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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:42 am 
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Hi everyone this is my first post on the forum all though I have been a member for about a month now. Well the reason why Iam posting is that starting tomorrow I am going to lower my dose drastically (which iam scared as hell of!) I will attempt to lower my dose from 16mg to 4mg. I have been on subs since July of 2009 so about 7 months now and when I started I was on 24mg and so far I have only lowered 8mg. The reason why I want to lower my dose that much is that I want to get of subs as soon as possible and not have my life dictated by any thing other than me. Well I heard that it is possible to lower your dose from 16mg to 4mg in some cases with relatively no issues I just hope thats the case for me. Well anyway I will keep everyone posted daily for the next couple of weeks to see how this works out.

P.S. If anyone has any words of encouragement or ideas for what can make this transaction smother I would appreciate it.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:25 am 
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Well I am no expert but this is what I would do......If you are currently at 16mg I would go three days without taking anything. You won't feel great but really shouldn't have too much withdrawal either. I would do it over the weekend if possible. Then, I would take 4mg and wait an hour. If that doesn't alleviate any withdrawal, I would take another 2 or 4mg. Stabilize on that for a week or two and then do the same thing and skip it for 3 days.

The reason I say this is that when I stopped sub for surgery, I had to stop for 3 days. It was mentally annoying but not too bad physically. It was easier to get through knowing I only had to do it for 3 days. When I went back on it, I was able to easily drop in dosage because I hadn't had it for a while.

For me, dropping from 16mg to 4mg and having the expectation that I stay there might drive me mentally crazy so I am not sure I would be able to do it. HOWEVER...we are all different and if you are dead set on this then it can't hurt to give it a try.

As hard as it was, I truly enjoy not being dependent on anything. I like not having to go to the doc once per month. I enjoy feeling totally substance free. Just be sure you are doing this for the right reasons and that you are ready. Truly ready. Good luck and keep us posted.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:03 am 
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Jackcrack wrote:
As hard as it was, I truly enjoy not being dependent on anything. I like not having to go to the doc once per month. I enjoy feeling totally substance free. Just be sure you are doing this for the right reasons and that you are ready. Truly ready. Good luck and keep us posted.


Wait a miniute....

You are in conflict with your statement the other day...



Jackcrack wrote: I have to say that right now off sub I supposed I feel normal. But I also feel uncomfortable. I was thinking about this today and thought......for the most part, my behavior is the same and I feel the same, only on suboxone I was more focused, happy, and had energy. It isn't that I am unhappy right now, just concerned for my own well being and constantly thinking about it. Like...."should I have a beer with dinner or will I end up drinking instead of doing oxy". I didn't have to think about that on suboxone because it was a non-issue. I didn't really drink in fact and really had no interest.

To be honest with everyone else and myself, I think the feeling is almost the exactly the same sober OR on suboxone, except I was more objectively functional on suboxone and I wasn't worried all the time or stressed.

Quite frankly I don't think it matters what my definition of "normal" would or would not be. I think the true measure is whether or not after time, I was doing better on the suboxone than off of it. Time will tell.


Then your next post in that thread stated you were going back on subs and counted the reasons why you needed too...

Which is it better off or on???


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:14 am 
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I am sure I am in conflict since I feel different about it from minute to minute and day to day. I don't even know if I will go back on the suboxone or not until I get in there...if I even make it to the appointment. Although I am not sure this belongs in this thread.....to answer the question which is better, off or on?

I don't know and I think about it all the time.

I feel really good right now. I don't know if that is the result of the wellbutrin and gabapentin for depression and anxiety, or if that is because I am off the suboxone. Quite frankly the longer I am off the suboxone the more it is difficult to relate and remember how I felt on it. How can I measure it by actual behaviors when there are intervening factors? That is why the decision to go back on or stay off is so difficult. If I wasn't having a chronic pain factor from two conditions I don't think I would be even considering it at this point.

