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 Post subject: I've got low T also!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:44 pm 
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I now take 5mg Sub per day. down from 30mg in the beginning. STILL no drive. I have not had the T level checked at my doctor. After reading these posts I realized (along with lots of other side effects from Sub) that this was happening to me too... Big Time.
Even after reducing... no drive increase. ME! No drive? With MY family genetics? Oh boy.....
Man have I had to deal with other side effects. BUT... Suboxone SAVED MY LIFE. I'll take the trade off ANY DAY with the hope that things get better after I'm weaned off.

I don't have much money and am paying cash for Sub to keep it off my medical records. So... I decided to take DHEA. I buy a bottle of 500 for $16.... that's cheap. I've taken for a month now. Started with 2 of 25mg each. Nothing. I'm up to 7 a day and I'm finally just now noticing a slight bit of positive results.
I'll let everyone know in a month how it's going.

If anyone has bad things to say about DHEA and it's side effects, as opposed to the lotions and injections, please let me know.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:51 pm 
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I just started a thread in the mood section about this same problem. Maybe I should have put it here since I've got no replies yet over there. Anyway summary is my T was 530 pre-sub (but abusing morphine and still going to the gym), and now it's 233 (reference range 292-1052). I have no libido and very little motivation/ambition, no drive to go lift weights any more. Been on sub 9 months, gone from 16/day to 8/day and no change.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:23 am 
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jb0nez wrote:
I just started a thread in the mood section about this same problem. Maybe I should have put it here since I've got no replies yet over there. Anyway summary is my T was 530 pre-sub (but abusing morphine and still going to the gym), and now it's 233 (reference range 292-1052). I have no libido and very little motivation/ambition, no drive to go lift weights any more. Been on sub 9 months, gone from 16/day to 8/day and no change.


J, how much morphine, how often and how long at the high levels before you started the subs? I've heard that all opiate supposedly lower T levels but I assume you were like most of us and on something heavy and for an extended period of time. When was your T test and were you doing any supplementing or anything to help get your the 500+ levels?

I have recently bought a supplement called methyl arimatest. I show all the signs of lowered T. I need to check my levels but no insurance and low on cash so I can't afford to get tests done through md.

Does anyone know of any quality do it yourself Testosterone tests that I could pick up for cheap?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:17 pm 
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This is really making me want to get tested, I wish I was not poor at the moment. it's all I can do to pay my expenses and pay for my subs. I have about 50 dollars a month left to use for gas and whatever else here and there.

But around the age of 24-25 I feel like I hit the peak in my life. I never expected that to happen then. I also started using opiates around that time to regain that sense I used to get of being absolutely obsessed and lost in my interests.

I used to literally get sucked into things for 12 hours or more, only to look at the clock and think a few hours had gone by, by head buzzing with natural endorphins. But that all seemed to plateau and then I began to get desperate to recapture that feeling.

My mother died unexpectedly when I was 25 one morning from a blood clot. I was suddenly thrown head first into the world of adult hood when I'd been dragging my feet since graduating school. Little did I know I would get about 100 thousand dollars in life insurance money, and she left about 40 oxy 80s from her script that I found was a miracle drug to not only deal with the grief of her death, but it made life seem shiny and new all over again, and my social anxiety vanished. I got to where I could not even watch a movie, go on a road trip, or play a video game without being high on oxy. I lived for that moment where I would eat the pill, wait 30 minutes, and then that golden window would open and the initial sensation made me feel perfect.

But that did not last long, and I soon had squandered my 100 thousand dollars, left with only about 15-20 thousand, I kicked opiates cold turkey and set up plans to go live with my sister in Vietnam after 30 days of getting adjusted to my new sober life. After being high for almost 2 years straight, it was like waking up from a bad dream I never knew I was in.

After living all over Asia and Europe for 5 months I came back to the US. Little by little I would get a little oxy or lortab once a month or once a week. I did this for about a year, never feeling the excitement I had for life since I was 24 again.

Then I found out about suboxone and seemed to almost get my life back, but it still just is not the same as when I was 24.

I can't concentrate on anything really for more than 15-30 minutes, I am constantly seeking some method of occupying my mind in any way I can.

I literally glorify my life at 24 just sitting at home content to play video games and love my life without drugs as if it was some amazing moment in my life. I just want to feel normal again.

Now 31, after about 3 years using subs, I have gained a lot of weight, and I have had swollen ankles that after a few years are starting to darken.

About a month before using sub, I tried snorting some street heroin and it gave me swollen ankles. I would literally not take anything for 36 hours and my legs would deflate like clockwork.

