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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:31 am 
Hello, I've been into harm-reduction and using methadone and currently suboxone, for yrs. I take 8mgs daily, and have for 18 mos. I am also in a drug-treatment group, thru the court, and have successfully done a perfect 9 mo. program. Except! I have never mentioned being on the Sub, and now they have found out. The shame alone is enough to kill. The main objective here I suppose is asking all or any of you who have been on, or have ever detoxed from 8mgs daily, and yet have used the drug as directed, and just what I can do, where i can go, and/or how can i get some help, as I'm certain it's gonna be all about detox, now. And then probably another 9 mos of the program over. I don't care about that. But how am I supposed to function? I have sooo many questions, sooo many fears, and worries. I'm lost here, and I'm at my wits end.
Any help, directions, pointing things out, other sites/areas, whatever youfeel would/could help, would help me so much right now, and I'd be soo grateful! I have seen the detox taper on other sites, like a 8,8,6,6,6,4,4,4,4,2,2,2,2,1,1,.5.5,.5, but I honestly am a very serious 25yrs worth of experienced heroin user, and my brain just ain't gonna agree. I feel like this is FUTILE!!!!!!
I'm highly educated, turned my life around, and will now have it turned back around for me, all my own fault, all because of bad choices in my past. What do i do?????????????

I am on my way in to speak with my drug counselor from this group in an hour. I will come clean, and face the fire, and then i will get back on here and find out just what's gonna happen, for me, and to me. Thank anyone who replies, and thank all who've read this.
Sincerely(screwed), Christopher


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:46 pm 
Oh my gosh Christopher! I am so sorry for what you are going through! I'm afraid I can't be of much help though as I've been on Suboxone only 2 months now and know that I will not be coming off of it any time soon. I have done a lot of reading though and it sure sounds like the best and most painless method for stopping it is to taper and wean very, very slowly. Those who have done it over the course of several months seem to have the least complaints.
Unfortunately, the stories I've read about fast tapers have sounded pretty unpleasant. Is there any way you can work out something to allow you a longer taper? Who is dictating that you get off the Sub? the court system or something? And what will happen to you if you refuse? I think it is absolute BS that some 'entity' that doesn't have a real understanding about opiate addiction gets to dictate how we proceed in our recovery! I was in a similar situation myself and ended up giving up a nearly 20 year career because of that crap! It is our right to obtain treatment in whatever form it takes (legally of course) that will allow us to be sober, productive, law-abiding citizens!
I hope that your meeting with the counselor went well and that things are looking better for you today. I suppose if you must discontinue Suboxone, you are equipped with other recovery tools to help you make it through, but it really isn't fair. But as you said - it is sometimes our own mistakes of the past that get us into these messes! You said you have turned your life around - Be proud of that and keep it going, no matter what! You have worked too hard to lose it now! Don't let the system get you down. If you gotta do it - you gotta do it! They say that mental attitude has a lot to do with how difficult or easy 'detoxing' can be. So keep your mind occupied, be positive. I've also read that physical exercise is huge also, to get those endorphins flowing. So even if you don't feel like it at all - get up and exercise and sweat! Take care of yourself. I'd love to know more about how all this happened if you feel like sharing.
Hang in there!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:39 pm 
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The 2nd time I used Suboxone I was taking 12mg / day and I just walked away from it. I felt like crap for a few days but it was nothing like the withdrawal from Oxycontin. I am glad that I get to read all of your posts that talk about stopping Suboxone before my time comes. Good luck with your release.

_________________
An addict in pain suffers thrice:

Once from his disease,
Once from his addiction,
Once from his physician’s ignorance.

Karen Miotto, M.D. - Integrated Substance Abuse Program, UCLA


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:18 am 
setmefree wrote:
Oh my gosh Christopher! I am so sorry for what you are going through! I'm afraid I can't be of much help though as I've been on Suboxone only 2 months now and know that I will not be coming off of it any time soon. I have done a lot of reading though and it sure sounds like the best and most painless method for stopping it is to taper and wean very, very slowly. Those who have done it over the course of several months seem to have the least complaints.
Unfortunately, the stories I've read about fast tapers have sounded pretty unpleasant. Is there any way you can work out something to allow you a longer taper? Who is dictating that you get off the Sub? the court system or something? And what will happen to you if you refuse? I think it is absolute BS that some 'entity' that doesn't have a real understanding about opiate addiction gets to dictate how we proceed in our recovery! I was in a similar situation myself and ended up giving up a nearly 20 year career because of that crap! It is our right to obtain treatment in whatever form it takes (legally of course) that will allow us to be sober, productive, law-abiding citizens!
I hope that your meeting with the counselor went well and that things are looking better for you today. I suppose if you must discontinue Suboxone, you are equipped with other recovery tools to help you make it through, but it really isn't fair. But as you said - it is sometimes our own mistakes of the past that get us into these messes! You said you have turned your life around - Be proud of that and keep it going, no matter what! You have worked too hard to lose it now! Don't let the system get you down. If you gotta do it - you gotta do it! They say that mental attitude has a lot to do with how difficult or easy 'detoxing' can be. So keep your mind occupied, be positive. I've also read that physical exercise is huge also, to get those endorphins flowing. So even if you don't feel like it at all - get up and exercise and sweat! Take care of yourself. I'd love to know more about how all this happened if you feel like sharing.
Hang in there!


