffer too much, I've got clonidine and gabapentin, but only a few benzos --with any luck, by Saturday or Sunday, I might be able to try the subutex. I just can't stop looking for switch over stories, and there are so many bad ones. Then I'm afraid that because of my high methadone dose, and the time I've been on it, that this drug won't work for me. If the highest effect of subs only equals about 30 mg of methadone, I may be in for a world of hurtin' for a long time. I don't want to go limping back to the clinic.

Funny, so much of this is mental. I already feel sick, have felt lousy for the past 3 days, even on a full methadone dose.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:26 pm 
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Where are you getting that Suboxone equals 30 mgs of Methadone???
1 mg of Suboxone equals 30 mgs of Methadone. 8mg strip or pill equals 160 mgs of Methadone.
I thought I would clear that up!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:52 pm 
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It doesn't really work that way, Happy, because suboxone is a partial agonist and has a ceiling level. I'll try to find the article that explains it. :)

Here's one link: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/methadone-t ... onversion/

It's kind of sciencey so it might be kind of difficult to understand.

Here's a visual representation: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/ceilings/ceiling-effect/

Here's one more: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/ceilings/

I hope this helps.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Thank you Amy.This why I continue to push Dr Junigs blog posts.And or the Users Guide to Suboxone.
I believe in his facts.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:52 pm 
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I switched from methadone to sub many moons ago. I was taking about the same dose as you, OP, and rushed it. Ended up in full blown PWDs, but even then, it was the best thing I ever did. I have never been able to do a 100 year taper. Lol I'm more of a rip the fucking band aid off, kind of person myself. I was about 24 hours off methadone, the last two days on methadone were about half dose.. Around 30-40mgs. I can't remember now. And I took a whole sub. It wasn't pretty. Anyway, that's what I did. The PWDs hit immediately wishing 30 mins or so.

F you've taken 1mg are are doing ok, Id gradually take more. Waiting as long as you can between doses just to play it safe. Just in case it's a fluke, and the 1mg, wasn't enough to throw you into WDs, only take little bits at a time, like 2mgs, rather than a whole strip/tab.

Let's us know how it goes. I'll be watching! May the force be with you!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:56 pm 
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WAIT! Did you take methadone today? You need to not take methadone for a few days before taking sub. Do not even think about taking 1mg if you've taken methadone today. That's stupid.

I'm in the car and trying to read without getting car sick.. I'm not entirely sure if you've taken 1mg yet or not.


ETA: ok, caught up. I see that you've planned a few days without mdone before taking subs. Also, the gabapentin is incredible for easing w/ds. I used it to get off suboxone and it helped big time, in the sleep department.

Also, everything Amy has posted is spot on.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:38 am 
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Tiny dancer, I took approx 60 mgs methadone today, have 20 mgs for tomorrow which will get me thru work just barely. After that 20 mgs, there's no more, and there won't be, unless I chicken out and drag my sorry ass back to the clinic. Now I'm not in WD yet, so can't say how I'll feel when I am - at that point, the clinic may look like the most beautiful place I've ever seen - but the way I feel right now, I'd rather have my eyeballs gouged out with an ice pick than go back to that godforsaken hell hole.

My plan is to maybe take a few percocets if I have to go back to work on Wednesday (I have Tuesday off) but I am going to try to play sick and at least call out Thursday and Friday, plus I have the weekend off, so I'll be clear till Monday. Sunday will be day 6 with no methadone. I have no idea what to expect, but I know I won't be feeling too good. I'm hoping I can do the cross over on Saturday.

How did you feel after you switched? I know it's going to be tough, but considering you were on a similar dose as me, I'd love to hear how it was for you.

I was so depressed when I woke up this morning, I couldn't even get up. I laid there until 2 pm, then I had no choice, I had to drag myself to work....right now I feel pretty good, though. Tomorrow, who knows!

Oh, and Amy, I liked Happy's answer better than yours about how bupe compares to 30 mgs methadone! I read his post and it was like the sun started shining and the birds started singing, the heavens opened up to me and all was right with the world...then you posted. Doom and gloom. Business as usual. (((Huge sigh)))

I wonder how Blue is doing?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:19 am 
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Laffer,
Amy is technically right about the affects of Subs being equal to 30mgs of Methadone. By her way 24mgs =30mgs of Methadone too. Called "ceiling affect" which is 4mgs of Subs that also=30mgs of Methadone. Kind of confusing ain't it.
I am talking about filling the rest of your receptors up which is = to more Methadone.
4mgs of Subs only fill 41 -47% of receptors
16mgs of Sub fills up to 92% of receptors. That's why the Dr. will prescribe 16mgs of Sub at Induction. You are trying home induction which makes things a little more tricky.
I promise you, there is plenty of Medicine in Subs to keep you happy and laffing till you are Blue in the face! LOL
If there was only enough medicine in Subs to equal that low of an amount of Methadone, nobody would switch to Subs because they would think they would not get any relief and it would be a waste of time.
As I said, Amy is technically right, but the "way" the information is put out there is flawed. (not Amys fault) It's misleading. 1mg=30mgs and 4mgs=30mgs and 16mgs=30mgs and 24mgs =30mgs.
See my point!
Happy


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Ah ha. I see now. Never was much good at science. And you are so right, 30 mgs methadone is nothing for an addict that is accustomed to a stronger effect. that same effect from subs would be useless in the beginning. Why do they insist on you being down to 30mg methadone, though, is it just to make it easier to switch over, ie less WD?

