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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:20 pm 
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I've been on sub for 9 months. I've lost all desire to go to the gym (used to be a fanatic, even in my opiate abusing days) and I have no libido. So had it checked -- Total T is 233 with a reference range of (292-1052). Lower than the lowest end of normal. Just for reference, I had my T checked about 3 years ago and it was 530. At that time I was intermittently abusing high dose IV morphine, but I was also still going to the gym.

So at least now I know why I've lost my libido since starting sub...and lost desire to go to the gym, lost a lot of, I guess *passion* about things, or interest in doing things. It's all I can do to grind by in school and I'm about to graduate in May. I should be ecstatic but I feel generally listless and do the bare minimum to slide by at school. I'm content to just sit and play video games for hours, even when it's a beautiful sunny beach day outside. I NEVER used to be like that. I loved the ocean.

Oh, I did have my thyroid checked a few months ago, it was normal but on the lower end of the normal range.

I started at 12mg/day, went up to 16/day and have now tapered down to 6 to 8mg/day. I guess I need to keep tapering further. I just don't like how crappy I feel when I get below 6/day. But if the end result is once I get through the taper crappiness, maybe my testosterone won't be screwed up if I'm at 2mg/day...but the problem is 2mg/day is still a pretty hefty dose of a potent opioid and may NOT be low enough to get my T back. But I sure as hell am not going off Sub, it's saved my life, my marriage, and my schooling -- I have no plans to get off sub completely anytime soon, I know exactly what will happen.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Did I post this in the wrong section or something? Should I have put it in Side Effects?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:29 pm 
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For anyone interested, saw my GP and he immediately gave me Axiron, two squirts to the pits a day, with followup bloodwork in six weeks. God I hope I get my mojo back, people are saying very positive things about this one.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:49 am 
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hi jbonez". i never herd of axiron. and i hope it works for ya? . ya my t is way down. let us no what the out come is on axiron?
i found out why the suboxone was keeping me down and it was not really the subs. it was my mood level and lexapro helped me with that problem.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:29 pm 
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hey jbonez ... sorry it took so long for people to reply to your posts ... sometimes things just get lost in the system.

Yeah the testosterone thing is a real unfortunate side-effect of buprenorphine. I always found bupe to do it more than other opioids. Even as a full time heroin addict I still had desire. However I seem to have gotten used to buprenorphine somewhat, and my testosterone (subjectively gauged by libido) seems to be in the healthy range while on 12mg.

But in past times when I was on Sub I definitely had felt close to zero desire sexually. For me, my lack of sexual drive and desire did affect other parts of my life. It goes back to evolutionary psychology where a component of a guy's need to succeed and achieve comes from the need to be desired sexually. Remove sexual drive from a guy and they can become like a eunuch - no desire to compete, no drive to be better than. Body language also changes and becomes neutral. When I was on Efexxor, and anti-depressant that does similar things, I felt like I wasn't a part of the race anymore. I was standing on the sidelines watching the others play. When I'd meet a new group of guys and girls at a party and we'd size each other up, it wouldn't be long before guys and girls would notice that I wasn't asserting myself socially. I became more of an observer of other people's antics and games, and then realised how much sexuality does actually influence our social behaviour...

Anyway whatever.

I really do hope you find your mojo. Can I ask how often you were using before you got on Sub?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:39 am 
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you hit that one on the spot tear', fuck i'm going to do some thing about this. we are getting to old for this big interuption in life. i had a couple of girls look at me in the same manner. i hate to explain this crapp to them at any time of the day.
jbones'. how do i get this med? thanks

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:09 am 
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Yes I was definitely a eunuch. Not like me at ALL. I'm 35, I should have a raging mojo, and I used to. Before getting on sub had been using IV morphine 100 to 600 mg a day, plus kratom to hold me when the morphine couldn't be found. Even then my T was 580 and I was still going to the gym and still wanted to, you know...have sex with every hot girl in sight.

Anyway about the Axiron, it's a new product, the manufacturer is offering a promotion where you pay only $25 a month for the first year on it -- even if you don't have insurance!! Huge saving. It's a topical testosterone. Of course going on exogenous testosterone has negative repercussions like shutting down sperm production -- and we're trying to have a baby. Of course when you don't even think about sex it's hard to have a baby too! So before starting tesosterone replacement therapy (TRT) read up and talk to your doctor and get your levels checked. And some doctors aren't as willing to prescribe TRT. If your levels are low and you're symptomatic and your doc won't give you Axiron or Androgel or something similar, then go to another doc.

It's supposed to take a few weeks to kick in, but on day 4 I woke up with morning wood and a feeling like "it's good to be alive! What am I going to do today?" Sorry if that's TMI. It's been a little over a week now and I feel like a new man! I feel alive again, I think about sex, I've managed to be intimate with me wife, it's great. I even re-activated my gym membership and started lifting weights again...something I hadn't done in many months. My quality of life is already improving.