It means alot to me, and thanks. Went to counselor's, and copped to my being on the Suboxone. He handled it like a proffessional, but it's not him I'm really worried about. It's his boss, the tx Director, who quite frankly is more interested in her power-and-control issues, than whether or not an addict lives a decent, clean & sober life. Please believe that. As I was just telling the person below your post, from what I read & study, and that's about all I do anymore, it's become appearant to me that when it comes to long-term/hard-core opiate/heroin addiction (I used IV heroin for over 15 yrs, and many other opiates also) the best harm reduction by far is the combination of either methadone or Suboxone maintenance, coupled with counseling and outside support groups...all of which I'm doing and have done.
Yes, I'm in a drug tx program in lieu of jail or prison, due to alcohol-another drug by far(!), getting me into a mindset to where I made a very terrible mistake last year, and basically got charged with Burg II. The judge allowed me to enter this program, instead.
For 10 months now, I have done a perfect program. Not one drink, not one stab at any illegal drugs, nothing. And I owe alot of that to Suboxone, even though there are cases of other heroin addicts doing this same thing without it. The only problem is, I don't see them!! Seriously folks, they do not make it!

So, I am to be back in my counselor's office come Monday, where we will be calling my Subox doc, and discussing a titrate model for me. Or, at least that was the plan when I left his office on Thurs. morning. Since then, who should call my house phone? That program director I just mentioned, asking me to please call her at work. Did I call her? Come on now. I'm so full of fear and shame that I hope I never have to face her.

To end this for now, here's the largest problem I have with the entire process: Hoping you know what an "Addictionoligist" is, I've spoken to more than one in my rather small town(Eugene,OR.), and BOTH have highly suggested I be on this medication in Maintenance mode. What I wish is that tx professionals were/are required to continue to stay educated when it comes to new drugs, new sobriety modes, and just an over-all on-going view of how chemistry and recovery are changing daily now, yet these counselors con't to practice what has been taught since the 80's.
Very, very depressing for a person like me who has educate himself, because he obviously can't trust that these others can even come close to possibly knowing just what works best in what year is it?? Oh yeah...almost 2010.

I MEAN COME ON!!!!! (my frustrations). Just last week, in Roseburg,OR. one of the above Addictionoligists did a presentation for students and public alike called, "Buprenorphine in the 21st Century", all about Suboxone /Subutex, and do you think that one single counselor from my city was there? Of course not. And that's just soooo much a shame.

Enough whining for one morning. If anyone even takes the time to read this, if nothing else I really hope that it may help the next person who may one day end up in a similar situation. Because to me? The only people we can count on, the only ones I choose to believe in and count on, are you. Believe that.

Sincerely, Christopher~


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:25 am 
Megamp3n wrote:
The 2nd time I used Suboxone I was taking 12mg / day and I just walked away from it. I felt like crap for a few days but it was nothing like the withdrawal from Oxycontin. I am glad that I get to read all of your posts that talk about stopping Suboxone before my time comes. Good luck with your release.


Thank you. May I ask how long you were on 12 mgs, and walked away, cold turkey(?) from it?? Do you advise any help, like clonidine, or even benzos if one can get them? Something for sleep, even if it's only Trazadone, or some gabapentin(Neurontin)?
I am in a position where I won't be able to basically "lay-down" when the going gets rough, as I must meet these treatment obligations, which is why I ask?
If anyone else out there has ANY other suggestions, such as even the one above(and I thank you!) this one, where they mention ALOT of exercise, I'd appreciate it. I also have: clonidine, Zoloft, Welbutrin, and at times, clonazapam. ALL are prescribed.

