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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:18 am 
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the gel is a pain, if yer doc is cool he will give you a 10ml vial of testosterone cyp. i have been on methadone for years and had a very low T(unable to achieve erection etc,weak,tired). the nurse showed me how to give myself the shot in the rear and i pick up the needles and vial @CVS....much better than gel!


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 Post subject: Low T
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:41 pm 
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Amazing how many men have this problem, especially younger ones. I'm 56 so it's to be expected. My levels were on the border and now I use the Androgel 5g. Never occurred to me to even think it was the Sub because they found my low levels before I started it.

If anything, this is good info for all, and a great advertisement for Androgel. And that stuff is expensive! I did the math and it came out to over $8.00 per gel packet. I have insurance so no big deal.

Great information.


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 Post subject: Another Report
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:02 pm 
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So, Ive been on suboxone (transitioned from methadone) for about 6 weeks. Just had my T levels checked: Free testosterone was 2.5, and total was 84! Oh yeah, I'm only 30!!

So, this thread has been dormant for awhile. Any new experiences or updates? Did you guys deal with your primary doc., or is an endocrinologist the only way to go....

Also, anyone experience a rebound after quitting opiates? If not, wouldn't that suggest opiate use has either physically/ functionally ruined either the pituitary gland or the testes? Has anyone been tested for the hormone that the pituitary gland is supposed to order the testes to make T (which should let one know if the issue lies in the pituitary gland or the gonads), and what about estrogen conversion due to aromatase?

Well, my appt. w/ my regular doctor is on thursday, so I'll let you guys know what he has to say....


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:40 pm 
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I didn't even get to read all the posts, but wanted to chime in on this.

I've been begging my hubby to get his testosterone levels done as he's been on suboxone for over a year and he has ZERO sex drive. It's caused alot of hurt and anxiety for both of us. He says he feels bad, that it's not me at all, that he's still 100% attracted to me but cannot get his mind to want anything to do with sex. We both believe it's from the opiate effects of suboxone. Finally he has a lab slip to get tested, and we just have to get him to the lab (he hates bloodwork as many addicts who used intraveneously at one time do)! I'm desparate to get this fixed as a very important part of our relationship is virtually nonexistent now.

I should also note, (and this is a bit personal and embarrassing - but the truth may help others so here goes), that while I was on full agonist opiates and subsequently on suboxone, I was unable to reach orgasm for the first time in many years. Very frustrating. This was one of the side effects that made me personally get off of suboxone. I noticed when I tapered to very very low amount (200 mcg) I was sometimes able to get there. Now that I am completely sub free, I have no problems in that area. Alas, this makes it even worse since hubby wants NONE and I am left to tend to my own.... needs. Geesh, I'm blushing. Anyhow, I hope his results show a low level of testosterone so he can get on the patch or gel or something. He also has zero energy and drive (for a race car driver who used to never be able to sit still, he's really hurting from this lethargy) and he's gained weight and has developed small "manboobs". I feel so bad for him.

I hope this side effect gets worked out at some point for everyone who suffers from it. Thanks for letting me vent. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:06 pm 
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OK guys and gals, was doing some research on my physcial problems, and came across ths thread, so joined in. OK, first of all, Im 39 yrs old, been sober now for 4 years and 4 months, and that entire time I have been on Suboxone. Of course, I was an opiate abuser for a number of years is why I got on Subox. Well, even though my wife had little to do with me, and my sex drive was nothing when I was abusing opiates, my wife got alarmed after me being "sober" for 3 months, and my sex drive was still non-existent. Me? I hadnt even noticed to be honest.
So, wife wants me to get some blood work done, so i do. Yep, EXTREMELY low T levels. I first got tested for testosterone @ 4 years ago, and I was @ 40, yes, FORTY. As we know, the MININUM it should be for men my age, is between 240-300, and should bec loser to @ 500-600. So, sitting at 40, well, no freakn wonder had zero sex drive. At this time, I notice as well, that my energy levels were dropping as well.
Now, this is where I want to add something. I ORIGINALLY GOT STRUNG OUT ON OPIATES because I wanted that extra "bounce" in my step. I just didnt feel like I had enough energy throughout the day. Pop a few painkillers, and voila, instant energy. Now, I cant say I was LETHARGIC, or anything like that, just not rel motivated I guess you could say.