I am feeling good today, considering not even bothering with my last 20 mg dose. I have to go to work, but I guess I can take it with me in case I need it...or take a few percocets or whatever. But then I'll have to pour it down the drain, cause I don't trust myself to have it when I start to feel really sick. I am just hoping that by the end of next weekend I will have enuff of this crap out of my system to start the subs. Saturday will be day 5, or 144 hrs. without methadone. If I do take any other opiates (Percocet, etc) hopefully I will only do that tonight and maybe tomorrow morning. I'm going to try to do yoga, meditate, and just listen and be aware of what my body is going through. I'm not going to die, just going to feel like it for a while. Wouldn't be the first time I spent the night with my head on the toilet seat. And I know it isn't so much the time without, it's the level of WD....but surely 144 hrs will be long enough. It's 26 on the COWS scale, just to be sure, right?

And thanks everyone, for all your advice and support. It's been very helpful and reassuring.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:53 pm 
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I am not sure about the COWS system. But other members know more about that. But yes the clinics want you at under 30mgs to make the transition easy.
The problem with Methadone is the long half-life. (close to Suboxones half-life.)
But don't get discouraged. Once you get switched over you will be fine and like I said there is plenty of medicine in Suboxone to make you a happy-camper again! Don't listen to all the fearmongering!



Oh, and thanks "tiny dancer" for coming aboard to help with these Methadone issues!
And of course, thanks Amy and Razor for all your help with the facts and the links!
This stuff really gets confusing,
Happy


P.S. I like debating these issues, not arguing these issues.
So let's debate! lol
I am back to my old self now!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:11 am 
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oops double post


Last edited by Laffertyk on Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:12 am 
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Well, 34 hours since my last Methadone dose. Day One. I made it thru the day, and night. Symptoms were sweating, LOTS of sweating, and damp clammy skin. I also had trouble focusing at work, had to stop and think about what I was doing, kept losing my train of thought, and my back kind of aches, but nothing horrible. Actually, I feel pretty good....like my eyes are open wider and everything looks brighter, more clear. Physically, I mean. Mentally I feel "too straight". Wide awake. Like I could stay up all night and clean my house.....nah, scratch that. I'll just curl up with the dogs and watch YouTube videos, the more mindless the better...and NO methadone detox videos....until I fall asleep. I'm off tomorrow, plan on going to the store in the morning to stock up on some of the things I might need later this week.

I'm actually surprised I feel so good. Maybe it's just because I know I am on the road now, that ive finally made a decision to do something. I'm still worried that a full week won't be long enough for me to go into WD after all my years on the Big M. Or that I'll feel soooo bad that I won't be able to pull this off.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:50 pm 
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2 pm day 2. Still in bed, but I did get up to make myself some coffee. I didn't fall asleep till 3am. I didn't sleep well, but did sleep 8 hours. woke up frequently, too hot, then too cold, just no getting comfortable. Now I've been awake for 2 hours. I don't feel bad, but I don't feel like doing anything. Seems no point if there isn't that morning dose waiting for me to get me started on my day. I have to see my mom and do some shopping, so I'm considering taking something to give me some incentive.

I was reading about another person here on the forum last night coming off the same methadone dose as I. She tapered down to 10mg in one week, then for several days (5, I think) took Vicodin to keep the WD at bay...then stopped the Vicodin and 24 hrs later started the subs with no problems. She barely had any major WD symptoms. I am thinking the Vicodin was enough to keep her out of WD while the methadone in her system dwindled away. But I am wondering - will another opiate delay WD in general, or will it just mask the symptoms of the methadone Leaving the body. I don't want to take any other opiates if they are just going to delay the time it takes for me to go into WD from the M. Masking the WD, hell, I'm all for that...but delay? No. I want this done. This week. I can't afford to miss any more work. I am ready to pay the price of the 12-24 hours of WD hell. But I feel too good now to even imagine it is going to hit me. I may just go to work tomorrow night if I still feel this way.

Then, I read another story about a guy (methadone to subs) in a hotel room who didn't have the same luck. Very sick. By the end of the thread his posts stopped and he just...disappeared. There was an ominous post from someone here who said "see? This why they tell you to get down to 30 mgs of M. He was at too high a dose to switch"

My lower back is a little achey. And I'm cranky. Time to get up and start day 2.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:44 pm 
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End of Day 2. I wound up taking some shorter acting opiate this morning to motivate me to get moving, otherwise, I don't think I'd have gotten up. Saw my mom, told her I felt like I was getting a cold or something. She bought it. Went to the store, got fruit and easy to prepare food, tea and cereal and bottled water, all the basics that I won't feel like running out for later this week. Not sure why but I bought 2 cans of Spahgettios. Got some stuff I'll need for my pets, a few last comfort items, and got my subs script filled. (Pharmacist didn't bat an eye - barely even looked at me) Came home, did some dishes, changed the sheets, the kitty litter, cleaned the bird cage...all things I'd rather die than do when I really start to feel bad.