I have followup bloodwork in 4 weeks. He had ordered only Test and free Test, so I called and asked if I could have some more tests added -- estradiol, ultrasensitive (estrogen basically), total DHT, thyroid panel, LH & FSH, cortisol, and 25-hydroxy vitamind D. Taking tesosterone can have negative effects on a lot of those. Plus testosterone is converted in the body to estrogen, so if my estrogen starts to get too high I'll need to take arimidex or anastrazol to prevent that from happening.

So all in all so far it's TOTALLY worth it. I'm loving feeling alive again, having energy, having libido. I'm hoping it keeps getting better! If my levels don't rise high enough I'll be prescribed more squirts from the Axiron -- you can go up to 4 squirts a day. If that doesn't get it high enough I'll move to the injectable version.

Really though it's more than just the number -- it's also how you feel. My test was lower than the normal for a 90 year old man, and I was DEFINITELY symptomatic. But if you're not symptomatic, no need to do it, even if your numbers are low. Some people have low test and feel just fine.

Thank for the responses, I'll keep you guys updated. I'm trying to get down to 6mg a day still, but most days end up taking 8mg cause I do feel crappy by the end of the day if I don't. I'm sure stopping sub would get my levels back up, but I plan to stay on sub for a few years at least. I've had no opiates or cravings for opiates for over 9 months now thanks to sub.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:26 am 
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Lather that shit on like sunscreen dude ...

Yeah it's interesting for me. Sub used to cramp my libido / testosterone heaps to the point I was dead down there and completely disinterested. But now I'm pretty much okay, and I'm on 12mg. Maybe I've adjusted to it.

But in the periods I was off opioids altogether and doing the NA thing, I was so obsessed with sex and women it was verging on unhealthy. But that's partly because of the guys I was hanging around with at the time - they were very much predatorial in their mindsets and attitudes towards women ... most of the NA fellowship in that town seemed to be like that actually.

But I digress.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:53 am 
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Same here, I apparently have gotten "used" to the dose...at first I had no interest...but slowly things have returned to normal in the bedroom.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:22 am 
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My husband has low T too (but not from opiates) and has been on Androgel for many years. Come to find out when someone introduces exogenous hormones (from outside), it can apparently (from what I understand) interrupt one's endogenous hormones, such as DHEA. My husband now has sub-normal DHEA levels, which in and of itself causes it's own host of symptoms.

The conundrum is that low T has it's own BAD set of symptoms, as does DHEA. He's now on oral DHEA supplements, but they aren't known to work very well in his situation.

I'm saying this so that those men here who are on exogenous hormones ("outside" or "external" testosterone), you might want to ask your doctor if DHEA would be more appropriate, because - again, according to my research - supplementing DHEA can actually do a better job of raising testosterone levels than testosterone gels do.

Each of you can do the same research I did about this through some Google searches. I just wanted to share what I learned about the subject with the rest of you.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:50 am 
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Taking pill supplements to fix the problem caused by the treatment that's meant to fix the problem caused by the pills that we take to stop us from taking other pills ...

Gotta love modern medicine :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Hey hat, so if a female takes DHEA supplements, is it raising her testosterone levels? I remember sweet16 saying she took them and it helped her libido, so I almost bought some, but I'm a little nervous to try them because I'm afraid of messing with hormones and that kind of stuff. I don't want to start growing a beard or something! :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Just a suggestion to all:

Please check and make sure your testosterone test are covered by insurance. I had mine done in the same office as my Sub Doctor, by his nurse and they are totally covered. Now for some reason, they are saying the blood test is "Out of Network". Makes no sense to me. I am fighting it of course, I have been fighting these profits over people assholes to get the help I have needed for close to two years now. They were trying to pull all sorts of stuff when it came to paying for my treatment. One place sent the bill to another place that then sent the bill to the third place (that covers only specific things) and one was refusing to pay... it was so dumb.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:23 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
Taking pill supplements to fix the problem caused by the treatment that's meant to fix the problem caused by the pills that we take to stop us from taking other pills ...

Gotta love modern medicine :lol:


LOL. The miracle of modern medicine...or something. Yes, I'm now taking a cream to deal with the side effects of taking a pill I have to take to keep me from taking other pills...and there's a good chance I'll need ANOTHER pill for the side effects of the cream!! My one hope is that the testosterone will improve my quality of life so much that I can get off the remeron and klonipin I'm on.

Interesting comments from a few of you that you found your libido returned after a while on sub. I wonder if I had waited it out...but no I just couldn't take it any more, I almost relapsed just because I felt so crappy.

For those with low T, another option instead of exogenous T (as was mentioned, it screws up all sorts of hormonal pathways) is to take Clomid! Yes, clomid, the fertility drug used by women to enhance ovulation. It tells your pituitary gland in the brain to release LH & FSH, two hormones that in women cause the egg in the ovary to mature and get released. But in men, it stimulates the testes to produce testosterone and sperm. It doesn't have nearly as many problem as exogenous testosterone but all of the benefits -- instead of replacing your own body's testosterone (which causes it to shut down ALL testosterone production, LH/FSH release, etc), it signals your body to make its own testosterone.