OK, so, I get on Androgel, the cream, and Im rubbing 2 packets a day on my shoulders. Month or 2 goes by, notice increase in sex drive. Hmmmmm, cool. Evergy level starts to pick up...hmmm, even better. YEAH! So, few months pass, and my energy level is starting to dwindle again. So, go back in, and get tested yet again...levels had improved, but were STILL low, and I was now at @ 170. So, he ups me to 4 packets a day. HOLY CRAP!!! I packed on some beef!!! I normally weigh in the 195-205 range (5'11"), and before you know it, Im sitting at close to 240LBS!! Mind you, it didnt all go to my gut, arms/shoulders/chest swelled up, normal shirts wouldnt fit around my arms. Trying to put on XXL shirts, and werent fitting around the arms/shoulders. My energy levels were OK as well. I go back in @ 6 or 7 months later ( I would jsut call my Dr. and they would send in a refill) but after this period of time, and seeing how big I was getting, i decided to have my levels checked. So, I go in, and yeah, Im off the charts, Im close to a 1000. So, no brainer, lower my does of Androgel, and is where I am now, which is going on @ a year now, 2 pumps (I now use a bottle, instead of the packets), but lethargic as all get out. I mean, I have ZERO energy in the afternoon. My routine:
Wake up 7:30AM , take my Sub (4MG), drink my Coke Cola, and Im good to go until 12:00 (give or take), then I start getting tired, VERY tired, as in I can not keep my eyes open. So tired, that IF I DO close my eyes, I can be asleep in a matter of SECONDS (not lying) So, my delima is this: Either take my2nd dose of 4MG and make it through the day, BUT, come 5:00 and time to play with my 2 kids (6 and 4), FORGET IT! IM DONE! EXHAUSTED! NOTHING LEFT TO GIVE!!!
So, sometimes, I do everything in my power to stay awake, that was I can take my 2nd dose at 5:00, and I can play with my kids.
So, gon in last week, tell Dr. that this is STUPID! I CANt be this exhuasted/worn out at 39 years old to where I cant play with my kids! So, he runs blod work, and yep, freakn T is back down to 54, but get this...MY RED BLOOD CELL COUNT IS SKY HIGH!!!!! SO I CANT UP MY DOES OF ANDROGEL!
And that is what I have NOT heard metioned above, and is really why IM posting:

You guys that are taking Androgel, MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR RED BLOOD CELL COUNT CHECKED!!!! yes, your red blood cell count can be high, and it be a GOOD thing, but it also can be WAY to high, like mine, and cause poor circulation, blood clotting, etc...SO GUYS BE CAREFUL WITH THIS ANDROGEL! Im sorry to rain on your parade for all you guys that are excited about it, Im just telling you because I just found out, and this can be VERY dangerous (as in, YES, HEART ATTACK!!!!!)

So, Ive done more research, and I have very similar symptoms as people with Sleep Apnea, AND Narcoleptics. The thing is, Sleep Apena can be cause by teh introduction of, yep, testosterone like in the form of Androgel!

So, it's like WTF?!?!?!? Is suboxone causing my lower T levels? Is the Low T and/or the Androgel causing my "Sleep Apnea" symptons? WTF is wrong with me!?!?!?!?!? So, Im now set to see BOTH an Endocrologist, AND a Holistic Dr. Im sick and tired of being sick and tired.



Oh, BTW, Im now in full force mode to get OFF suboxone all together. I figure, my mind is in a good place (has been actually for along time now), and I need to know if teh Suboxone is the root of my problems. Is it the domino that falls first, and causinng all my other problems? So, with NO GUARANTEE's that it is or isnt, I figure once Im off, and give my body some time to recover, I'll KNOW if it is. I also know tht it will take me awhile to get off Sub..Ive done the homework, and know what to expect, and Ive already started my tapering. Since last week, Im down to 6MG..figure I give this another week or so, see how it goes. If all fine, try 4MG a day. if not, well, stay at 6MG for a little while longer. Anyways, enough for now..


