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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:17 am 
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Taurus wrote:
OFT: Did you feel good on Suboxone when you first got on it or did you have problems with it from the start? If you did feel ok at first, how long did it take until you started experiencing side effects? Did you continue to gradually start seeing more and more side effects over the 4 years? Or did they all just start happening in the last year?


Some of the side effects I listed above began early, the constipation, difficulty urinating and ejaculating, Migraines..
The night terrors or waking dreams, began just over a year ago. Im almost certain it is due to fluctuations in my dosage and primarily dosing before bed.

Im very interested in the long term side effects of suboxone, and I thank the original poster for starting the thread. I look forward to more input here.


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 Post subject: LONG_TERM EFFECTS
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Yes, despite what suboxone shills will tell you, there are very dire long-term effects from use. I have been off of sub for a year now (after 3 years of treatment), and I am still in a very strange state of withdrawal. I feel like I am wearing a 500 pound lead suit, use the toilet about 20 times per day, am weak, depressed, cannot concentrate, difficulty breathing, cannot sleep, RLS, and on and on. This began while using sub. I had to stop taking it because I was having migraines, vomiting, psychosis, burning smell, seizures, etc, but MRIs came back negative. I was switched to methadone, but ended up having a toxic and paradoxical reaction to it. Long story short, I had to be slowly weaned and rotated between several different opioids every other day. THIS STUFF HAS LONG-TERM EFFECTS, AND DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU OTHERWISE !!! It is not a natural opioid, (a partial agonist, no endogenous analogue to a partial agonist and our bodies do not know how to adjust to this), and no long-term studies were done before marketing. I've spoken to neurologists who whole-heartedly believe this stuff is poison!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:39 pm 
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josephdfco wrote:
Yes, despite what suboxone shills will tell you, there are very dire long-term effects from use. I have been off of sub for a year now (after 3 years of treatment), and I am still in a very strange state of withdrawal. I feel like I am wearing a 500 pound lead suit, use the toilet about 20 times per day, am weak, depressed, cannot concentrate, difficulty breathing, cannot sleep, RLS, and on and on. This began while using sub. I had to stop taking it because I was having migraines, vomiting, psychosis, burning smell, seizures, etc, but MRIs came back negative. I was switched to methadone, but ended up having a toxic and paradoxical reaction to it. Long story short, I had to be slowly weaned and rotated between several different opioids every other day. THIS STUFF HAS LONG-TERM EFFECTS, AND DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU OTHERWISE !!! It is not a natural opioid, (a partial agonist, no endogenous analogue to a partial agonist and our bodies do not know how to adjust to this), and no long-term studies were done before marketing. I've spoken to neurologists who whole-heartedly believe this stuff is poison!


You are making unsubstantiated claims that you are not backing up with facts or citations. Please cease doing this. This site provides ACCURATE information and you are making nothing more than allegations.

Watch the trolling...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Sounds like another melodramatic munchausen case. :roll: Buprenorphine is not a natural opioid? So what! Are you suggesting morphine, heroin and kratom don't do any damage? James Brown says it best I think:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07SWjWaOxc4[/youtube]

The ONLY possible "long term" effect sub has had on me isn't a side-effect isolated to buprenorphine at all. It's a long term side-effect of all opioids.

When I first got on subutex when I was 19, my level of opioid dependence was well under the Sub ceiling level. In reality, 1mg of Sub may have 'held' my cravings, as I was only using heroin every few days. I was initially put on 4mg a day, was quite stoned, then reduced to 2... and still got a nice effect. But I ended up reducing off successfully after 4 months (or should I say, jumping off 1mg, as at the time doctors thought 1mg was okay to jump off).

I ended up relapsing a month later, and aside from the first few days, I noticed my overall tolerance level to opioids had risen significantly. Instead of needing 50$ of heroin every few days as I did before using buprenorphine, I started craving heroin every day, and became a daily user.

Over my opioid using career, the ONLY direction my overall tolerance went was up. Went from $50 heroin a week to $200 odd a day purity depending. Sure it went down again after I had a break, but after I'd start using again it'd end up back where it was and would carry on rising again. Because I went on Sub probably when I didn't need daily maintenance at all, my life-long tolerance actually went up as a result.

Same thing would happen with methadone. I'd start off on 40mg, rise to 80-100mg ... relapse, then need twice the heroin I did beforehand. And of course, in my periods of using heroin, the overall tolerance would only go up again. Naltrexone would 'reset' that tolerance to opioid naive levels, but within 4 days of relapsing it'd be back up there and climbing.

I COULD get all regretful and think "if I went to long term rehab THEN instead of Sub, maybe I coulda gotten out before it got too late"... but when you can stop, you don't really want to. And when you really want to stop, you can't. Typical opioid addict progression.

So I think (my humble non-professional opinion), esp for people without much of a tolerance / using career under their belt before going on sub, it's important to NOT be put on a dose too high, and any increase under the ceiling needs to have the life-long increase in dependence taken into consideration. Any time that overall dependence increases, IMO, the harder it is to stay off opioids altogether.