I think anyone who got off it under the circumstances I did would feel in conflict about it. If I sound inconsistent then that is because it is how I am feeling. If I sound confused it is because I am. I think journaling about it on here helps me to see the changes in my own thought process. If it makes you feel any better this was the primary topic in therapy the other day and I brought up my concern about it being a cop out. I don't trust myself at all when it comes to these things and unfortunately no one but me can make the decision. So feel free to put a mirror in front of me and tell me where you think I may be going wrong. I am more than open to feedback. But I think that belongs in the other thread.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:30 am 
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I can understand having different feelings day to day and being inconsistant with your emotions. We all run the gamet with these issues. However, I think we should try to be consistant as possible in our responses to others or else we lose credibliity. When we tell someone whose in a quandry about what to do... that we are doing great without subs and 3 days earlier state we have decided to go back on subs... that can be very confusing to the person considering your advice.

Remember this was a first time poster.

That being said... please don't consider this as criticism or confrontation [more like a question] because none of us are anywhere close to perfect and if we were... we wouldn't be here. My problem is that I should have probably asked you via PM rather than posting here.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:13 pm 
Hello Joseph and welcome to the forum! I'm glad you are here and I think you'll find tons of good information and support!
You and I have been on Suboxone for about the same period of time.....I started Sub on July 9, 2009. I, too, was started on a dose of 24mg/day but my doctor gave me a lot of leeway in my dosing. I don't think I took the full 24mg/day for very long at all (like only days maybe.) I quickly took myself down to 8mg/day and stayed there for several months. I really don't recal having any difficulty with dropping at all and did so relatively quickly. I then dropped down from 8mg/day to 4mg/day pretty quickly and again with minimal difficulty. I recall having a runny nose (common mild w/d symptom for me) but not much more than that.
Now I have to say that I don't feel like I had the mindset that you do when I made my dose reductions. I was not on a 'mission' to dramatically drop my dose and get off the medication as soon as possible and I felt no burning desire to be off everything, nor was I scared as hell about the dose reductions. The reason I bring up these differences is because I feel they are of utmost importance. I am convinced that the mind plays a large role in all this, and the importance of our motives and our expectations in all of this cannot be underestimated.
Having said that, I'll give you my thoughts on your situation. I am not a doctor nor an expert, just someone like you doing the best I can to make my way through recovery and hoping to help someone else along the way. Okay.....my gut feeling is that you may be setting yourself up for a bit of unnecessary suffering. I can think of no reason for you to drop your dose this much this fast. I totally understand your desire to do what you're wanting to do and I'm not saying you will fail. I just think you can give yourself a better chance at getting to your goal if you'll rethink it a little bit. Before I go further....you should consult with your doctor about your plans and get his/her advice on the matter before you move forward with any changes in your treatment plan.
Something to think about.....Why not slow down and just make the drop to 8 - 12mg/day first, stick with that for a couple of weeks and see how you do? Because of the nature of Suboxone - its long half-life and its ceiling effect - I don't think you'll have much, if any, trouble with this dose reduction. Then drop to 6-8mg/day for a couple of weeks and if all goes well, make your drop to 4mg/day at that point.
I see nothing to be gained and potentially much to lose by making a drop from 16mg/day to 4mg/day or by skipping full days between doses at this high of a dose level. Psychologically, you'll be expecting something dramatic to happen and physically you'll be setting yourself up to feel poorly for several days. That, in my opinion, would be foolish. Why jeopardize what you've spent the last 7 months working on? I'm assuming you feel relatively stable and have not used full-agonist opiates and have been working on getting your life together during this time period on Sub. Don't mess that up by getting in too big a hurry to get off the medication.
Again, give yourself a few weeks to get down to your 4mg/day goal. Based upon my experience, getting to that dose will be pretty easy if you do it reasonably. Getting below the 4mg/day will take us much longer.....again, if we want to do it right.
That's my two cents worth.....hope it helps. Most importantly, keep your recovery your priority and your goal remaining off full-agonists. Don't let the goal become getting off Suboxone immediately.....if you do that, I'm afraid you'll regret it.
All the best and let us know how it goes!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:15 pm 
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Hi everyone. Well today is the first day that I will be lowering my dose from 16mg to 4mg and I have decided that I will not take anything for at least today! I think that actually iam going to wait until I go into slight to moderate withdrawals and then take a dose of 4mg. Well whatever the case may be my plan is to get down to 4mg and I will get there so I will keep everyone posted on how and what I do to get there. I dont think it will be to hard but the real test will be in a couple of days. Oh my last dose was the second of 8mg for the day and it was at 10pm. Talk to you all latter :D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:31 pm 
Hi Joseph - I hope you read my reply to you above....if you missed it somehow, please go back and read it.
I think you're making a mistake and I'm concerned about you. Please talk to your doctor about what you're doing.
Again, I've got no issue if you want off Suboxone and your reasons are good. If your foundation in recovery is solid and you've got a good plan in place to avoid relapse, then more power to you! I just don't think you're going about this with the best methodology. I know a previous reply suggested skipping days, but I disagree....just my opinion.
But, yeah, whatever you decide....keep us posted.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Please read and take to heart what SetMeFree is trying to say to you. She is completely 100% on target with her comments. I too am very concerned about the path that you seem hell bent to place yourself on. I can tell you that for me, my total, 100% goal, is to stay off of opiates for the rest of my life. That is the war. For me, everything else is just a battle. However I stay off of opiates is not as important to me so long as my goal is met. I am seeing so many people that seem to have made their goal to not take Suboxone. What kind of a goal is that? I see far too many people who actually do achieve that goal - they actually are able to stop taking Suboxone. Unfortunately, the great majority ends up back at abusing opiates on a daily basis again. Oh, but they did stop having to take Suboxone at least. In some cases, these are actually the lucky ones. Why are they lucky? Because some others end up dead!

