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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:24 am 
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So I was always a believer (and I guess just part wishful thinker) that after my Suboxone treatment, and I mean at least a year down the road, life would just go back to normal. Like ending a chapter in my life and moving on. The doctor who got me inducted never spoke a word about long term side effects (or even short term side effects for that matter), and recently, due to beliefs that my previous doctor was actually not very confident he could get me off (he's only been doing it for a year, has only got 3 people off. I dont want to be his guinea pig), I switched over to a different, independent Suboxone doctor, not one run through a rehab clinic. When I went to visit him, he warned me that there is a good chance that Suboxone will cause long term permanent side effects on my pain center in my brain. I would be more tolerable to pain, and also I guess this effects cravings too, as he said these would be more severe/consistent even years after treatment. Of course he said that you are more prone to this if you have a very long track record of abusing opiates before getting on Suboxone.

Anyone heard of this? I never would have guessed that 30 years down the road I'm gonna wake up and still be craving drugs. I sure hope not. I just want to move on with my life and never look back.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:00 pm 
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I have been using Sub now for 4 years, prior to beginning "treatment" I had used opiates for the previous 7 years. Working my way up from vicodin/percocet, dilaudid, oxy, morphine, and dope. My original doctor was in the family practice, when he was licensed and began in the suboxone program. Within, a year he was a fullfledged suboxone/recovery doctor.

Like I said, Ive been taking suboxone now for 4 years. Ive seen my doctor a total of 2 times. He has nurses who dispense the prescriptions from his office. Ive managed to be successful in this amount of time, and have kept myself on a good track with a good future. Occasional slip ups have involved mixing sub and alcohol, which I wouldnt suggest to anyone, unless you like waking up in the hospital, or local jail.

Ive tried quitting in the past, without much of a weening process, and it was the hardest thing Ive ever experienced. I underestimated the extremely long half life of this medication. Like many synthetic drugs, the half life can be incredible.
2 weeks of withdrawal symptoms, coupled with minimal sleep had brought me to my knees, and I realized I would never get off this "medication".

I have entertained the thought of weening off properly, but fear keeps me from jumping.
For the last year Ive been sporadically experiencing night terrors and very vivid dreaming. These always begin within 1-2 hours of falling asleep. I have the feeling of an entity watching down on me, as Im left completely paralyzed and unable to awake, it has its way with my mind. Ive occasionally experienced a very fast spinning and dizzying effect with these terrors. With the inability to awake myself or distinguish reality from sleep. Dreams can be very vivid, where I am actually acting them out, and I have experienced some very real horror scenarios which often incorporate my family. Trying to save them only for them to die infront of me, or fighting for my life, only to be killled, and awaking in panic and sadness. These seem to happen for a week at a time, every night. My sleep is interrupted, resulting in minimal energy and lethargy the entire week sometimes.
After reading, and reflecting, Ive attributed this to an unsteady and commonly an increase in dosage for that given week. I will do some experimenting to see if not taking an evening dose will help in this case. I dont remember experiencing these vivid dreams until about a year ago, so this is some what new.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:45 pm 
This is the reason I am tapering off. I personally think that long-term sub treatment and it's issues are not discussed adequately with patients before they start. It makes every conversation I have with my doctor suspect, because I feel like they all lied about Sub being some kind of wonder drug with no withdrawal. Another thing I personally think is that for me, I didn't want my sub treatment to last longer than my active addiction period. That seems silly.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:00 pm 
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I don't know if the sub is causing the entity watching down on you and the feeling of being paralyzed and unable to wake, because I have had this happen to me many, many times over the years, even before I ever even did drugs. If you google those words, you will find tons of stories of people experiencing this exact same thing. It is sooo scary when it happens. It happens to me still, all the time. The last time it happened was last week. And when I finally can move and wake up, I am so terrified I have to turn the light on and wait a while til I can go back to sleep. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't had it happen, but I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't know what causes it because it just happens randomly to me. Sometimes a bunch of times in one night, sometimes weekly, and sometimes not for a few months or so. I did a lot of research on it years ago and learned a lot about lucid dreaming and being able to control your dreams by waking up in them and realizing you are dreaming, and being able to not fully wake up, but stay in the dream state and take it from there. It sounds kinda cooky, but it really does work. I have had success doing it and it is an amazing feeling. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you aren't the only one who has felt that and I know it is very creepy feeling.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:53 pm 
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I experienced sleep paralysis once when I was 16 and after a long 2 week meth binge. It was creepy. I did not believe I was asleep but I could not move. All I was able to do when I tried to talk to my BF, who had no idea, was , what felt like laughing internally. I do not ever remember an entity so maybe we are speaking of something different but that is what comes to mind when I read your posts about this sleep issue. I will look into lucid dreaming as I have heard about it before. I often wonder if the government (I know this sounds psychotic) is testing a type of energetic "warfare" on populations in America. I only say this because I have heard a few people talking about this recently and I have also been hearing an alarming number of people complain about a group of symptoms that sound very much the same symptoms caused by this scientific rescearch project . Mainly, tiredness, confusion, physical weakness, difficulty concentration. This is being rescearched as a potential form of warfare on certain target populations to prevent them from being able to fight in a war situation. OK so the name of this scientific project is HARP. (High Altitude Rescearch Program~ REALLY???????) You really gotta dig deep to find REAL info. on this. There is a bunch of stuff about HARP easily found online that is just what the government wants us to know. Anyway, from what I understand, The government bought it from the military some years back. I just cant help but believe in so many cases that our government is really trying to control the masses in one way or another. Especially to avoid mass hysteria. I mean if we found out some of the things the government is hiding from us, I know I would be near hysterical no doubt. Not trying to plant any seeds, but it has been something I have often pondered on. Google it if you wish, but I really wonder sometimes if our very own government is screwing with us in the name of rescearch....It WOULDN'T be the first time in history... Just saying..............