I then would take some suboxone and within a few hours the swelling would return. I messed around off and on then not having to worry about withdrawals at the time, and it was like clockwork to control the swelling, so I know that's what has caused it now all these years.

I can't concentrate, no energy, no enthusiasm really even when I feel happy, it's like I am covered in emotional scar tissue and life is a dim imitation of what is was 6-7 years ago.

I have even gotten shorter by an inch or two since I was 21. I used to be 6' foot to 6'1". Now I am only 5'8" !!!

I wish I had access to medical care for thyroid and testosterone tests, i wish I did not ultimately squander 100 thousand dollars in 3 years time, mostly on oxy. If only I knew about subs when I had my money.

It's something I will make it a point to look into when possible in the next couple of years. For now I live life in this fog, remembering what it was like to look forward to getting out of bed instead of having to force myself and pretend I have a reason to care about life.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:36 am 
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Hey virtualoklahomaman...

It sounds like perhaps you've slowly sunk into depression since being on Sub. Whether people who suffer this are prone to depression beforehand, or would have had it anyway, is hard to say. I do feel that in my case, I might be more prone to periods of bipolar depression being on Sub. While I did the abstinence shuffle, I seemed to have depressive symptoms for maybe 1/4 of the year. Since being on Sub it seems to be more like 3/4 of the year, though it's hard to say how much of that is just the progressive nature of bipolar, how much is because of my interferon treatment, and how much is because of the Suboxone.

Many people come on here with "quality of life" issues while being on Suboxone. I'm convinced that enough people complain about life on Sub that at least for a significant number of people, there must be an element of truth behind some of their claims.

I often say that if a person's quality of life on Suboxone, despite not using drugs, is worse than it was before they went on it, then it'd be foolish to remain on Suboxone. But for the vast majority of people, their addiction was such a black hole that life on Suboxone, despite its fallbacks, is still a huge improvement on what they had. However many of these people have no even attempted abstinence, and therefore would not even know if they're destined to be in the fortunate minority who do not require Suboxone to quell their addictive instinct.

In my experience with going off Subutex/Suboxone in the past, libido returns fairly rapidly. Even once a person tapers to a low dose, sexual side-effects diminish a lot and many people say they "feel alive" down there once again. I don't know who told you it takes a year, but for most people on this forum, and my experience, that is a huge exaggeration.

Lack of testosterone is also a side-effect of depression, and it is also known to cause depression as well. It's a bit of an insidious cycle like that. And unfortunately a lot of the anti-depressants of choice have their own sexual side-effects. I felt like a eunuch when I was on SSRI's and Suboxone, so if you choose to seek treatment for depression it would be worth investigating which ones don't have this effect.

Good luck man and keep us posted.

tj


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:14 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
Hey virtualoklahomaman...

It sounds like perhaps you've slowly sunk into depression since being on Sub. Whether people who suffer this are prone to depression beforehand, or would have had it anyway, is hard to say. I do feel that in my case, I might be more prone to periods of bipolar depression being on Sub. While I did the abstinence shuffle, I seemed to have depressive symptoms for maybe 1/4 of the year. Since being on Sub it seems to be more like 3/4 of the year, though it's hard to say how much of that is just the progressive nature of bipolar, how much is because of my interferon treatment, and how much is because of the Suboxone.

Many people come on here with "quality of life" issues while being on Suboxone. I'm convinced that enough people complain about life on Sub that at least for a significant number of people, there must be an element of truth behind some of their claims.

I often say that if a person's quality of life on Suboxone, despite not using drugs, is worse than it was before they went on it, then it'd be foolish to remain on Suboxone. But for the vast majority of people, their addiction was such a black hole that life on Suboxone, despite its fallbacks, is still a huge improvement on what they had. However many of these people have no even attempted abstinence, and therefore would not even know if they're destined to be in the fortunate minority who do not require Suboxone to quell their addictive instinct.

In my experience with going off Subutex/Suboxone in the past, libido returns fairly rapidly. Even once a person tapers to a low dose, sexual side-effects diminish a lot and many people say they "feel alive" down there once again. I don't know who told you it takes a year, but for most people on this forum, and my experience, that is a huge exaggeration.

Lack of testosterone is also a side-effect of depression, and it is also known to cause depression as well. It's a bit of an insidious cycle like that. And unfortunately a lot of the anti-depressants of choice have their own sexual side-effects. I felt like a eunuch when I was on SSRI's and Suboxone, so if you choose to seek treatment for depression it would be worth investigating which ones don't have this effect.