Someone in recovery with a goal of getting off of Suboxone will discuss their plans with their physician, put a plan in place with their councilor, firm up support with a sponsor, and have meetings lined up that they will attend on a regular basis. That's how I see someone in recovery going about stopping Suboxone. An addict on the other hand will make up the plan as they go along, not tell their doctor about it, and think that even though others have failed at this that they are somehow "different" and are going to beat the odds and will be just fine. Take a look at your plan and your actions Joseph and you decide which you are. Are you someone in recovery or are you an addict getting ready to use again?

It sounds like you've done well for many months now. Please don't throw that out the window in the name of not having to take an orange pill once or twice a day. It's just not worth it. Please re-think this and if nothing else, please speak with your doctor about your plans. After all, if your plans are good and solid, your doctor will be behind you in them - correct? There would be no reason not to speak with your physician about this - unless of course you don't think that he/she will think it's a very good idea either. Please listen to SetMeFree - she knows what she's talking about.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:43 pm 
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I have to agree with the last post from hatmaker. Get a plan in place. Athough I see nothing wrong with "try and see", I also think a concrete and well thought out plan is the best idea. When I went off it I didn't have a plan and it was truly difficult. At any point if someone had oxycontin in front of my face or if I knew where to get it I am pretty sure I would have jumped at it. The only reason I didn't was because I was on suboxone for 2.5 years and I don't know where to get anything but vicodin and darvocet. Although doable, it is painful. The cravings were EXTREMELY intense for about 6 weeks. I still believe that at your dose you can skip a few days and be ok and then lower the dose. Just be sure your decision to go off is the right one. Be careful. Let us know how you are doing.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:28 am 
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First of all I would like to thank everyone who responded to my post! I am truly amazed and appreciate everyone's concerns. This is my first post so Iam going to definitely consider everyone's reply's and marinate on them for the evening. It has been about 30hrs. since my last dose of 8mg and I dont feel bad at all. I figured that I wouldn't for about the first two days because of the long half life. I am about to go to bed, I have a early class in the morning so I need some sleep. I am still debating when I will take my next dose, when I wake up or when I start having withdraws? Anyway I will keep you all posted with my progress/decisions. Thanks everyone again for all the advice hopefully tomorrow I will be able to PM you to show you that I appreciate it.

P.S. Just replying to what some of you said in your post. I'AM DEFINITELY NOT DOING THIS BECAUSE I WANT TO USE AGAIN, I just want to get to a lower dose as soon as possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Like most others here... I wish you would take more time to insure a smooth transition from the higher dose. However, since you are determined to get down quickly, I hope it works out for you. For me there was essentially no difference being on a higher dose verses 4mg... but I went down rather slowly. I'm fairly certain the end result will be fine but you may hit a few rocks in the road. Keep posting so we know how it goes. This may help someone else who needs to taper fast.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:54 pm 
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Suboxfreedom wrote:

suboxfreedom wrote:
I can understand having different feelings day to day and being inconsistant with your emotions. We all run the gamet with these issues. However, I think we should try to be consistant as possible in our responses to others or else we lose credibliity. When we tell someone whose in a quandry about what to do... that we are doing great without subs and 3 days earlier state we have decided to go back on subs... that can be very confusing to the person considering your advice.