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 Post subject: garlic
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:37 pm 
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yes" i eat raw (garlic clove) about 1 or 2 chopped up in a pe's of bread or something. sounds weird but it works verey well for me :) but you know the smell of garlic! it also helps sleep. but after you eat it, just don't sleep with any body. :cry:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:43 pm 
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i sleep well with garlic and sleep alone. were did all the other post go again :? :? :? ?????


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:25 am 
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The prior posts are on page one of this thread, john boy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:08 am 
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Me too, add another sub casualty. Got my testosterone test back and need to see and endo. HERE WE F'ING GO. 32 years old and I feel like I'm 90, my looks are gone, I have breasts like a woman so I can never go swimming or to the beach again, depressed, could care less about life, and no motivation. Oh and gained 50 pounds since starting the drug. Pure fat I look like a slob. I shower once or twice a week.

I've read that artificial testosterone can cause liver cancer (not sure about this though), enlarged breasts (I already have this so oh boy that will be fun), testicle shrinkage (nice), infertility (I can't have any more kids any way, I don't have the energy), and maybe a few other fun things.

On the other hand I am told that if I taper off subutex my testosterone should start back on its own, but it will take up to a year (not sure about this either only 1 source).

Nobody in my family has problems with testosterone and I never have either until I started sub. Sub is evil. It does something really bad to our bodies and I suspect in 10-20 years it will be off the market and there will be lawyer commercials to our loved ones wanting them to sue over our sub caused deaths. Just speculation, I pray it doesn't happen.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:10 pm 
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I started taking subs like a month before turning 28yrs old, after about 5-6 months I noticed a lower sex drive, I used to drink a lot while taking opiates and didn't notice it while using but 6 months into subs I had no sex drive, I'm a year and a half plus into them now and I feel much more normal sexdrive now maybe it subsides after you take subs for a year plus? Just my experience. Also I got a little worried about it at one point my fiance started to think I wasn't interested and I didn't want her to feel like that ever. I tried an over the counter supplement called tribulis testeris, you can get it at gnc for pretty cheap and it boosts natural T and also helps to block estrogen production, I could feel a difference in sex drive and energy for sure. I also started to excersize more (lifting weights and running a little) big change. Just thought I would share this its a cheap natural way to try and see if it works. (I never had my T levels checked by a doc so I don't know what they were or if they went up but I could feel a change in my symptoms big time) give it a try, maybe it will help you too. I don't currently take anything and I feel fin a year and a half in as far as energy and sex drive now, if your new to subs these symptoms may even out over time.check with your doc ofcourse good luck guys.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:13 pm 
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After my post (last post, page 1 of this thread), I re-read it, and wanted to be clear about something. SUBOXONE SAVED MY LIFE! My cousin and Uncle (opiate abuser's) both heard about Sub, and got on it, and told me about it. I couldnt believe what they were telling me. Anyways, I got on it, and from Day 1, I was golden, and just like that, i had no more desire to abuse opiates anymore.
So, from THAT aspect, Suboxone is a LIFE SAVER! I just REALLY think and believe that the Dr. that is prescribing REALLY needs to be infomed/educated on it, and then pass it on to the addict. In my case, my 1st visit to Dr. office, sure, she made me stay there ALL day long. Gave me 2MG, took blood pressure (was in severe withdrawal when I went in), 45 minutes later, gave me 2 more MG, took BP. 45 minutes later, gave me anoter 2 MG, took BP, until finally took another 2MG, and 8MG total for the day. I was right as rain, and able to walk out of the office. But thing is, when she was talking to me about it, and introducing me to it, it was, "People will stay on this typically for the entire life. Yes, some people decide they want to get off of it, but most stay on it". So, I was basically lead to believe this drug was perfectly fine, and nothig wrong with taking it teh rest of my life.
Well, after getting blood work done, and seing my lower T levels, then going back with results to my Sub Dr., she REFUSED TO ADMIT THAT IS WAS THE SUB THAT WAS CAUSING MY LOW T COUNT!!!!!
She told me it was IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen. Well, after 2 years of dealing with her/it, I finally left her, because I didnt feel she was open minded enough (or educated enough on Sub for that matter) Because doing my OWn research, I was able to determine that YES, it IS possible that Sub causes lower T. AND, the FACT is, Sub has NOT been around long enough to REALLY have enough LONG TERM testing done. It was what, FDA approved here in the states, 1999? 2000 I think? I know it had been in Ireland (to fight the Heroin problem) since the early 80's I think, but trying to find results for a long time user has been dam near impossible. IN FACT, I MYSELF, is the LONGEST known user, that I know of (been on Sub for 4 years and 4 months) outside of my cousin and Uncle (they started about 4 or so months ahead of me), and GUESS WHAT? Yep, they have the EXACT same symptoms that I do!
OH, almost forgot...not sure this has pertained to anybody else, but what I can tell you this is..when I 1st started (and same goes for my cousin and Uncle), we ALL had SEVERE hand and feet cramping. Hy hands would cramp SO bad in teh morning, that I couldnt grip my toothbrush, or wipe my ass! My feet were hurting so bad, it was painful to walk. After a few months or so, those symptoms went away.
Now, you tell me...Is sub not doing anything harmful to our bodies? I feel it is. But again, i still want to give it it's due credit, as it DID save my life. The problem is, whats gonna save my life trying to get off Suboxone? Oh well, at least my mind is in a good place, which is different then when I was on Opiates. So, the taper has begun (as said above) and still hanging around 6MG.....


