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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:25 am 
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I'm not committing to having jumped and I still have plenty of Sub! Don't wanna box myself in....

I had tapered down to between .0625 to .125. I took my last 1/16 on Wed night/Thurs morning at 1 a.m. So, right now it has been 55 hours.

I do have symptoms, but they are not scary, not terrible whatsoever. I have very minimal anxiety, which I mostly got a few times during the night. I was dosing at night but didn't the night before last and slept just fine. Then, last night, I slept a good night's sleep. In fact, I was so exhausted that I slept more than normal. I just woke up a number of times with cold sweats, which I have not had in a long time. I saved myself a piece of Klonopin for the middle of the night if I got monster anxiety like I did when I tried to stop at .75, but I did not need to take it and I was too cold and sweaty to go get it. The cold sweats are probably the most significant thing thus far, but now that it's daytime, they aren't bad either. I do feel very physically tired. I feel like sitting down. :D I think my brain even feels tired. This is a weird thing for me, because normally I have too many thoughts at one time, and now most of those thinkers have gone to sleep or something. IDK....I have the weird smell in my nose. That's about it. My legs aren't even bad.

I was planning to take 1/16's spread out as far as I could, but right now, I'm thinking I may not do that. I really will try to push through this, especially since it's so minimal.

If I can make it off, I have so many things to write to all you guys about tapering. I've learned so much by doing this taper. Most of it is stuff I did wrong and, if I'd done it differently, it would have been much easier on me. :D In fact, IMO, much of the difficulty I had getting to this point was born of my own impatience and fear.

My schedule today cleared out unexpectedly. My cheer leader is sick, so no cheer leading. The Air Races are off because a man crashed into the crowd yesterday. So, I'll be home and lazy today.

Does anyone have any predictions for how long I'll feel draggy and how long the cold sweats will last? I'm hoping after a week, the sweats would go away, which is why I don't want to take more. I want to just get it over with if it isn't going to be that bad. Do you guys think being on a low dose means my symptoms will show themselves pretty soon and when do you think I'll know it's as bad as it will get? Does anyone know if PAWS is still a big issue, even if you taper to a tiny dose?

Off topic: can I give blood if I took Sub up until Wed/Thurs and also take Klon? What about if you are anemic? The plane crash means they need more blood and they are requesting my weird type specifically. The number is busy....

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:39 am 
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Oops, sorry for the early congratulations, but I do think this is it LT. It's been great reading your journey to get to this point and yes, please post a nice journal on how you did what you did. It will help all of us who are trying to taper and jump. I guess the point of your story is to get to a small amount before attempting the jump. I'll do the same.

On giving blood, they normally don't even ask what drugs you are taking. I've asked them before if it mattered and they said no, the blood is pretty much filtered and all the processes it goes through should eliminate any issues. (in my own words) I've been a blood donor all my life and have given gallons and gallons, even while addicted to Norco and Soma. The people who got my blood sure didn't feel any pain!

Go ahead and give. I've tried to give here in Las Vegas but there in no Red Cross. I'll do some research about the need for it with the plane crash and all. Maybe it's a different organization that handles it.

Congratulations!!! I am so happy for you. And even if you do take a little bit, this is probably the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Yippie!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:01 pm 
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rule62 wrote:
Oops, sorry for the early congratulations, but I do think this is it LT. It's been great reading your journey to get to this point and yes, please post a nice journal on how you did what you did. It will help all of us who are trying to taper and jump. I guess the point of your story is to get to a small amount before attempting the jump. I'll do the same.

On giving blood, they normally don't even ask what drugs you are taking. I've asked them before if it mattered and they said no, the blood is pretty much filtered and all the processes it goes through should eliminate any issues. (in my own words) I've been a blood donor all my life and have given gallons and gallons, even while addicted to Norco and Soma. The people who got my blood sure didn't feel any pain!

Go ahead and give. I've tried to give here in Las Vegas but there in no Red Cross. I'll do some research about the need for it with the plane crash and all. Maybe it's a different organization that handles it.