Remember this was a first time poster.

That being said... please don't consider this as criticism or confrontation [more like a question] because none of us are anywhere close to perfect and if we were... we wouldn't be here. My problem is that I should have probably asked you via PM rather than posting here.


I hate to do this here but I can't help it. Suboxfreedom has repeatedly been confrontational of others publicly and in places where it isn't apprpopriate. Suboxfreedom seems to look for something negative since she chose to quote something of mine...taking it out of the context of my journaling post, and sticking it in here. Furthermore, she pulls something where the word "uncomfortable" from my post refers to physical pain. She fails to note that on 2/22 and 2/23 (two days prior to the quote she gave) I explained exactly how I was feeling. ON 2/27 (after the post she quotes) I explained even further why I was making my decision to go back on suboxone. Why find the one post that seems to be inconsistent? Why pull it out of context? Why continously call people out publicly instead of pm's? (Probably because everyone else has a greater level of maturity and ignores her instead of calling her out back...and although I too should do this....as she has said to me privately, I am not working a good program and really shouldn't be sharing my opinions with others or giving advice. Since my program sucks, at least I won't look like a hypocrite when I call her out here. I don't know any better right?).

Here is another example of Suboxfreedom calling people out:

<"Just because you thought you felt normal on subs and now you think you really feel normal without subs... means nothing and has nothing to do with anyone else and how they feel. Have you ever heard of Freuds defense mechanisms... I wonder how many of these fits you...

Denial: claiming/believing that what is true to be actually false.
Displacement: redirecting emotions to a substitute target.
Intellectualization: taking an objective viewpoint.
Projection: attributing uncomfortable feelings to others.
Rationalization: creating false but credible justifications.
Reaction Formation: overacting in the opposite way to the fear.
Regression: going back to acting as a child.
Repression: pushing uncomfortable thoughts into the subconscious.
Sublimation: redirecting 'wrong' urges into socially acceptable actions.

FYI... people use defense mechanisms to reduce anxiety/tension and resolve conflict. And we all use them to some extent but to state others aren't feeling real normalcy on subs and you are without... could mean you are using several of these at the same time to help your recovery??? <END>

She did this in MY thread where it didn't belong and I actually appreciated the post that had been made where she felt in necessary to do this to them. It actually seems like suboxfreedom may be using several of the defense mechanisms above at the same time to help her recovery???

For suboxfreedom to assert that my so called inconsistency causes issues with credibility and her concern is the original poster is blind because she was not only wrong in what she was saying about me, but she was wrong when she was saying she wasn't trying to call me out. She is calling people out quite often and generally unnecessarily. When she does so, the pattern seems to reflect a desire to show others how much more knowledgable or what a better program she is running. It does NOT generally appear she is trying to help the original poster. She seems to allude to the fact that if you don't have a good program,or cannot post to HER standards, that you should be "careful" what you say, or in other words, you really shouldn't be posting. Also her posts seem to infer that she is somehow better than the person she is condemning.

Joseph sounds like a pretty intelligent guy. I am pretty sure he is more than capable of deciding on his own if there is an opinion he doesn't prefer or trust. To assert otherwise as she has done is to question his intellect and capacity (but as she has already insinuated in her posts, she has greater intellect and capacity than everyone else anyways). She also fails to acknowledge that I am about as new to this forum as Joseph but she isn't concerned about ME getting confused or upset by her calling me out or that it might be harmful to me NOR that it may make others hesitant to share their real feelings or concerns for fear of being criticized by her.

There does seem to be a common theme appearing and it seems to be any suggestion that someone could be feeling ok or doing well off the suboxone. Could it be that suboxfreedom feels insecure about her own suboxone use? Or inability to be free of it? Well I really don't know. What I do know is that is suboxfreedom was working such a great program and is as perfect as she likes to assert herself to be, she would start taking her own inventory and stop taking everyone elses.

Note: I did PM her first and was quite nice but she responded by being extremely nasty yet again so I needed to at least defend myself here and also for the benefit of the original poster. (Does anyone buy that? "No" you say? Good). My intention IS to defend myself but it is also to show suboxfreedom what it is like to be called out so maybe she will stop doing it to everyone else.