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:50 pm 
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rem700, Just goes to show you that everyone is different. I have been on sub. for 2 years with no side effects. My T-levels are fine, I go to the bathroom(#2) every day, my emotions are excellent, I eat right, etc.. Its' to bad you had those side effects, but not everyone does. Buprenorphine has been around for a long time and has been studied. It is derived from theabine, a natarully occurring alkaloid from the poppy plant. There are all sorts of meds. that people have negative side effects from.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:02 pm 
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I'll throw my hat into the ring - after 3 years of opiates (the last two of which were on sub) my total T was under 150. After some more extensive testing mine turned out to be pituitary (LH/FSH signalling hormines). So now I take weekly shots of cypionate, and probably will for the rest of my life.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:50 am 
In late 2009 or early 2010 I started this Low-T topic under the Side Effects heading fearing that people would tell me that it is not a side effect of Suboxone and should not be placed in this section. However, after 2 years of casual research, there is enough medical, circumstantial and anecdotal evidence for me to say that there IS a connection between Low-T and opiates, including synthetic compounds like Suboxone in small number of people.

Many body systems rely on sufficient hormone levels to operate properly, though unless your voice is starting to sound like Michael Jackson, or you’re lactating, YOU are the only one who can say if you are normal. This makes determining the proper T-level within the “normal range” very difficult for even an Endocrinologist.

My Endocrinologist starts our quarterly appointment by reading my blood test results, and then asks me if I think my Androgel dose is correct or if I want to try using more. The first time he did this I said, “Aren’t YOU supposed to be telling ME that?” Can you imagine what we would have done when we were using if a doc asked us that about Percoset or Vicodin?!

NORMAL T level is a very subjective measure for anyone and varies by age. I have seen charts that say a number as low as 200 or as high as 1200 is “normal.” Most of them peg it between 241-800. Anyone lower than 241 is often recommended hormone replacement therapy with one of a number Testosterone of medications. I was given Androgel; a clear alcohol based gel that is indistinguishable from anti-bacterial hand sanitizer. You rub it on your shoulders and upper body. (be careful to stay away from your neck after shaving). Personally, I would not recommend starting the replacement therapy unless your number is under 200 and you are experiencing negative symptoms (constant fatigue, sore breasts, no sex drive, etc.).

I started on 1 packet per day and have increased over 18 months to 5. During my quarterly Endcrinologist visits, he looks at my blood test results to get my T level. I have not been able to get my T-level over 389 even using 4 (x1.62mg Testosterone) pumps per day. He said he would like to see it between 500-600, and upped it to 5. The side effects from the Androgel are getting too much to deal with at 5, so I am cutting down.

