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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:54 pm 
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Dammit I didn't want to post this but I'm going to come clean about the past two days because I don't know what to do. :(


So I went and filled my suboxone Rx after being completely done with it for 44 days. Day 45 (thurs) I got curious...wanted to see if it would act as a real agonist opiate for me after being almost 7weeks without...

I took 1mg Thursday and about 1mg today...yesterday it gave me a lot of energy and I didn't really get an actual opiate high, but definitely felt something. I didn't really like it, and I don't know whyyyyyyy I decided to do it again today. And this is really bad, sorry... today my wonderful addict brain decided to crush it up and snort it. (No opiate high, juat a headache and too much energy prob won't be able to sleep tonight) WTF, fish???! That's not even something I did that often with full agonists back in active addiction days. NO IDEA what happened today...

I'm embarrassed and slightly ashamed of myself. Most of all I am confused and scared yet amazed at how powerful addiction is. Defies all logic.

Now I am completely lost and seeking opinions, no matter how blunt and brutally honest they might be. Here I feel I have several true friends and even if I haven't heard from you, I will take any advice with an open mind at this point.

Is this considered a relapse? A slip? Or was I just trying (unsuccessfully) to have fun? Why would i do this with something i took forever without ever getting high from it or expecting to? And even though sub was not my DOC, and i was taking it as prescribed with no abuse whatsoever for a year and a half... And getting to a point where active addiction was a world behind me... And getting to a point i really didn't like the way i felt on the medication and feeling soooo ready to be done, then going through such a horrible painful ordeal to taper and jump, and then making it through all the wd and the paws and the fatigue and the mind fuck of the whole ordeal...why would I do this? Because I'm an addict, and the addict mind is not rational.

OK so here's the thing. I do NOT want to go back on suboxone. FOR SURE. after making the jump and for all the original reasons I wanted to quit in the first place. I do not want to be dependent again. And even if i was ok with it, I don't have access to a doctor anymore. Care is extremely limited in the area in which I live. For me, this isn't an option. I'm not willing to give up being free of all medication. Especially after a slip up (or whatever this is) with sub of all things. Dammmmmmit. I'm so confused.

So I suppose I should go flush the $150 Rx down the toilet? I don't know why but that seems impulsive... Probably just my addict brain telling me it's a waste of drugs?

I'm not worried about wd again after a couple days. A comedown, maybe. But nothing like I've been through. A few days of being tired or low mood at the worst?

As you that know me are aware, I am in no way anti sub. But for me, I don't think it's something I want to be depending on at this point in my life.

Please help :(


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 8:14 pm 
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Hi tfish....I don't know you but I've been coming here on and off since 2011 trying to get off Subs. Nice to meet you.

You already answered your own questions in your post.

"Should I flush them?" YES
"Is this considered a relapse?" YES

It is the relapse of an addict. Hard to hear and it's hard for me to type as I don't know you and I don't want to come off as judgemental. I'm NOT judging you. Shoot...I got all the way down to 2 mgs last Aug (took me 8 months to get there) and by Nov, I was taking 8 mgs again. Why? Because I like the feeling I get from Subs...I'm perky and energetic :)

But I also know that I need to be off of them and this time I am highly motivated.

I guess the best question is why you decided to sabotage your jump from Subs. Is NA (Narcotics Anon) an option for you?

What's done is done and you've not done any damage if you stop now. You can do it. Heck, I am so jealous of you being off of them!

Good luck on what you decide.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 8:40 pm 
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CA,
THANK YOU!!! even though I haven't "met" you before, I have read a lot of your posts. (I try to read most of what is posted on this forum)

I needed someone to tell me what to do I think. So I took your advice, I flushed my suboxone. It's gone, no more existing in my house once again. Guess I'll have to go back to caffeine for energy like a normal person.

I didn't feel like you were offending me in any way, I was hoping someone would shoot it to me straight, and quickly. So thank you.

I'm hoping that others will continue to weigh in on this, as I have NO IDEA why I would sabotage my jump. It was SO HARD...

so I'm back to square one. Hoping to learn something important from all of this.

As for NA...I suppose it is an option but I have a strong aversion to 12 step meetings mostly because of the religion aspect. I suppose I should think about working some sort of official recovery program though. Or think about getting a counselor maybe?