Congratulations!!! I am so happy for you. And even if you do take a little bit, this is probably the end.


The end! The end!! YAY...that sounds great! I want a new tattoo if this is the end. Maybe since I'm such a bump on a log right now, I'll sit here and design it.

No tattoo though until I donate some blood to these poor people. The Red Cross is not collecting the blood. It's another bank, but I just called them and the response has been so overwhelming they aren't taking any right now. I left my name, #, and type, and they will call and schedule it. It was so weird, because my sister texted me and said, "I just left the Air Races! It's so amazing! We have to go together this weekend." Then, she texted me again 20 min. later and said "Crash at the air races. Turn on the tv." We just had those shootings in Carson....

I do think it's smart to get to a small amount. I also think most of us don't approach tapering correctly and put ourselves through all kind of unnecessary hell. Of course, it's easier to say in hindsight, and I know that. I just hope there's eventually something I can say to make it all easier on someone else and to make someone feel like they are in the driver's seat and not at the mercy of tapering. However, I remember plenty of great advice I got on here that I didn't want to follow because I'm too dang stubborn.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:01 pm 
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September 17th, a date which will live in infamy!!!! Laddertipper quit Suboxone and she's never going back (think positive!!)

OMGosh, I knew you were SOOOOOOOOOOO close, but you're doing it, you're really, really doing it!!

I honestly don't think you'll get slammed with symptoms, you tapered so low and did such a good job that you may not get much worse than you are now.

OK, I'm going outside to do a cartwheel now......I better go ahead and get the ambulance on its way first though!! :lol:


PS----YAY YOU!!!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
September 17th, a date which will live in infamy!!!! Laddertipper quit Suboxone and she's never going back (think positive!!)

OMGosh, I knew you were SOOOOOOOOOOO close, but you're doing it, you're really, really doing it!!

I honestly don't think you'll get slammed with symptoms, you tapered so low and did such a good job that you may not get much worse than you are now.

OK, I'm going outside to do a cartwheel now......I better go ahead and get the ambulance on its way first though!! :lol:


PS----YAY YOU!!!!!


K, go cartwheel. Just keep your legs straight and point your toes.

Did I really jump? I don't even know yet, lol.

Now is when I wanna give big, huge props to those people who ran, biked, went to the gym when they jumped. Holy hell, how did they do that?! I said I would, but my body says, "no, you won't."

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Laddertipper – first off good stuff! I haven’t been active on these forums but it sounds like you have gone through some stuff. I’ll tell you what, even if you don’t fully jump you are doing so freaking good with your taper. Please don’t think I’m discouraging you. I’m just saying either way, dam girl your on fire. I totally admire someone that can taper these things, I honestly do. I couldn’t even make the drop from 12mgs to 8mgs. I guess everyone is different. I found every time I lowered my dosage that I went through a mini-wd. You being able to endure that shows real character. Keep up the good work, I am sub’d to this thread.

PS: despite being an opiate addict for years now, I always went to the gym 5-6 days a week religiously. Well I tried going day 4 of jumping off and WOW was it hell. 20 minutes and I had to leave. Take it slow. I figure if you just show up at the gym, or put the running shoes on and not get far at all it’s all good. It’s baby steps as they say. If you keep attempting to workout eventually you will be back in the swing of things….good luck and be safe!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:39 am 
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substation wrote:
Laddertipper – first off good stuff! I haven’t been active on these forums but it sounds like you have gone through some stuff. I’ll tell you what, even if you don’t fully jump you are doing so freaking good with your taper. Please don’t think I’m discouraging you. I’m just saying either way, dam girl your on fire. I totally admire someone that can taper these things, I honestly do. I couldn’t even make the drop from 12mgs to 8mgs. I guess everyone is different. I found every time I lowered my dosage that I went through a mini-wd. You being able to endure that shows real character. Keep up the good work, I am sub’d to this thread.

