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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:33 am 
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I called because there were a few things I had to ask about and they said that even though it's not in the prescribing info, Suboxone and Subutex pills should not be cut at all, since only Suboxone film is uniform throughout. She said that the sword logo thing is NOT supposed to be a one-way score. I pointed out that a straight line down the middle sure looks like a score and that doctors need to be told this, since I've never been told this before. Sometimes that less than half was risking that, but not half. Even then, the doctor who told me that thought that Subutex was pretty uniform (as opposed to Suboxone pills) and similar to the film (which I can't take because the naloxone gives me headaches) in that way.

The woman I spoke to also said that there probably won't be Subutex film because aside from the few who get reactions to the naloxone and/or sweetener in Suboxone, Subutex is generally meant for only for supervised dosing.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:52 am 
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That's really interesting...I'm quite surprised to hear this, because doctors are always prescribing people 1/2 a pill or a pill and a 1/2, etc. My doc has me on 2 1/2 pills a day. Did you call a help line or something? Sometimes I take what those customer service people say with a grain of salt, as I would assume (maybe wrongly?) that they don't have the appropriate education to make such a recommendation. But in this case I'm guessing they were told that in their training. Somehow I doubt people will stop breaking their pills up though. Thanks for posting this. RB is definitely an "interesting" company. :lol:

What do others think of this?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:29 am 
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I called the 1-877-SUBOXONE number that's listed on the official website.

So if you need a half or less dose, use the film. I guess I'll be trying the "don't swallow your saliva/spit out the saliva after 10 minutes" method recommended by Dr. Junig.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:30 pm 
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thats some crazy stuff.

people have been cutting subs up for as long as i can remember. im on 16mg a day an spilt the 8mg up for after dinner an b4 bed. never had a issue with anything or maybe ive just been doing it so long i cant notice a difference.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:07 pm 
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I think that BR would tell us that the pills could cause brain damage if they thought they could get away with it. What a joke. They have spent years and years telling everyone what a miracle the Suboxone pills have been and now that they no longer hold a patent on them and have the film out, the pills are pretty much the worst thing out there. They take too long to dissolve, they taste bad, you can't cut them, blah, blah, blah. What a friken joke. I am all for profit and corporate earnings. I have no problem at all with the free market, but c'mon BR, who do you think you are kidding? What in the hell could possibly go wrong with cutting the pills in half, Oh My God, perhaps you may have one half that is 4.1 mg while the other half is 3.9? Or, gasp, even worse, that one half has 3 mg and the other had 5 mg? Is it really going to harm us in any way? I mean, really - give us a break.

I would strongly urge anyone who has been cutting their pills, to continue doing so. You have nothing to worry about. This is not like a controlled release formulation pill where it would make a difference - as many of us know. If you cut or crush an Oxycontin, you alter the dose and rate of dose. If you cut or crush Suboxone, you have two halves or a crushed pill that will work exactly like the whole - perhaps even better! People have been cutting Suboxne for years and years without any problems.

See, all they want to do is in any way, shape, or form possible, get you to purchase the film and get you used to it before someone comes out with generic Suboxone tabs. From what I can see, there is pretty much only one really good reason to switch to the film - that is a $75 discount for the next several months. Other than that, use whatever you think works best for you. Just don't let BR bullshit you into changing for thier made up reasons.

What will they come up with next? Thanks for reporting this information Grover! It's greatly appreciated.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Damn, you are right (again!), don. I didn't even think of that, but now that you mention it I agree with you 100%. They merely want to steer people to their new product with a new patent. But geez, is it really necessary for them to start making shit up? Greedy bastards at RB.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:43 pm 
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Well to be fair, they are not doing anything new or unique. They are doing what pretty much all of the drug companies do. It's just business as usual. We just need to make sure they don't fool anybody.

To be even fairer (is that a word?) Dr. Junig said that these things were going to happen before they even happened. He was all over this right from the start.

I just would hate to see someone feel as if they had to move to the film or had to stop cutting their pills, or that pills were going to stop being available - when these things are just not the case. This will be even more important when a generic Suboxone pill hits the market. Which, by the way, is over-due. I can't figure out why another company has not come out with something yet with the opening now sitting there for them. Just in general Suboxone needs a huge PR campaign. Look at what all of the advertising and "star" endorsements did for Viagra? We need some Hollywood stars to endorse Suboxone. Oh that's right, all they do is go in and out of rehabs where Suboxone is put down and therefore not used. How's that workin' for ya Lindzy (and many others)?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:50 pm 
This post prompted me to look at some of the RB literature, and i found something else disturbing (but not at all surprising). As we all know, scripts have two types of literature, one for doctors, and a "dumbed down" version for patients. The doctor's insert has info. on all the clinical studies, and contains the following quote:
"Reducing dosage and stopping treatment
The decision to discontinue therapy with SUBOXONE or SUBUTEX after a period of maintenence or brief stabilization should be made as part of a comprehensive treatment plan. Both gradual and abrupt discontinuation have been used, but no controlled trails have been undertaken to determine the best method of dose taper at the end of treatment"

The patient's insert contains the quote:
"Do not stop taking SUBOXONE suddenly. You could become sick and have withdrawal symptoms because your body has become used to the medicine. Physical dependence is not the same as drug addiction. Your doctor can tell you more about the differences between physical dependence and drug addiction. To have fewer withdrawal symptoms, ask your doctor how to stop using SUBOXONE the right way."