Currently my recovery program has been (for the past 17 months) rigorous self care, exercise, meditation, self reflection, coming here, educating myself online about addiction on a daily basis... This week I felt myself getting complacent however, and dealt with some really strong opiate nostalgia/cravings earlier this week.

Omg. My stupid headache hurts so bad right now. I can't feel sorry for myself for something self inflicted out of sheer idiocy.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:44 pm 
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Fishy

How did you get a script when you cancelled your sub appt? Did you go back to see your sub doc? Just a little confused here. In NY the script would only be good for 30 days.

I would not have suggested flushing it because what if you end up taking your drug of choice? I would have suggested giving it to someone you trust to hold as a safety net because that addictive voice can get really loud as you see.

There are other recovery sites like SMART recovery or celebrate recovery and many more that are small but very helpful.

So now is the time to plan how you will handle your next visit from your addictive voice...

There is no judgement from me only sadness because that addictive voice is in my head also and you had everything going for you. Damn


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:05 pm 
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My man (lady)!!!! This same thing happened to me last time at nearly the exact same time.... Day 47... I immediately felt guilty and threw the rest out. The next day I felt like a slight hangover but nothing else after and just moved on. However, several months later....you know the story.. You CAN come back from this, but are you willing? If you can't then you gotta weigh your options but if you want to continue a suboxone free life, throw away anything else, dust yourself off, and fight the good fight. It's like the song Eye Of The Tiger. Rising up to the challenge of our rival (addiction). Thought maybe that could make you laugh enough... Also if you don't think its the right time, there is NOTHING wrong with stabilizing on suboxone again. Heck I can't judge you nor can anyone else here!! Keep us updated please


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:25 pm 
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Tiki,
I still had a refill left on my old script. There must not be any law here for 30 days, because I used to go and get a script with refills on it for 2 months after. I only had to see my sub doctor a few times a year. He is done practicing now though. He was a good dude, but I think he dealt with A LOT of shit. One I was there and he told me he can't even keep 100 patients in treatment because he can't find that many people who can stick to the program, aka show up to appointments, piss clean, not call for early refills etc. Small community as well, he said there were tons of reports of people diverting their rx around there too. He was an older gentleman as well, near the end of his career as it was, so I think he was ready to be done.

Anyway.... I don't have anyone I trust to hold the script for me. I've kept my addiction really secret over the years and wouldn't want to burden the two people (husband and mom) with holding onto it. They just don't understand any of it enough to try to explain it to them. If I end up in a situation again, I'm not sure what I will do. There's basically no chance I'll come across my DOC...I changed my #, cut ties with every person i had connections to and then moved away. Got a new job, a new life. I'm pretty confident that if I work hard enough I can do this.

Quiet, what is it about 6-7 weeks after?? Is that like a common thing or just a coincidence that it was that way for both you and me? I am choosing to dust myself off and keep moving forward. Your eye of the tiger reference actually really did make me laugh. Thanks, now I have that song stuck in my head ;)

Definitely know that theres no shame to stabilize back on suboxone again right now but for me, I just CAN'T do it. I can't even imagine having to go through the taper and jump again, it was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through... Even though it makes me feel selfish for saying that, because I've been through some shit!! And this close to being done, I don't want to give up yet, it's too soon. You're right, I can still pick myself back up and come back from this. I suppose if I continue somehow to keep fucking up or if I start to see a pattern, I'll reconsider. But for now.... Eye of the tiger!

I want recovery soooo bad right now like I've wanted it more than ever. I will check out smart recovery, although I won't go to any face to face meetings. I live in a really small town and I don't want to run my career and reputation that I've worked so hard to build up since restarting my life here. Also I don't want to expose myself to anyone who could possibly have a link to the using world. That's why I choose to stay so anonymous.

I hope tomorrow I'll feel better about everything and be able to hopefully think more clearly and get back on track. I'm trying not to over obsess about the slip, while at the same time not trying to minimize it either, and hopefully end up learning something valuable in the process.

I'm very good at beating myself up over every little thing. I've always been extremely hard on myself. This is a huge reason I turned to pills in the first place so many years ago. Just a thought.

Also, do I reset my clean time tomorrow at day one??