However, you need a darn savvy doc to know this. Definitely an endocrinologist, and even then a lot of them are not familiar with doing this. (It's been used by bodybuilders for decades to restart their own test production after steroid cycles).


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Isn't Clomid something that people who go on Steroids take post cycle? I know baseball players have tested positive for it, often right before the season starts or right as it is starting (I am assuming coming off of summer steroid use)...


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Good question, Taurus....From my research, NO ONE should take DHEA supplements unless they have had their blood levels tested by their doctor. It's just as bad to have high levels as it is to have low levels. And yes, from what I read, when a woman takes DHEA supplements her T levels do indeed go up. In fact, when they need to be increased for whatever reason, doctors usually give them DHEA instead of exogenous T. It's safer that way for a woman to have her T levels raised that way and/or it works better, something like that.

Again, I found this information pretty easily when my husband came home with lower-than-low DHEA levels and I got very curious so I started Google searching. Don't take my word for it. Do some searching on your own. Anyway, DHEA is considered the "mother hormone" - it's the main, most important hormone and it can apparently cause a whole helluva lot of symptoms when we're low on it. I honestly don't know how my husband's endocrinologist will balance his low T and now low DHEA...I'm wondering if they screwed up by not giving him DHEA supplements earlier in his T treatment. Oh well.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:22 pm 
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As soon as I get insurance I plan on going to the doctor and getting my hormone levels tested because I need to do something about my libido...or lack thereof. My poor honey. :cry:


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:25 pm 
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stephent wrote:
Isn't Clomid something that people who go on Steroids take post cycle? I know baseball players have tested positive for it, often right before the season starts or right as it is starting (I am assuming coming off of summer steroid use)...



Yes. Clomid is often used PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) to restart natural test production. It's also used for the exact same reason, legitimately, by particularly savvy endocrinologists as a way to raise testosterone while preserving fertility. Good luck getting your family practitioner to prescribe it :)


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:43 pm 
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Jbonez,

I started on subs 3 years ago and it immediately killed my libido. Great news for me though, I was the guy that couldn't keep his eyes in their sockets at the beach. I am divorced now for 8 years so having a big drive only interferes with my life but one thing you mentioned is that you don't feel like going to the gym anymore. BINGO! I have always worked out, even when I was using Oxy's but as soon as I got on subs, I lost my desire to go to the gym and that is not like me. I also put on like 40 lbs of FAT that I can't get rid of. I have been 220 lbs, and 36 inch waist like forever and now, I am in size 40!!! I turn 50 this year but from all the years of working out, and being blessed with a full head of hair and good skin, I look 20 years younger than that.

But I was always in the habit of neglecting my sex life. I was engaged a couple of times but didn't get married until I was 38. Prior to getting married, I went 6 years without sex because of a moral commitment with my eyes. It was very hard to do BTW but I am on another celibate period now, this time it's 8 years since I had sex. Up until subs, I took care of my urges on my own when it got too bad but now I don't even do that. (thankfully) That usually involves internet porn and you can get lost in that mess..I hate it. But now, I have no desire and like I said, that is not a problem, more like a blessing for a guy that wants to keep himself pure.

(I live life as a follower of Christ. I don't want to call myself a Christian because that name doesn't have any meaning anymore; someone can call themselves a Christian now a days and do all of the things that they did before they became a Christian, that is, nothing in their lives changes; they still have a foul mouth, smoke pot, (without conviction) have sex etc. A true Christian will show signs that he is regenerated; these are called "works", not necessary for salvation but will be a characteristic of a true believer. I read and study the bible everyday and I have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.)

But I am interested in how this pit spray T did for you, I don't want the libido back but I would like the desire to workout to come back. I get to the point where I can't stand myself for not working out and I come super close to signing up again but I just have gone 3 years now and that is the longest I have ever gone without working out my muscles. I know that they would appreciate some lactic acid drenching them but I just can't get there and maybe this TRT is for me. Anyway, thanks for your post and I hope you have success in the goals you are trying to achieve.

Jim


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:01 pm 
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I had my hormones tested a few months before I got off of subs and I had not only low testosterone but low DHEA as well. Since I'm only 21 (20 at the time I got tested) that was really unfortunate. However, I can say that being off of suboxone (been clean 7 months now, was on suboxone for 1.5 years before that) and lifting weights 3x/week has put my testosterone back through the fucking roof. I also started supplementing with over-the-counter DHEA about a month ago. I've taken 50 mg a day for 2 out of the past 4 weeks, and I've definitely noticed a difference, even during the weeks I didn't take it. The only bad thing about it is that I get mad zits when I take it, but I guess that's a sign it's working, since more hormones = more zits for guys.

I didn't realize this until recently, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of my depression while on subs and while going through PAWS was from having low testosterone. Today, I'm definitely not depressed--people who don't know me said I look happy this week--and while I haven't been tested recently, I would bet anything my testosterone and DHEA levels are at least average for someone my age. Since I've only been clean 7 months, I doubt my opiate receptors and dopamine systems have fully recovered (not even close), which means testosterone is playing a bigger role in my recovery than I could have imagined.


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