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:22 pm 
Taurus wrote:
I don't know if the sub is causing the entity watching down on you and the feeling of being paralyzed and unable to wake, because I have had this happen to me many, many times over the years, even before I ever even did drugs.


I see people mention taking Clonidine for withdrawals on this forum occasionally. I have never heard anyone else mention this, but Clonidine made that same stuff happen to me. It was so scary I quickly stopped taking it in favor of not sleeping at all the time I had it prescribed.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:05 pm 
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At this point there are not alot, if ANY, long term studies on suboxone (that I'm aware of). In fact, that's one of the biggest complaint by a lot of people on sub. We actually WANT some long term studies.

All of the studies I've read and am aware of have all been short term studies. The mu receptors are affected by opiate addiction, in that our addiction causes more to be created, but even that isn't "permanent damage". Once the opiates are removed, the "extra" receptors go away. That's all I've ever heard of from anyone making allegations about long term brain "damage" by opiates, suboxone or otherwise.

As for what your doc said, I've never heard of any such long term affects from suboxone/subutex. I will give you my opinion - many opiates addicts have a very low tolerance for pain, we always have. Just like most of us cannot deal with emotions. It's just part of how most addicts are. But I have no idea if your doctor is right or not. I'd be VERY interested, however, to hear if he can give you some articles or studies that would support his statements/theory. Maybe you can ask him and get back to us? I'm not trying to disprove him, I only want to learn more about what he is saying. If he's true that's something I'd really like to learn more about.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:17 pm 
hatmaker510 wrote:
At this point there are not alot, if ANY, long term studies on suboxone (that I'm aware of). In fact, that's one of the biggest complaint by a lot of people on sub. We actually WANT some long term studies.

All of the studies I've read and am aware of have all been short term studies. The mu receptors are affected by opiate addiction, in that our addiction causes more to be created, but even that isn't "permanent damage". Once the opiates are removed, the "extra" receptors go away. That's all I've ever heard of from anyone making allegations about long term brain "damage" by opiates, suboxone or otherwise.

As for what your doc said, I've never heard of any such long term affects from suboxone/subutex. I will give you my opinion - many opiates addicts have a very low tolerance for pain, we always have. Just like most of us cannot deal with emotions. It's just part of how most addicts are. But I have no idea if your doctor is right or not. I'd be VERY interested, however, to hear if he can give you some articles or studies that would support his statements/theory. Maybe you can ask him and get back to us? I'm not trying to disprove him, I only want to learn more about what he is saying. If he's true that's something I'd really like to learn more about.