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:20 am 
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I don't think your "clean" time is really the point. That's an AA construct and if you're not heavily into meetings then what does it matter? I don't even think it's important whether or not it's a relapse or a slip, although I tend to think of slips as being a couple of days and relapses being a couple weeks or more.

I think you need to go back to your quitting thread and take a look at your posts for the last week and a half. You were starting to get cravings, but you also had perhaps a false sense of bravado going at the same time. I felt like you dismissed a lot of the advice you received, so it wouldn't hurt to read through the advice again.

I think that not telling your husband or mom is a secret cop-out to avoid being accountable to them. We can only hold you accountable to an extent. It would be a lot more real if your family knew.

I read through your thread again and there were times when you seemed to be a little too sure that you knew this wouldn't happen to you. And then there were times when you seemed to have so much momentum with your taper and so much ease that I felt compelled to let others know that their road might be harder.

I'm going to say something about you that may feel uncomfortable, but I only recognize it in you because I am the SAME WAY! I think it's hard for you to stay motivated to do this or anything else major unless you are receiving a lot of positive feedback and reinforcement. Perhaps this slip is just as much about getting some attention as it is about craving. I think many people (including myself) have a hard time sticking with something that is tedious with unseen, internal rewards. I am a person who thrives when given external praise, although I often wish that I didn't need that. I just do. And maybe that has played a part in your slip.

Try to be as honest with yourself as you can. Go back over the advice people gave you about triggers and cravings. This slip is not going to break you, but put the dent in your pride to good use. Use it to figure yourself out.

You don't have to worry about judgment here. Even if I sound harsh, I'm only being tough on you because you need to do some tough thinking. But we are not judging you! None of us are any better than another addict. None of us!!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 8:20 am 
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Quietaddict wrote:
My man (lady)!!!! This same thing happened to me last time at nearly the exact same time.... Day 47... I immediately felt guilty and threw the rest out. The next day I felt like a slight hangover but nothing else after and just moved on. However, several months later....you know the story.. You CAN come back from this, but are you willing? If you can't then you gotta weigh your options but if you want to continue a suboxone free life, throw away anything else, dust yourself off, and fight the good fight. It's like the song Eye Of The Tiger. Rising up to the challenge of our rival (addiction). Thought maybe that could make you laugh enough... Also if you don't think its the right time, there is NOTHING wrong with stabilizing on suboxone again. Heck I can't judge you nor can anyone else here!! Keep us updated please



One of the reasons i feel giving the sub to a "safe" person is i belong to a local group about the drug crisis in our area. I live in a nice middle class area and people of all ages are OD'ing. There are even classes on using Narcan in an emergency situation. Anyway, the statics in this group state that most that pass away have been clean for a period of time & die because they don't realize their tolerance is low..it's really so sad. So my opinion to save a life would be the ability to go on sub or back on sub (without having to wait to get a sub doc appt). It cuts the risk of an OD or loss of life. The woman that started this group lost her son just 2 weeks after he got out of rehab.

So it scares me...


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 10:18 am 
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Horrible fog brain today :( I feel like I can't even think. But no desire to take anymore sub and no cravings for anything else. (Prob because the sub is still in my system doing what it's supposed to do, block cravings)


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 10:30 am 
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Hey Fish :)

Well, this happens and u will push on and keep it moving. U know what....I'm proud of you. I'm proud of u for coming out with the hard truth to be held accountable. Not everyone can do that, but u did. Yes this sucks, but relapse or slip is a very real part of recovery and it can happen at 47 days or 4 yrs. I understand about ur family not understanding, mine is exactly the same way. Talking to them would be about like this......" U took more drugs, after this long??? I thought u were cured, ur gonna have to get some willpower and stop being so selfish". They are old school and don't understand addiction is NOT a personal choice that u should just be able to get over when u get some thick skin. So I get that part because most of my family is like that. Except for my mother, she's my eternal rock.

I wouldn't have tossed the remaining sub, but since ur absolutely sure that u will never be bk on sub again, then there probably isn't any reason to keep it around and tempt ya since u have nobody to hang onto it for u. I'd still count ur days like ya have been except take off the two days ya took ur sub. That is what I'd do anyway. And u didn't really get high, u pretty much just got ya an energy boost lol. I'm not trying to downplay ur slip, it's extremely hard, but it could've been way worse if you'd taken an oxy or something. I know the cravings and low energy had a lot to do with this. That's what always got me too. I think you'd really benefit seeing an addiction counselor. That's exactly what you need imo.