PS: despite being an opiate addict for years now, I always went to the gym 5-6 days a week religiously. Well I tried going day 4 of jumping off and WOW was it hell. 20 minutes and I had to leave. Take it slow. I figure if you just show up at the gym, or put the running shoes on and not get far at all it’s all good. It’s baby steps as they say. If you keep attempting to workout eventually you will be back in the swing of things….good luck and be safe!


Thank you for your encouragement. It actually started to really hit me and I can't say I feel all that great, but it's not so bad either. I think my standard is too high and I want to feel normal, and that probably is not going to happen. :D Last night was not cold sweats, just hot flashes/RLS/anxiety. I'm kinda surprised this is possible, but whatever. I'm rolling with it.

I still have not taken any and it's now been 77+ hours. I puked a couple times during the night, but I think I have a bit of the stomach flu, since I spent most of yesterday in the ER with one of my kids for that and another of my kids just got over it. My stomach is talking to me. Plus, there's my time of the month and the Sub w/d, so all three are probably contributing. It's still not all that bad.

Will start walking/running as soon as my stomach settles down and my arms don't feel so heavy. I'm gonna get a gym membership too. I wanna get super duper ripped and fit. I decided that while laying in bed staring at the ceiling last night. It's almost time to start snowboarding anyway and I just got a bigger dirt bike and need more upper body strength. And that stuff will all help with any PAWS.

I feel so very odd and fuzzy, lol.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:05 am 
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LT--
Keep it up. I have always been pulling for you and knew that your time was coming. You have come so far. I know that your body is screaming right now--but just hold on to a picture of your kids and your snowboard and scream right back. You can do this. Just think: a few uncomfortable days are your ticket (yes a very costly ticket but well worth the price) to get your life, mind, health and people you love back in place. Stay strong. There is no dishonor in going back--but there is a great reward for persistence. Take care!

brian


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:25 am 
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Hey I’m about what 3-4 days ahead of you so I know exactly how you feel. Well I guess minus the flu and the whole ‘my time of the month’ lol man I’m seriously glad I don’t have to deal with that!

Anyway it sounds to me like this is the opportune time. I mean with all the other stuff going on you might as well do this also, you may not even notice it much considering. IDK guess that’s the way I think I’m kind of an extremist personality. Just say f it and get ‘er done.

So your about 80 hours right now….IDK laddertipper that’s right around when I came on here asking why I didn’t feel ‘that’ bad. And guess what as you probably already know I never felt ‘that bad’ I will tell you my worst day was 5 days after the last dose of sub. I predict that if you (and you will) can tough it out for another 48 hours, I promise you will be fine. I know that’s a big statement on my part but seeing how you did with tapering, I’m stickin with that statement. I’m day 7 right now and I feel freakin GREAT!

You can do this, but have to want it like you probably already know. I compare stopping subs loosely to stopping smoking. If you don’t REALLY wanna quit smoking you WILL NOT. I can tell you that first hand. I tried several times but if you sat down with me and asked ‘dude, do you really wanna quit smoking?’ I would have had to say ‘no, not really’ Maybe you never smoked and can’t relate but it’s just what comes to mind. Funny enough I was thinking about that scenario last night and was thinking….man quitting smoking is NOTHING once you quite opiates!

As far as RLS for me that is by far the worst symptom. I went out to CVS and bought the magnesium, vitamin B complex, and something called ‘restful legs’ I can say it did help. It took me about 45 minutes to fall asleep versus 3 hours the past couple of nights. Maybe check that out for yourself. Strangest thing is the ‘restful legs’ is taken sublingual. Subs were the only meds that I have even taken that way so I was taken back when this leg med was also taken that way. It almost felt like I was taking a sub, but tasted MUCH better. Anyway my point is that it could help if you need the mental satisfaction of putting something under your tong. Plus it obviously helps with RLS, win, win!

Keep up the good work, you’re doing great! :D

PS: don’t worry about getting ‘riped’ right now lol you have the rest of your life. Take it easy on yourself right now


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:27 am 
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brian__TX wrote:
LT--
Keep it up. I have always been pulling for you and knew that your time was coming. You have come so far. I know that your body is screaming right now--but just hold on to a picture of your kids and your snowboard and scream right back. You can do this. Just think: a few uncomfortable days are your ticket (yes a very costly ticket but well worth the price) to get your life, mind, health and people you love back in place. Stay strong. There is no dishonor in going back--but there is a great reward for persistence. Take care!

brian


Thanks so much brian. Thank God for this forum. I need this place and have needed it. It's a lifesaver for many of us.