I have very little energy. Feel kind of weak, my legs sort of rubbery. My nose is getting runny, but not out of control. I don't feel like eating, or smoking - 2 things I did A LOT of while on methadone. I forced myself to eat something and took some potassium and magnesium. I have some periods of sweating, but not as bad as last night at work...maybe because being at work was so stressful and I couldn't rest when I started to feel out of sorts...I had to keep going and get my work done. I'm trying to drink a lot of water. I'm in bed, but I can't really focus on reading or TV. As bad as I feel, I seem to be super wide awake....when what I'd really like to do is go to sleep right now. I'm yawning a lot, but I know I won't sleep for a long time. It would be soooo nice to just shut my mind off and be gone for a while.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:24 pm 
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Hi Laffert and welcome to the forum!

I noticed that you haven't checked in to give us an update today. How are you holding up? Did you work today?

I hope today went by very quickly for you!

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:51 pm 
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Day 3 started out pretty yucky. Back really hurt when I woke up and continued to do so as the day went on. Laid in bed a lot. My resting heart rate is 100+, blood pressure normal. Feel like I have a flu coming on, congested and slight sort throat, dull headache. General tiredness, low energy, and oh my back....I fucked up, though, I took a flexoril and 15 mg Percocet, then went to sleep this afternoon for about an hour or so, feel better since I woke up. Almost normal. I know I shouldn't have taken the opiates, hope it won't set me back too far.. I don't really understand how this works. I know the Percocet is short acting...but I'm worried now it will delay the methadone WD. The methadone must be leaving my system, though, cause if I took Percocet while I was on my methadone dose, I didn't even feel it. The methadone probably hogs all the receptors.....but today I definitely felt those percocets. I didn't get high, but I felt more normal than I have since Monday.

Anyway, it's 80 hours since my last methadone dose. I can't imagine ever being where I need to be on that cows scale. At this rate, feels like it could be weeks. I think that was my reasoning for taking the pills today, I figured they'd be out of my system in a day and it wouldn't matter because it's taking so long for the methadone to leave anyway, and that I might still be on schedule to hit 26 on COWS this weekend. But now I'm not so sure. I have no faith that I'll get sick. I want to get sick. I can't wait to get sick. And I guess I won't if I don't stop taking the pills I have while I wait this out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:10 pm 
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Hi Laffertyk,
Haha, what a name you came up with! lol
If I remember correctly, you were going to a Methadone clinic. Your dose was 85mgs per day, right?
Were you on weekly takehomes or were you an "everydayer" ?
I think I would have dropped to 50mgs for 2 weeks, 30mgs for 2 weeks and then 20mgs for about 3 days and then wait about 12 to 24 hrs and then switched. Your worst days would have been the few
days at 30mgs and all the days at 20mgs. You would be done and switched over.
You can do it with the short acting opiates too.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:29 pm 
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Happy I was on MONTHLY take homes. They were taken away from me because the head nurse at the clinic needs to F-ing get laid. Well, there's more to it than that....but that's a big part of it. In my defense, I can certainly say they were not taken away for dirty drug tests, because I've been clean since I went on methadone.

Anyway, none of that matters. A taper isn't possible. They want you to taper over a year at a tiny bit at a time and that would require daily visits - an hour and a half round trip to get to the clinic, another hour standing in the long line this place gets, worrying someone will see me, worrying about getting there in our winter weather...I'd rather sell my body on the streets for heroin than go back to standing in that line every day. Seriously. And I can't switch to a shorter acting opiate for a week or so, I only have 4 percocets. That won't be enough.

I'm on day 4 here. I don't feel any better or worse than I did yesterday. I never thought I'd be praying to get sick. Could it be I'm immune to opiate withdrawal? I'm immune to the chicken pox. And poison ivy. I could rub poison ivy all over my body and nothing would happen...maybe THIS is as bad as my WD is going to get. Or maybe it's the measly 15 mg Percocet I took yesterday.

I am kinda sweaty and cold, and my heart rate is 133. My nose is a little runny, but nothing extreme.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:46 pm 
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End of Day 4. 105 hrs since last Methadone dose and I feel GOOD. Best I've felt since Sunday. Nary a stomach or leg cramp in sight. I feel kind of normal. I am eating, I took a long shower. Took the dogs for a walk and sat out in the garden for an hour. Starting to get sleepy. I've taken no drugs of any kind today.

I think I may be an enigma. One of those hardly heard about addicts who can walk away from a 70 mg dose without hardly breaking a sweat.


Last edited by Laffertyk on Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:47 pm 
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This forum isn't so smooth. I keep getting logged off, or get messages saying the page has to reload, or my login gets erased and I have to log in again, or when I try to submit a post, nothing happens for a few minutes...I submit a second time, and then the post goes up twice. Anyone else have this trouble, or could it be my computer?


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