U will get through this, us addicts are pretty tough when we wanna be. Maybe this is what u needed to see that no cravings or energy is worth the disappointment ur feeling right now. I think ur still brave, keep ur head up, this isn't the end of the world.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:06 pm 
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tfish....I'm glad that you did not get a "reward" from the Sub...only a headache. Now, instead of thinking it will make you feel "good"...all you will remember is this lousy headache :)

Proud of you for flushing them...very proud. Now, try and figure out why you sabotaged yourself.

Once I get off Subs, I intend to visit an NA meeting just to see how it goes. As far as the "higher power", I believe they leave that wide open for you to interpet as you wish. If you don't believe in anything else, believe in yourself. I cannot believe you flushed them...I did not know if you would have the strength to do that and you did. GO YOU!!!

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:06 pm 
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This disease is "cunning, baffling and powerful." It was impossible for me to stay clean no matter how much will power I had. I came off opiates and subs many many times and no matter how amazing I felt, I eventually went back every time. What finally helped me stop? In the first several months it was vivitrol injections which blocked my ability to use for 30 days. BUT that could not sustain me long term. I needed a complete change in my thinking and the only way I could have such a change was through a 12 step program. Again, this is just MY experience. Maybe you can stop on your own but most people like us simply cannot. They need long term opiate maintenance or a change in thinking through the 12 steps. I hope you find your way.

As for the question, is this a relapse? No, this was a slip. A relapse occurs after longer term recovery. You were still very very early in your clean time.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:03 pm 
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tfisher,
First off, sorry this happened to you. As I said in a different thread, an "addictive mind" doesn't care about you, it only cares about itself! You would have to put me on a desert island with no trees on it and I would probably still try crushing up seashells if I thought I would get something from it. lol But that's just me. Over the years I have learned myself and what to expect from myself. If I was to quit, I would have to try and forget "drugs" just didn't exist anymore. I wouldn't even be able to come to this website either because it would keep the addictive thoughts in my mind. I would guess that is why you don't hear of that many success stories on here. People have to burn all ties with this. Just like you did deleting your numbers so you didn't have access to any DOC. That is just my opinion.
Did you really flush them??? If you did, that is great! I just couldn't do that. I sat on 3 boxes of Fentenyl 100's for months and then when I seen the right opening, I done every last one of them! (Had surgery) Took me a week to get back on track but luckily I was able to do it. Was that a relapse for me? No, I considered it a wake up call! That addictive mind is still sitting on my shoulder, whispering in my ear! Just let this be a lesson learned and go on with your life. Things will work out the way they are intended too. Use it to your benefit! Forget about it! You didn't ruin anything.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:10 pm 
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Hi there Fish..

It sounds like you're experiencing paws. You went through the acute withdrawal phase and have now stumbled on post acute withdrawal. Learning to live without. Doing this is the $100 Million dollar question.
This obsession is what I was talking about, when I said that society can drive us just as much as our drug of choice. We want to go back to normal. I used for years just to maintain homeostasis. I only really remember the first time I used. I look back and remember never getting that original high. I only remember chasing it. It was not fun anymore, but I was not normal with out using. I see This as the psychological part of addiction you are battling.

You faced the physical part to some extent. There is a void that needs to be filled. You will or I should say we will always default back, unless we can sustain a change in our logic/thinking.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 7:49 pm 
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Thanks to everyone for posting and for the advice and the ideas and for sharing your thoughts.

Trying to stay super busy today to get past this... I'm not sure if maybe it would be best for me to cut all ties to everything and just get on with my life? Interesting thought...


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 11:10 pm 
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Hey chum!

I did the same thing. I have been clean 12 days and felt nearly all withdrawal symptoms fading fast (most completely gone) and I found 3 strips tucked away in my room. I took about half a mg and I was up all night feeling guilty... It didn't make me feel better, if anything it made me nauseous. I decided right then and there that I really really didn't need this drug anymore. Before, when I was prescribed it, I was taking it everyday _not_ because I loved how it made me feel (although it did give me an energy boost some days), but because I was in fear of the withdrawals if I didn't!