I really don't want to go back, but last night I was absolutely thinking of a sliver. I hate, hate, hate the anxiety and flopping around in bed. And then I felt too crappy to get up and I could not get comfy to read. I think the hardest thing is not knowing when it gets better. Nobody can tell us, so it feels like going in blind. I'm thinking it cannot get that bad, since I jumped low. However, the first night was fine, second was sketchy, third really wasn't fun. I'm concerned about tonight. I'm thinking it cannot continue to get tougher for much longer. It should get better within a week, right? I stopped around 1/16 and 1/8. I wonder when it's out of my system. If it was out of me within a short time, why would it have gotten worse last night? I don't like not understanding and not knowing what will happen.

I'm gonna keep believing that within one week, anything related to the initial acute will be nearly gone. And I'm going to put my films in the safe, so they are far away.

I have to say that I do not feel depressed at all. I did cry last night, but we watched a movie that was based on a true story and it didn't have a very happy ending. STUPID to watch something like that!! My mind does not feel dark at all though. It's all just physical stuff.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:49 am 
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Don't put the films in the safe, FLUSH 'EM DOWN THE TOILET!!! Wave bye bye as they circle around the bowl, knowing that you won't ever need them again!!

You're 3 full days into this, you pretty much knew that there would be "some" wd to put up with and you're putting up with it. If I remember correctly, some of your previous drops were harder on you than this, right?? If they weren't harder, they were certainly in the ballpark......you made it through all of those other drops and you'll make it through this drop too. Don't think of it as jumping, think of it as you just dropped your dose again. Dang it, I'm pretty smart sometimes, eh?? :lol: :lol: That's all this is LT, it's another drop. You powered through all you're other drops, you'll get through this one too.

You know what, tonight may be a little worse than last night......it's not like your legs and arms are gonna all of a sudden fall off though, it's not gonna be that much worse......unless you psyche yourself into letting it get that much worse.

Many, many of us have reported that the symptoms seem to really set in around where you're at now and they kind of hover there for a few more days, then they subside.

Hang on Bud, you can do this. You've fought harder through some of your drops!!

((((HUGS))))

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:08 pm 
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Sub, you gave me a great way to look at it. I absolutely can make it another 48 hours. I also know that once I do that, I will not let myself take a sliver because I'll be too far in. So, I'm gonna just focus on another 48 hours, which is easier than seeing it as 2 days, because if you count days, you only get to count progress once every 24 hours.

I've definitely had drops worse than this. I think not taking any Sub at all just adds another mental component.

I was dosing at night for a while, and it seems like right when I used to dose is when my body starts up.

Romeo, you want me to flush my Subs? ALL of them? There is really no going back then. I flushed my tab pieces, my bag of Sub tab dust, my broken films. I still only have my leftover films, and I just calculated that at 1/16, I actually have enough to last over a friggin' year!!! When you take 1 2-mg film over 32 days, it lasts a long time, lol. I used to take the equivalent of 16 2-mg films every single day. I cannot believe that.....I'll consider flushing. The safe thing feels 'safer' right now though. If I'm feeling bad enough to consider taking a sliver, there's no way I'd go all the way to the garage and try to open that sucker and then try to cut 1/32 of a film and try to get it placed correctly in my mouth. I'd have to have my hubby do it and he'd say 'no'.