Good luck man and keep us posted.

tj


Actually, I think I gave some impressions I did not intend to. I dont' blame the subs at all for my depression/anhedonia.
Subs have saved my life in many ways, and gave me back part of the spark in my life that I felt I lost. I don't blame them at all actually, before subs, even after being clean for a year, there was not a day that went by that I did not think about getting high. With subs, I can go weeks without even thinking of getting high, that's the most amazing way they liberated me.

The only bad thing I get from the subs is the swollen ankles and lower legs, which is starting to really concern me after several years. I am down to about 4 mg a day, sometimes 2 mg a day if i forget.

I'm not sure what you think I said would happen after a year, and I also don't have too much trouble libido wise. It's diminished, but I still feel amorous every 3 days or so, though sometimes I can go over a week without getting aroused, which comes with opiates. But I find often subs make me kind of affectionate and flirty, oddly enough.

My problems from depression and mania have been around my whole life, opiates only the last 5 years. I have hypomania and generalized anxiety disorder, and I am probably a borderline personality disorder as well. That could be part of my insane mood swings and sense of anhedonia.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:40 am 
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This is interesting. I joined this forum to post about the effect naloxone has on the testoserone, lutenizing hormone feedback loop.

Considerable evidence suggests that endogenous opioids may play an important role in the hypothalamic LH-releasing hormone. Administration of high doses of naloxone, an opiate antagonist, produces an increase in plasma concentration of LH

Which leads to an increase in testosterone.

As suboxone has both a short acting antagonist and a long acting agonist its effect on the testosterone feedback loop could be complex.

Many people say that suboxone seems to last longer than subutex. I theorize that the short acting naloxone sensitises the nervous system to opiates and makes the buprenorphine effect seem stronger hours later.

Maybe something like this is happening with suboxone.

The shot acting naloxone is sensitizing the pituitary gland to the lutenizing hormone suppressing effect of an opiate agonist.

This is just another reason to stick with subutex IMO. As the good doctor said straight buprenorphine has been shown to have less suppression of testosterone than methadone.

Of course I course be wrong about all of this...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:45 pm 
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I've read that at least 2 studies show that Suboxone and LowT do not have a relationship. I have only viewed one of them. It is unconvincing.

Suboxone, LowT, Smoking & Cancer
Technically speaking, smoking does not cause lung cancer either. Google evidence primary smoking lung cancer for those who are dedicated to the belief that one should smoke cigarettes and not worry about getting cancer. Their argument is that the a US white male smoker has an 8% chance of dying of lung cancer, while a US white male nonsmoker has a 1 % chance of dying of lung cancer. Based on the 1999 world health organization data, their statistics are factually true. 92% of US white male smokers do NOT die of lung cancer.

One could make the same argument regarding Suboxone and LowT. Some people have posted to this forum and said they took Suboxone and it:
a) had no effect on their T (normal before & after or low before & after)
b) did have an effect on their T (normal before, low after)

Confirmatory Case Study
Colameco, Coren, & Zimmerman (2008) found this to be the case in their qualitative case study of 10 patients. All 10 had lowT, but they could not confirm the timing of the onset. However, based on their interviews of the cases, they concluded that it is POSSIBLE that a relationship exists between Suboxone and LowT.

Disconfiming Experimental Study
The Bliesener et al. (2005) study did NOT find a relationship between LowT and Suboxone in 17 patients. The data from the control group (n=51) and Suboxone group (n=17) shared the same range. The methadone group (n=37) had a range that was lower ... the top end corresponded with the low end of the other two groups. (see figure below or attached)

While this is a very rigorous study that I respect, it does not prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Suboxone to cause LowT. It is not enough for me to say to someone, "go ahead and take Suboxone" without weighing the obvious positive benefits with the potential negative risks.

Based on these 2 studies, one could say that Suboxone may cause LowT. It is not unscientific to say it is a risk. However, one cannot make that suggestion with much of a degree of confidence either way based on 2 studies totaling 27 patients on Suboxone.

One or two studies are not enough to prove that Suboxone and LowT do (or do not) have a relationship.

References

Bliesener, M., Albrecht, S., Schwager, A., Weckbecker, K., Lichtermann, D. & Klingmuller, D. (2005). Plasma testosterone and sexual function in men receiving buprenorphine maintenance for opioid dependence. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 90(1), 203-206.

Colameco, S., Coren, J. S., & Zimmerman, D. J. (2008). Buprenorphine-induced symptomatic hypogonadism in men: Case reports and discussion. Journal of Addiction Medicine 2(3): 147-150


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