Caboose's doctor is talking about a real phenomenon. It is called "opioid-induced hyperalgesia." I read a study recently about it. http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/200 ... 79-684.pdf
That may interest you if you are looking for information about it.
Also, here: http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3216


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Yes, I do know what opiate-induced hyperalgesia (OIH) is, but that's sure not what it sounds like from the description given. With OIH, which BTW I experienced when I was in active addiction, the increased pain subsides when the opiates are removed.**See below. The increased pain does not continue. So I still question that way it was described, either by the doctor or by the poster.

Again, the way I understand it, OIH is not a long term side effect or long term consequence that will be there in 30 years when we're off opiates! From my research, OIH's underlying mechanisms are still poorly understood in the medical community and again (like suboxone), long term studies are still needed about OIH.

Besides, I would think a doctor would use the correct medical terminology when discussing it (i.e., 'opiate-induced hyperalgesia') instead of some vague idea about having permanent side effects in the pain center of the brain.

Just my two cents.

**From: http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/201 ... 45-161.pdf
The treatment (for OIH) involves reducing the opioid dosage, tapering them off, or supplementation with NMDA receptor modulators.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:51 am 
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There are currently no long term tests done as suboxone was first put on the market in 2002. We're the guinea pigs. Were the ones testing it. I think suboxone is a good drug for heroin and needle users to get them away from the dangers that needles and dealers bring into the equation. However, I believe suboxone is like any other opiate and perhaps worse, being synthetic. I have been on this pill for years, and I dont consider myself clean.
Sub is just another drug for the pharms to profit on, and we are enslaved to this pill. I hope to get off them someday, but its not easy. Worst, and longest W/D symptoms Ive ever experienced, and Ive taken every opiate on the market. I honestly dont believe my DR wants me to get off sub. Ive set up my own dosage schedule and have tapered my dose independently. Not at his recommendation. Remember Ive been on these for 4 years. Im prescribed 12 mgs/day, althought i take about 6-8mg. If it were up to my Dr. I would still be on 16mg/day. Ive begun to stock pile the pills when it comes time to taper. Im glad Ive found this forum, and I look forward to helping and learning from others on this stuff. I know of a few ppl who have taken this and they are either still on or now in methadone treatment. I dont know anyone who has ever gotten off.

Sorry to get off topic again, Im very interested in long term side affects aswell, but I dont think theyre attainable as this medication has only been on the market for 10 years now.

I will tell you Ive experienced Constipation, difficulty urinating, lethargy (usually as dose wears off), difficulty waking up in the morning, depression, yellowing/orange teeth, muscle spasms, memory has been affected, but could be linked to ADHD issues. I take no other medication besides suboxone.

All of these symptoms are exaggerated with higher dosage. Ive had constipation to the point of extreme pain during bowel movement, blood in stool, and extremely upset stomach. I remember when I could wake up every morning at 5 am without an alarm clock. This isnt possible anymore. I am lucky to wake up after 12+ hours of sleep. Very difficult to wake to an alarm now.


Last edited by OFT on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:57 am 
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Taurus wrote:
I don't know if the sub is causing the entity watching down on you and the feeling of being paralyzed and unable to wake, because I have had this happen to me many, many times over the years, even before I ever even did drugs. If you google those words, you will find tons of stories of people experiencing this exact same thing. It is sooo scary when it happens. It happens to me still, all the time. The last time it happened was last week. And when I finally can move and wake up, I am so terrified I have to turn the light on and wait a while til I can go back to sleep. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't had it happen, but I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't know what causes it because it just happens randomly to me. Sometimes a bunch of times in one night, sometimes weekly, and sometimes not for a few months or so. I did a lot of research on it years ago and learned a lot about lucid dreaming and being able to control your dreams by waking up in them and realizing you are dreaming, and being able to not fully wake up, but stay in the dream state and take it from there. It sounds kinda cooky, but it really does work. I have had success doing it and it is an amazing feeling. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you aren't the only one who has felt that and I know it is very creepy feeling.



Ive been taking 2-4 mgs all week, about 8pm. Ive experienced these terrors ea night.
I took a 2mg, dosage much earlier in the evening yesterday, and I didnt experience these vivid dreams or night terrors lastnight. I think its directly related to higher doses closer to bed time. Well see how tonight goes. I feel a bit more rested today.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:01 pm 
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OFT: Did you feel good on Suboxone when you first got on it or did you have problems with it from the start? If you did feel ok at first, how long did it take until you started experiencing side effects? Did you continue to gradually start seeing more and more side effects over the 4 years? Or did they all just start happening in the last year?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:40 pm 
hatmaker510 wrote:
At this point there are not alot, if ANY, long term studies on suboxone (that I'm aware of). In fact, that's one of the biggest complaint by a lot of people on sub. We actually WANT some long term studies.