On the PRO side, the Androgel did, bring back my sex drive (almost too much). My breasts stopped hurting and swelling, and my weight gain ceased. On the CON side however, I am growing lists more body hair especially in the areas where it is applied. I have mild non-pitting edema in my ankles, and my prostate will swell to they point that makes it difficult to urinate. I have had to go in the stall to pee in a public bathroom because of the embarrassment of standing at the urinal while 5 other guys came and went in the ones next to me.

It has been a controversial theory for years that Methadone use causes a decrease in testosterone. I don’t know if there have been tests or if it was just anecdotal evidence from male methadone patients who lost interest in sex. I have also heard the same thing about Heroin, but I assumed that with Heroin it was because people were just too high to care about getting off.

Suboxone saved my life, marriage and career, and I’m grateful for it. Nevertheless, I do think that the Suboxone use, is somehow related to my low-t issues.


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 Post subject: I think you are right!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:45 am 
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I've been a recreational party'er since college. Alcohol, weed, coke, and pills have always been welcome in my life...until I met the little blue pill. Jumping ahead, I was taking roxy. steady for about two years and got up to 150mg/a day. Any more than that and I would be have a migraine and feel like crap the entire next day, especially mixed with alcohol. My life was coming apart, but I thought I had everything "dicked". that's what roxy does to you, as many of you know. Prior to taking roxy I had the labido of a maniac, I mean if I wasn't attacking my wife I was looking at porn constantly...like I had to have a fix. During my use, the sexlife stopped completely...I simply had no interest in my wife, who is a very beautiful women, and never thought of porn....unusual for me! I remember getting off roxy and feeling my labido come back within a few days, I then started taking soboxone for the wd and it worked great. The doc. over presctibed the subx. initially which made me not what to take them...just a weird, although "high" feeling, I didn't like the way I felt. I've been on subs. for 6 months and don't believe I'll ever have another pill problelm. I'm now weaning myself off the subs. from 8mg a day down to 1-2mg a day. My labido never came back once I started the subs., even when I've taken a few days off I feel no change in my desire.
I started doing searches about subx. and sex drive and found this forum, and this topic with so many similarities to my own story. The more I read the more questions I had, the more symptons I found I had. I've since had my testosterone checked. I am 42 and my score was 215 and after researching this topic for a month I just began hrt using Axiron, 60mg a day. Today is the forth day, so I don't have much to report although I think I'm experiencing some what of a "placebo effect" in my thougts. I believe there is some correlation from roxy, to sub, to low t...I will keep you updated as I do plan to stop the subs., hopefully the hrt will help this along as far as energy and labido. Thanks for reading. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:43 am 
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Testosterone is a steroid hormone which is made in the testes in males and in the ovaries in women (a minimal amount is also made in the adrenal glands). Testosterone has two major functions in the human body.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:24 pm 
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i am currently on 32mg subs daily. my testosterone levels are extremely low so i use the Testim gel every day. so far so good!


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 Post subject: Ok now Im worried
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:54 pm 
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I just returned from the doctors office and he said that my testosterone level is 10, and he said that he has never seen anyone that low. I have been taking suboxone strips for over 2 years now. I was taking 3-8mg a day but my insurance has cut me off. I now pay for them out of pocket and I get by on one 8mg a day.
So now I find out that my T level is 10 and my doctor prescribes trans dermal patches. Well my insurance wont pay for them either. $415 for 30 of them. What the hell do I do now? I can barely afford my subs.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:55 pm 
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malaukar - Have you appealed the decision with your insurance company? You can do that, you know. You could also try other forms of testosterone replacement, such as the gel that you rub onto your skin daily (Androgel). My husband uses that (he's not an opiate addict, just has low T). Sometimes insurance companies are picky about the form a medication comes in. I would definitely call them though and try to find out what they WILL approve to treat the low T.

Also, most of the medication insurance riders (like I have Medco) allows you to go to their website and search for medications to see what's covered and what's not. You might want to check into that as well.

Good luck getting the proper treatment. Also being on a lower dose now of sub might help your T levels rise up a bit, too.

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 Post subject: Thanks Hatmaker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:44 pm 
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I did talk to my doctor and they have said I can get injections for 10 dollars each. I get my first one today. As a matter of fact Im late. I will try other ways of getting insurance to help too.


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