Joseph.....I am really sorry for doing this in your thread. But since she started it here I felt I had to keep it here. I do hope you do well and I do hope that you will keep us up to speed on how you are doing. Again...I am truly sorry.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:29 pm 
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Yes I did question you and the other person. Thats it... don't try to explain it as a pattern because it's not! That, as a diversionary attempt, is rather pathetic.

Reagarding the PM... I was much nicer to you then you were to me and now you want to continue this in front of others. WHY??

I can only assume you seek to find some kind of public support or validation by moving this back to an open discussion... I tried to finish this publicly in my last thought by saying the following at the end of my post:

Please don't consider this as criticism or confrontation [more like a question] because none of us are anywhere close to perfect and if we were... we wouldn't be here. My problem is that I should have probably asked you via PM rather than posting here.

But you just can't leave it alone.

One more time. I simply questioned the obvious conflict between your two positions... of one day outlining all the reasons for going back on subs... and a couple of days later telling a new first time poster, you are essentially happy and content without subs. These are pretty extreme differences over such a short period of time. You also stated your own husband calls you Ozzy as in Ozzy Osborne. I guess that says it all.

If you have a problem with someone asking you a question regarding a 180 degree change in position over such a short period... I don't know what else to say. Other than... you chastise me for finding a previous post of yours and making an issue of it... and then do the exact same thing in an attempt to make me look as silly as you. That kinda has the odor of hypocracy. BTW... Don't flatter yourself... I didn't need to search your history to find the descrepancy between you doing so fine now without subs... and previously listing numerically the reasons why you're going back on subs after quitting... that doesn't come up here often and tends to stick in a persons mind for awhile. Especially when they state the opposite so soon after.

BTW again... I'm a HE... not a she. Another false assumption of yours.

Furthermore... your mention something about a post "in MY thread". I didn't know we had our own individual threads here?? When you start a discussion... does that mean it's YOURS and you own it? Also... since your IQ is higher than your dr, I'm sure it's higher than mine too, so excuse my inadequacy in that area and please go easy on me in the future.

Anyway, I've said all I intend too on this nonsense... you can have the last word as I'm sure you will need that...


Last edited by suboxfreedom on Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Yep..you are right. I do want the last word. If you would actually READ what people are writing AND in context then you would know my husband calling me Ozzy refers to how my neurontin makes me slur my words and generates an inability to connect the dots. Just as you didn't pay attention to THIS fact and assume it somehow means something else, you didn't pay attention to the fact that this cognitive side effect of the neurontin makes it extremely difficult to do my job and therefore I did not think it would work for my peripheral neuropathy leading me to question if I would be better off back on suboxone. You seem so busy trying to one up everyone or point out their wrongs that you aren't LISTENING to what is said.

I apologize for the misunderstanding about your sex....but you have been so bitchy in your posts I just assumed you were female.

And yes.....MY thread....which is about me.....should be called "my thread".

I am quite certain my IQ probably is higher than yours although what is more important is that my EQ probably is also. (But yet again another example of how you take things out of context to throw them in people's faces. You make it sound as though I was saying I actually had a high IQ when I just was pointing out how stupid my doctor was and arrogant by making note of his IQ in my first patient meeting. The point of saying mine was higher was to note it wasn't like he was some genius or anything yet was bragging about it. Unlike him....I wasn't saying it to assert I WAS genius). But another fine example of what a negative spin you place on others suggesting arrogance and insecurity.

And you could have some additional work in your perfect recovery program since you cannot admit when you are wrong either which is what you should have done in the PM when I said I didn't think you were treating me fairly instead of writing me back and being an absolute b*$%*.

If the only way to get you to stop doing this to other people was to be a hypocrite and do it to you....then I don't mind being called a hypocrite and I can assume that all the other people you have done this to will appreciate it as well.

And just so that once again people don't get the wrong idea....I am copying our PM's below and then people can judge for themselves. See, I posted quite nicely in this thread in response to you so as NOT to call YOU out even though you had done so to me unfairly. So I think sending the PM instead WAS nice. I may be direct, but there was nothing nasty in my post and I least I am accurate and correct...unlike you.