So the doctors are given ZERO information, and then the patients are told to get the non-existent information from their doctors. Honest to God, I was so pissed after reading this that I wished I had just toughed out my opiate withdrawal, rather than get on a drug that has NO medically approved method of coming off.

ALSO TROUBLING for anyone who has been accused of "switching dope": For the film, RB lists INTOXICATION as a COMMON SIDE EFFECT!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:29 pm 
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The purpose of ANY "company" is to earn profits. Period.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:50 pm 
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"The purpose of ANY "company" is to earn profits. Period."

And there is nothing wrong with that. Free enterprise is in part what America was built upon. At least it used to be. Somewhere along the line profit became a dirty word. Reckitt Benckiser Pharmaceuticals Inc., has clearly profited a lot from creating Suboxone and helping to get the United States Government to approve its use. I have been able to successfully treat, manage and maintain my addiction. I consider us even.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:43 pm 
Over the last several months I've seen a lot of posters come on here and say that their mom/dad/wife/husband/whoever is against their Sub treatments because "they're just substituting one drug for another". That's why I was so disturbed to read in the patient insert, that family members might read, that intoxication is a "common" side effect. I think that's going to cause some huge issues for those trying to gain support from their families. Anyone else feel this way? And is intoxication really a common side effect after the first 1-3 days?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:47 am 
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It is very concerning, Lilly. I'm guessing they have to list every possible side effect and for opiate naive people, they would experience intoxication. It's a shame they aren't able (or won't/didn't) clarify that. The part about the doctor's insert saying there is no good taper plan, but the patient insert saying talk to your doctor about the right plan to taper is...well....concerning also. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:47 pm 
Thanks for replying, Mel. I think this is also pertinent to the discussion of how ED doctors view Sub patients. If they think it's an intoxicant then, of course, they're going to view us as just looking for a legal high.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:51 am 
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I'm curious why intoxication is listed as a common side effect on the film but wasn't on the pills. How big of a difference could there have been in the clinical trials?

For what it's worth, based on what my doctor has said, I'm pretty sure that they are telling the truth about the film being 100% evenly distributed. Exactly how uneven the pills are is another matter.

Honestly, I do believe them when they say that they were never meant to be cut. Regardless of whether or not the sword is a one-way score, I think it says something that Teva's generic Subutex has nothing resembling a score.

The prescribing information discrepancy about the tapering is really, really awful. They should work on bringing back proglumide and make Suboxone an intermediate drug. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:02 pm 
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so wait...

are people saying that suboxone pills/film are not made to be cut?? how else are you suppose to ween yourself off?? i have been cutting mine for a year and i do not notice anything...

why wouldnt you be able to cut a pill in half? is it saying that 75% of the medicine is in one corner of the pill!?!? hahaha

what does this scoring mean? i have never heard that before...

i find this very hard to believe but if someone could drop some knowledge for me that would be tremendous


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:36 pm 
Its fine to cut them reckitt and benckiser are full of nothing but BS. The only reason they put it out there that the pills cant be cut is because they want you to buy their stupid 2mg pills which cost double the $ for the same amount of mgs if you buy the 8's. I never knew the price difference until I read on some forums and was furious because my doctor had been prescribing me the 2mg pills even when I was on 16mgs a day, when you buy the 2's it costs 16$ for 8mgs instead of 8. It makes me think RB reps are telling the doctors to push the 2mg pills and are getting some sort of kick back for doing so even tho ive heard docs dont get anymore $ for prescribing certain meds Im not so sure, what would be the reasoning of giving me 8 2mg pills a day instead of 2 8mg pills unless he was getting something out of it. When I called him to have him switch my script over to 8's he actualy sounded a little flustered and embarrassed when I had told him that I didnt understand why I had to pay so much more money for the same meds, it was almost like he felt like I had "caught" him or something.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:49 pm 
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Scoring is line that's on a pill which would be where you could break or cut it. Some people say the line on the suboxone (8mg) tablet is a score, others say it's just a line.

Suboxowned - did you see my post about the online database where you can search to see if your doctor is taking speaking/consulting money from the drug companies? It's here: http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=20254#20254

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:37 am 
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I've called those people a number of times, and depending on who you get, you will be told something totally different. However, they absolutely will not give tapering advice 'as everyone is different'. I actually just talked to a lady there today and learned almost nothing except that my coupon thing will take $75 off my film every month until 3/11.

I've known tons and tons of people who wean by cutting the tablets. Thankfully, the long half life makes it less important if it isn't exactly even. If you spit an 8 into 4-2/mg pieces, you know for certain over the next four days that you will be getting 8 mg from what you just cut up. If it's a little off day by day, it shouldn't really matter, right? I'm using a mix of tabs and films. I cut 8-mg tabs in half and put them in my dispenser, making sure I use the halves from the same 8-mg tab over two consecutive days. I also use half of a film strip per day.

Interestingly, about two calls ago, before filling my first films, I was told I could not cut them because they were 'sticky like teeth whitener strips'. This is not at all what the films are like!! I wondered if that rep had ever even seen one!

Gotta love them!

laddertipper


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