Now, however, my brain has realized two things:

1. I don't need to fear withdrawals anymore -- I've gotten through them.

2. The drug doesn't do anything for me anymore since I'm not dependent on them like I was.

Even though I _did_ technically relapse, it was a huge peace of mind to finally realize this and have it click in my brain. I now can get through the day without thinking what it would be like if I had some suboxone. 24 hours later and I don't feel any worse withdrawal symptoms than I did on day 11 -- and keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't get worse.

Our brains are funny things, and I'm interpreting this relapse as a learning occurence... because I know I won't do it again. Keep your head up friend.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 11:19 pm 
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Sub samwich!
Omg crazy that we both just went through the same thing. Thank you for sharing what you learned from the experience. It's been awesome here reading EVERYONE'S two cents, forcing me to do a lot of serious thinking...


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:58 am 
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You know what they say Fishy, "secrets keep ya sick, . I think about some counseling and find a real face to face peer support group to help you along .
If family cant help or there arent trusted friends then maybe a pro or an out of town 12 step group could give you strength.
And as we know, opiate addiction is a life loug chronic relapsing and deadly disease. .


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:44 am 
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Subsandwich....good story and I am proud of you too. As my brain is lifting from the "Sub fog", I sure do miss the perky, energetic me on Subs. I know this is because my brain is freeing up receptors and trying to learn to regulate it's own chemicals again. Whenever, I miss the "Sub energy", I think about how one day, I will be energetic on my OWN DARN BRAIN doing it's own thing again :mrgreen:

You are inspiration to me in my taper. I will remember you and tfish's stories if this ever happens to me someday.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 6:31 pm 
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Sorry to hear what happened but like others I am very glad you told us.

Is this a relapse or a slip? Ya know, I'm not sure it matters as either way you injested a substance you should not. Still, let's get honest and not try to kid ourselves, saying that taking any opiate is just a "slip" is like saying making out with someone who is not your spouse is not cheating. It's also like claiming we are "junior addicts" or minor abusers. A relapse is a relapse just as drug addiction is drug addiction. There are certainly degrees to both. Some addicts are much sicker than others just as some relapses are much worse than others. Either way a relapse is a relapse.

Like Amy stated (I get more impressed with her everyday - look out Qhorse you have competition for the top slot on my list. LOL) there are other things going on that are just as concerning. Among them is, it was Bup this time that you used to relapse. It didn't do much for you. So, is oxy next? And don't kid yourself - it well could be. I also share Amy's concern with you not coming clean to family.

What amazes me most is how so many people focus on staying or getting off of Bup. That's not where the focus should be. It should be on staying clean. If asked how they plan to get off Bup they often list the steps they intend to follow. But if asked the steps they plan to take in staying clean they have few or none. I'm sorry Fish but it's almost like asking how could you not have relapsed? You are nearly setup for it. No accountability to family or friends. No ongoing plan, 12-step or otherwise. Nearly a positive indifference that relapse is not a real possibility. It sort of shoots off relapse warning flares.

This really sucks Fish and I don't want to make you feel worse. However you need to change some things to be successful. Getting honest is at the top of my recommendations list. Honest with family and honest with yourself. You claim that going back on Bup is "not an option." It most certainly is! You may CHOOSE not to, but that is your CHOICE to make. It IS an option. Get honest about that.

Then with some sort of ongoing recovery program I get the feeling you do think that is optional. In this case, you DO NOT HAVE AN OPTION. It is beyond rare for an opite addict to get well on their own. We all need help. We all need a treatment plan to follow. You've been so focused on convincing yourself you can do this on your own and see long term success. That is beyond rare for anyone.

Should you go back on Bup? I can't answer that but I do know it should be an option you consider.

Should you confess to your family? Again you gave to decide but you need to confess to someone in your life. Start with one person you know you can trust. I would hope that's your husband. If it's not your husband, I fear that is another problem you need to confront.

Can you do this on your own? I'm positive about this - and you cannot!

Do you need ongoing, structured treatment! I'm as positive about this - and you do.

We here will totally continue to help you, but you need more. You can have sobriety withou Bup. But that takes a sobriety plan and a lot of work. I also urge you to put Bup back on the table - at least for a while. I'm still not even suggesting you go back on it right now. I am suggesting you consider it.

Hope some, any, or all of that help.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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