I'm gonna try that natural RLS stuff. Even if it is a placebo effect, placebo effects can be very strong.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:25 pm 
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I don't know how I missed this but congratulations. You are on such a low dose that it was acting like a full agonist and typically withdrawl peaks from days 3-5 on a full agonist and is usually over at about week so you are almost there! With the low dose you are taking it may even be quicker. I have followed your posts here and read all of your taper journals before even joining, you have been an inspiration to me. You were able to do this with 4 kids and it makes me think I can too (I also have 4 children). I know I have said before that I feel like I know you from reading your posts and I am so proud of you! You have been so strong and never gave up. Because of that I know you will make it thru and am comfortable saying you have jumped!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:37 pm 
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YES, YES, YES! You’re getting it! Look, every hour you don’t take a sliver is 1 more hour under your belt and one more reason to not take anything. You do this type of thinking everyday without even knowing you do. Have you ever watched a movie that isn’t all that great? After about 30 minutes you wanna shut it off….you have the clicker in your hand and your about to do it, but you don’t. another 30 minutes passes and your still not sure but I’m willing to bet your not going to turn off the movie. You would have been much more likely to turn it off within the first 30 minutes. At this point you have too much vested and you need to see how the ending turns out. It’s the same…..see how the ending turns out ladder!

I think Romeo is giving very good advice to FLUSH NOW! BUT I will say I haven’t yet. I don’t know why but I guess it’s been my safeguard the last couple of days. I was able to not take them but wasn’t able to flush them and wasn’t even really considering doing that. Now that I’m 7 days out I can tell you I MAY flush tonight…we will see. My point is he has a good point but I understand where you’re coming from also because I’m in the exact same situation right now.

PS: you gave me a great idea BTW….I think I’m getting a new tattoo as well when this is all over with. We both deserve it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I’m going to grab a haircut and blast some music in my car lol I’ll check back later tonight and make sure you’re doing OK…stay strong!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Sub--
Maybe get a little orange pill bandit-looking dude getting his ass kicked by a jackboot lol

bri


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Honest to God, I got my FIRST ever tattoo when I quit Suboxone. I got barbed wire in the shape of an infinity symbol on my inner left bi-cep. It's about the size of two eggs laid end to end.

The barbed wire is for how completely bad ass I was to survive my wd and the infinity symbol stands for the fact that I have to be ever vigilant against my addiction.

It's the gnarlyist (sp?) tattoo EVER!!! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:23 pm 
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wow I just got back from being out of town and look at what I see... WOO HOO LADDERTIPPER.. I havent read all the details yet but wanted to give you a big ass cyber hug................I am so proud of you and I will again say you helped me more then you will ever realilze when I jumped.. I am here for you .. you can pm me anytime and I will go back and read the thread

:):)

YOUR DOING IT GIRL!!!