Thank you all, Christopher


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:53 pm 
Good to hear an update from you Christopher. It sounds like it didn't go too bad with your counselor. Damn shame you're not just dealing with him, but have to deal with this controlling director person too! Yes I believe you and I know exactly the type of person you are talking about. I've dealt with one myself. Well actually I didn't deal with her for long - it was her way or the highway in the program I was in to try to keep my nursing license. She was the one with the power, so needless to say - it was the highway for me. It is so wrong though.
You mentioned that you had been advised by an addictionologist that you should con't long term Sub maintenance. Could you request a letter from him/her with those recommendations outlined for this controlling director? Surely that would carry some weight. I would also gather some medical literature regarding Suboxone and present that to her as well. You can at least make your case, right? The focus should be on the fact that Sub is NOT mind or mood altering and that it is your very best insurance against relapse and a return to illegal activity. That is supposed to be what your treatment is all about!
I would also, if you haven't already, have a chat with your Sub doc about all this letting him know how uneasy you are about discontinuing Sub, before you have the phone call between him, yourself, and the treatment center. Maybe then the Sub doc can say, "hey, if you're gonna force him off Sub, he has to do it safely and that means it's gonna take a while!"
Maybe plan out with all of them a nice slow taper. Hopefully, they'll at least go for that.
Your Sub doc should also be able to Rx what you'll need (if anything) when it's time to stop the Suboxone. I've read that Clonidine helps as well as benzos (in small quantities) and sleep meds. But you know, if they'll allow you to do a slow taper you probably won't need anything. You'll be able to take it slow, keep everything in your life going and feel okay as you wean off the Sub. I truly hope there will be a way you'll be allowed to do it this way.
I think the whole situation stinks! You shouldn't have to do this, but the powers that be don't seem to care what we think!!!
Anyway - arm yourself with whatever you can when you go in Monday and maybe things will turn out better than you think. Let the power-trip lady know that you know she's in control and maybe she'll at least let you present your case.
All the best with it!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:05 am 
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setmefree wrote:
You mentioned that you had been advised by an addictionologist that you should con't long term Sub maintenance. Could you request a letter from him/her with those recommendations outlined for this controlling director? Surely that would carry some weight. I would also gather some medical literature regarding Suboxone and present that to her as well. You can at least make your case, right? The focus should be on the fact that Sub is NOT mind or mood altering and that it is your very best insurance against relapse and a return to illegal activity. That is supposed to be what your treatment is all about!
I would also, if you haven't already, have a chat with your Sub doc about all this letting him know how uneasy you are about discontinuing Sub, before you have the phone call between him, yourself, and the treatment center. Maybe then the Sub doc can say, "hey, if you're gonna force him off Sub, he has to do it safely and that means it's gonna take a while!"
Maybe plan out with all of them a nice slow taper. Hopefully, they'll at least go for that.


Listen to this man, he's talking sense. Seriously Christopher, force that forced taper out of your head. Don't do it or it WILL come back to haunt you. In all probability you won't walk off 8mgs for 18mths without major withdrawals and forget about "not laying down when the going gets rough". Right now you should be doing EVERYTHING within your power to avoid any quick tapers. Follow the suggestions by setmefree, talk to any doctor who is willing to help you, seek the advice of a lawyer if you must. That addictionologist was right - with your history of drug abuse you need to continue with maintenance, a quick taper right now would spell disaster for you. You said you've got your life back together now - don't fuck it up thanks to some idiot judge. Suboxone is light years away from heroin. Yes, you're still physically dependent on a drug, but the real addiction, that maddening obsession for obtaining and using the drug is non-existent.

I wish you the best of luck man, get back to us on how it all worked out.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:55 am 
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12 mg to stop suddenly be a nightmare I think. Even 2mg suddenly would be rough. It takes time and small doses. Walking down to 2 mg, then use time. 24 hours in between doses,26,28,30, and so on.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:50 am 
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santaslittlehelper7 wrote:
12 mg to stop suddenly be a nightmare I think. Even 2mg suddenly would be rough. It takes time and small doses. Walking down to 2 mg, then use time. 24 hours in between doses,26,28,30, and so on.


Have you done this personally? Is this what you have heard or did you have a personal experience?

Christopher: Those people are morons, and need therapy themselves. I understand that there are both sides of treatment, some that condone and promote Bup maintenance, and those that believe it is as bad as heroin. You're right, the numbers on heroin users without Bup are disturbing, and I can't see the humanity in requesting a rapid detox.

Consider this: Write a letter to the judge, with supporting documentation from your MD as well as Addictionologist, describing for the judge your life so far, your experience with treatment, Suboxone (Bup) and request a change to a different treatment center. Be positive, think positive, and take action. We are willing to act when we need to cop, but we addicts tend to be procrastinators and somewhat lazy, so take action and make it happen!

Rationale


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