MY PM TO YOU:
To be honest with you, I think that my thread is pretty clear as it goes on what has transpired over time and why I am going back on the suboxone. I am pretty sure I have mentioned that I feel good in that thread and that it is a pain issue primarily why I am going back on it. I think (although haven't gone back to look) that I have posted I feel good off of the suboxone. I think in fact that I put a note on the bottom of one of my posts (which I realize are long) that clarified for anyone reading it that I felt great and if it wasn't for the pain I wouldn't want to do it or something to that effect.

I think for anyone reading and trying to put themselves in my shoes while reading instead of judging, they would be able to truly empathize. I also believe that I questioned the person who was wanting to taper whether or not they were certain they were making the right decision for themselves. So I certainly don't think that I was pushing anything on them nor do I believe I lack credibility or that I appear to lack credibility.

I also think pulling something from three days ago when it is an ongoing thread on the same topic is a bit unfair when today is a new day. So shouldn't you have been pulling from the most recent and not from something three days ago?

Needless to say....I am kind of annoyed that you question my credibility and I agree you should have sent a message directly to me. I also think you WERE trying to call me out and with your last post you may as well have said "I have my shit together so I can comment to other people. Since you don't have your shit together, you should watch what you say". I would be careful about putting something so direct into a newcomers post otherwise they will think you might do that to them and they will just leave or never say anything for fear of being "called out".

With that being said...I get over things pretty quickly and I am going to get over it as soon as I hit send.

YOUR RESPONSE (reflecting inability to accept responsibility and/or admit when you are WRONG and/or APOLOGIZE):

I tried to avoid a confrontation with my last thought but since you seem determined to have it... I pretty much stand by what I initially posted. To tell someone " I truly enjoy not being dependent on anything. I like not having to go to the doc once per month. I enjoy feeling totally substance free."

And a couple of days before: " I have to say that right now off sub I supposed I feel normal. But I also feel uncomfortable. I was thinking about this today and thought......for the most part, my behavior is the same and I feel the same, only on suboxone I was more focused, happy, and had energy. To be honest with everyone else and myself, I think the feeling is almost the exactly the same sober OR on suboxone, except I was more objectively functional on suboxone and I wasn't worried all the time or stressed.

Thats just the surface as you later go into all the different reasons why you are going back on subs... Do you realize how far you are going from one extreme to the other??? It's one thing to come here looking for help and posting your thoughts and feelings from day to day and another to offer important advice to someone in a potential crises situation.

Based on your own comments... you are not yet stable in your recovery and have no idea whether or not you will be on or off subs in the near future. You go on to tell me that you think your thread is pretty clear on your intentions yet your own husband has started calling you Ozzy as in Ozzy Osbourne. Perhaps you should read it again...

My message to you was and is to be careful in your advice to others [especially new members needing important feedback]

One final thing... you don't know me and have no idea whether or not I have my "shit together"... To say I don't, without that personal knowledge, confirms exactly what I said from the start! That being said, I to get over things quickly too and I'm finished with this BEFORE I tap on the submit tab.

Have a good day and all the best with your surgery!

******Anywhoo.....maybe you should read MY posts again so you can reflect on the err of your ways. Just my opinion....although I need to work on my recovery so it could be bad advice.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:55 pm 
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Jackcrack Says: "I am quite certain my IQ probably is higher than yours"

Let me get this straight... Are you probably certain or certain probably?? You are smarter than your dr and me and and [I guess] 99.9% of everyone else. Is there anyone else as smart as you? Where and how does one become so intelligent??

The only problem is... I bet you have a difficult time relating to the HUNDREDS of people you give all those presentations too. I wish I knew somone as important as you offline... LOL.

You are a piece of work...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Anybody need a SNICKERS?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:46 pm 
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Well you should have resisted since you can't read...nor can you spell. This just proves my point that my IQ is higher than yours so I would have to say DEFINITELY IS as opposed to PROBABLY IS. Glad we could get that clarified. :D

"sorry I couldn't resiist...."

Also...you sound kind of jealous. Maybe you should get with your sponsor and go work on that inventory....


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Man, do I feel dumb. I don't even know what my IQ even is.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:08 pm 
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It is kinda funny two drug addicts arguing about who is smarter.........

Look we have this disease together let's work together to get better not look for the flaws that keep us apart........Take it to PM......


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
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