All of the studies I've read and am aware of have all been short term studies. The mu receptors are affected by opiate addiction, in that our addiction causes more to be created, but even that isn't "permanent damage". Once the opiates are removed, the "extra" receptors go away. That's all I've ever heard of from anyone making allegations about long term brain "damage" by opiates, suboxone or otherwise.

As for what your doc said, I've never heard of any such long term affects from suboxone/subutex. I will give you my opinion - many opiates addicts have a very low tolerance for pain, we always have. Just like most of us cannot deal with emotions. It's just part of how most addicts are. But I have no idea if your doctor is right or not. I'd be VERY interested, however, to hear if he can give you some articles or studies that would support his statements/theory. Maybe you can ask him and get back to us? I'm not trying to disprove him, I only want to learn more about what he is saying. If he's true that's something I'd really like to learn more about.


My understanding was that the opiates haven't been removed. Caboose is still on Sub, unless I am misinterpreting. Sub can cause OIH just like any other opiate.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:35 pm 
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I can sit hear and say this is true or thats BS but the fact of the matter when it comes to this subject i could only speak for myself. During my time on suboxone i noticed many side effects but two have stuck with me up to date that i never had before suboxone. I lso had every test done humanly possible to figure out the causes of these side effects/medical problems and every single test came back negative, so that leaves one option suboxone. So in my eyes yes suboxone has long term sideffects.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Bboy, what are the 2 long-term effects that you still have?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:40 am 
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i can say this does not happen to every one". am i still thinking of methadone'. yes. but my freind "wayne'" is on 24mgs 50 years old ,drinks about a 18 pack of bear every other day and has been on suboxone for over 8 years. so it makes me think a little. he also works his ass off 70 hours a week.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:37 am 
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Do any of you even agree on what constitutes "long-term"?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:45 am 
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ya' i do. i guess every one could use more stigma. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:20 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Do any of you even agree on what constitutes "long-term"?


I'd say "nay" on that...doesn't appear so.

I guess long-term for a 60 year-old isn't quite as long as long-term for a 30 year-old.

To me, long-term is QUITE A WHILE..like quite a few decades.

Damn, I'm only 33...when I think long-term..blah, why try to explain it. People here OBVIOUSLY have some sort of ulterior motive...I thought this site had rules about arguing what's better or worse.

People here have made their choice. Why are we even replying to posts that cast our LIFE-SAVING TREATMENT DRUG in such a negative light. I would MUCH rather live a productive life without ABUSING OPIATES and have a year or two cut-off of my life at the end of it than to face death at an early age because I kept taking MORE AND MORE opiate until I OD'D.

WHICH is better...dying young in active addiction...or living to be ...say 70 NOT in active addiction, but having some complication from treating your active addiction later in life? I'd MUCH rather take my chances with the second option...IF THAT EVEN HAPPENS. There's NOTHING saying that WILL happen..so it's a moot point.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I guess I am lucky, cause I honestly can't recall any negative side effects from Suboxone. I have been on them for 3 and a half years.

And, I have had those kind of weird dream things my entire life, off and on. Thank goodness it has been a while since I have had one. I describe them a bit differently though. Please tell me if you any of you think it's the same thing.

I know I am awake, but I cannot open my eyes, I cannot speak, I cannot move. You are just laying there, and you literally feel that you could die right then and there and it is actually quite frightening. You feel that if someone would just yell in your ear it would wake you up. FOr instance, when it happens if I am lying next to someone, I try so hard to speak and say, "SHAKE ME", and sometimes I feel that I am saying it, although they tell me that I am in fact not.

From the research I have done, it is called a "waking dream." Your body is waking up, and your mind is aware, but your body functions have not yet returned. Like I said, this has happened to me ever since I was a young teenager, and I am 26 now. One thing to note, it has happened to me the MOST when I take NAPS during the day. It doesn't not happen as often when I go to sleep for good at night.

Is this the same thing others are talking about? I really hope there are no long-term side effects from Suboxone. Sometimes, SOMETIMES, i feel as though my memory might not be top notch, but I think that is just from my past drug use, and it really is nothing serious. I get straight As in school so it must not be too horribly bad.


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