LISA


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:37 pm 
Laddertipper!!!! You are the bomb!! I have very little doubt that you are D.O.N.E......done, done, done!!! You've made it a good number of hours after taking only tiny amounts for a long time! I really suspect that any acutes you'd have are all but finished. I would very much doubt that any physical symptom you might have from this point will drive you to want to take a dose of Sub.
As for the post-acutes....I'm very interested in if you have any problems at all. Part of my interest is selfish, I must admit, as I'm hanging here at a pretty low dose myself and planning to drop again and hang a little bit again before finally quitting, and I'm doing it really purely with the intention of doing so keeping me from having PAWS. It is my theory, based upon what small amount of evidence I have seen/heard, that we can and most likely will avoid PAWS because of the longer, lower taper.
I believe a good deal of it will come down to keeping our minds right and our bodies healthy. I am sure that you are more than aware of that and will see to taking care of yourself in this regard! For now, I'd say that if you do get hit with some w/d symptoms, try to manage them with Clonidine or a little Klonipin (if it's anxiety) before reaching for even a tiny dose of Sub. I think you've done a good thing by putting away the Sub you have left so that you'll have to really make an effort to get to it. I agree with you, though, on the flushing thing.....I don't think I'll have the courage to do that for several, several months after I'm done.....although I do think for some, it's a great idea, just not for me personally, not today anyway! I'd also say to try not to expect too much from yourself, as you may have a day here and there where things seem to suck. But I believe with Sub w/d as opposed to full-agonists w/d, while it may go on a bit longer, it will be much more intermittent. Whereas, with full agonist w/d, for me anyway, the post-acutes were absolutely relentless! I had that "can't lift my arms to dry my hair" feeling for months! No friggin' lie. I think I was cursed with the worst PAWS experience ever!! Whatever happens with Sub w/d, there is just NO WAY quitting at such a low dose can hold a candle to that experience.
I just have a really strong feeling in my heart that you are going to do fantastic from here on out! What a victory!! You stayed the course and are a true inspiration. I'd like to recommend a book for you that has been helping me when I've had a bit of insomnia or other w/d symptom. It's called, "Battlefield of the Mind" by Joyce Meyer. It is a Christian book by a Christian evangelist and it does contain a lot of scripture. It's been out for a long time, but I am just now getting to reading it and haven't finished it yet. While it may be the type of book that some are not at all interested in, I think you might find it helpful. Again, it's not for those who find Christian writings or scriptural references offensive. Anyway, it's really helping me out in terms of realizing that a lot of the battle with this does lie within the mind. Don't get me wrong......I'm not saying that addiction is something that we can just "get our mind right and get over".....not at all. But I do think the mind can play a role in recovery, especially when we're trying to go abstinence-based.....just my opinion.
Ah, LT, I think you know where my heart is.....I'm just so excited for you and if there's anything I can say or do to encourage you, that's what I want to do!!
Hey, I agree with the other member who mentioned how much extra props you get for doing this with young kids. I remember chasing my tail all over town with my three.....the occassional cancelled cheer event or the like, can really be a blessing sometimes! I'm grateful that my addiction waited until two of mine were grown and the third was well on the way to being grown. I can't imagine doing this with them little or like many of the others here who are working full time as well as taking care of families.
Please keep posting about your experiences. Know that you have my support, whether you continue on Sub free forever, or whether you find some intolerable symptoms and need to take a tiny dose just one or two more times. Whatever it takes, you're there girlfriend!!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:55 pm 
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:D CONGRATULATIONS!! :D I'm thrilled for you!!! You are such a strong and amazing person! Do you know that?! I'm so so proud of you!!

Ok honestly,I would not even think about going back. I know it's tough right now but think about it.. do you really want to relive these three days all over again? I really don't think ya do! Don't let these things take one more day of your life girl. Your going to have to do this sometime so might as well just do it now!! Your three days in! Look how far you have come! You were taking this stuff twice a day not to long ago!

I had the same stomach issues when I jumped. The same. Vomiting,growling crazy stomach. At the time I thought it was the flu. I'm now convinced it was my stomach just returning to normal.These issues will pass. You just have to be patient. I jumped at .125 and after the first three or four days it did get better!! I took clonodine,valium & trazadone only during the first few days!

Take it easy on you right now! Give yourself some time to feel normal before you start pushing yourself to hit the gym. I think it is a wonderful idea but I just think maybe you should place less of a demand on your body and mind right now Maybe start with just walking?

♥ I will be thinking & praying for you my friend!! STAY STRONG!!!

_________________
I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go.
-John Lennon


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
Hey Ladder, guess what?? I just found an old bottle of Lorcet. I can't decide if I should FLUSH 'EM or go put them in the safe.

I'm afraid to FLUSH 'EM because I may need some here in the near future. What if I bonk my finger again?? What if I bonk my head?? What if I stub my toe?? I may need them to deal with the pain, right??

Hmmmm, I can't figure out what to do with them?? I think they'll be completely safe in the safe, even though I know the combination.......Yeah, I won't go take any unless I really need them. :shock:

FLUSH 'EM DUDE!!!!! Isn't that EXACTLY what you'd tell me to do if I really found some Lorcet??

Even if I had been on Lorcet for two weeks and was gonna have to wd again, you would tell me to FLUSH 'EM because you know that I don't need them. Even if I was in pretty severe pain, you would say FLUSH 'EM, because you know I really don't need them.

You don't need Suboxone anymore.

At the very least, you should FLUSH 99% of those suckers. Get rid of them, burn 'em, bury 'em, tap dance on 'em then FLUSH 'EM......just get rid of them!!!

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Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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