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I am a Suboxone user. I also help moderate this forum.
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 Post subject: Year and a half
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:12 pm 
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I've been on suboxone for a year and a half. Started at 30mg a day!
I had to to overcome the oxycodone dose I was taking.
I'm now down to 5 !!!
It CAN be done. It seems to get easier actually.
when I started, I would reduce by 2mg a month. Now I reduce 1mg per month.

I've had LOTS of side effects too.
There are 2 that are the worst:

- Depression (negative thoughts)
- Lack of testosterone and all the effects that brings.

I take SAM-e for depression, which works most of the time. My family doc gave me the common antidepressants, and the Sub reacted to them all. I couldn't take any of them. This has happened to MANY different meds I've taken while taking Sub. Sub reacts with lots of meds. It's crazy.

I too have lethargy, sleep too long, lack energy, weight loss, have NO interest in sex (which goes against my genetics BIG TIME! LOL). etc. etc.
Then I read on a Sub forum that it wipes out testosterone.... finally, an answer to all the above.
I've started to take DHEA, but I can tell you it wipes most of that out too! I have to take 6 - 25mg pills a day.

As I've reduced, desire has come back a tiny bit. But.... the depression (which is Sub induced negative thoughts) is getting worse!

I could sure use some help finding a solution to this issue besides SAM-e, which hurts my guts sometimes (probably due to the Sub also.)

PS - I take the film. It works better than the tablet. I need less. I've learned NOT to swallow the spit after I'm done. It tears my stomach up when I do, and I get no benefit from it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:51 pm 
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the article that NoAlibi posted about OIH: http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/200 ... 79-684.pdf lists suboxone as one of the TREATMENT options for OIH, not its side-effect!
I read whole article and the authors seem to suggest that "[physicians] Utilize opioids with unique properties[such as methadone/bupe] that may
mitigate OIH. ...Resolution of OIH usually follows quickly during the
maintenance phase with buprenorphine." Furthermore, this study Wuitchik, M. & Feehan, GG: Opioid withdrawal versus opioid maintenance for persons with chronic non-cancer pain: The experience of the Canmore Pain Clinic. Rehab Review 2006; 2:19-21 showed that patients reported reduced levels of pain once opiates are withdrawn. As hatmaker pointed out correctly, OIH, IS NOT what caboose's doctor was talking about. NoALibi, and anybody for that matter, for future reference please refrain from posting incorrect information and passing it off as factual OR add a disclaimer that affirms precisely just that it is your opinion. This is especially true if you are backing up your information with a reference/study where the impulsive reaction of the reader is "oh, the poster's backing it up with some study as a link then it must be true I am not going to check it take it for granted." Such erroneous assumptions can really cost somebody their lives


Also, as far as lifelong cravings are concerned- yep that's to be expected. I was always amazed @ how people in the AA/NA program that have been sober for 20+ years are still experiencing cravings! They deal with them by the power of group therapy and a spiritual connection through going to meetings. Some people deal with them via the pharmacological route such as suboxone maintenance. I am such a sick and hopeless addict, that I need BOTH of those options if I am to survive in this world. I NEED to keep my disease in remission and I am willing to do all that it takes to accomplish that, where meetings+bupe seem to do the trick for me. Other people maybe diferent but that's what works for me!

May GOD be wih you my friends!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:39 am 
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Careful taking DHEA over the counter without having had your levels checked first. Especially if you're taking that much (you said up to 6 a day?). Too high DHEA levels can be just as bad as too low, if I understand correctly.

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 Post subject: dhea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:57 am 
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be careful with DHEA in general, the benefits are not worth the adverse effects!

it's made by the human body naturally, and i think canada requires a prescription for the supplement -highlighting its potential dangers

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:48 pm 
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I haven't seen too many negative side effects, and haven't found much in that regard doing research on it, even at the Mayo Clinic web site. Could you both elaborate on this?

Also, it hasn't increased my libido or energy level so I'm going to the doctor today to have my T levels checked and start on T injections.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:18 am 
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Alrighty, sorry for the long delay but I went on vacation for spring break. Had my appointment before that but was too lazy to post an update, probably should of considering how hazy my memory is.

Basically, he said his claims were mostly based upon speculation between him and his colleagues (probably other sub docs) findings. I forgot the word he used for it, but there was a certain word, that it was based on _______, whatever word goes in that blank.

But anyways, this is somewhat good and bad to hear. Good because no long term studies have actually proven we're damaged for life, but also bad because some doctors believe in that, and just the fact that no long term studies have been done yet. I mean come on, in this has been out over 10 years shouldn't there at least be a 10 year long study? It's all about thinking ahead, especially with dangerous chemicals like this, it shouldn't be something to take lightly. Patient safeness should always go first.

Regarding the sleep paralysis issue from earlier in the topic, I too have experienced this since been on Suboxone. Its different than a lucid dream as I used to have those as a kid. I just watched a video a couple days ago about how to achieve this state, because unlike you guys, I LOVED what I could do during this state and would love to achieve it again.

A lucid dream is when your already deep in sleep, having a normal dream, and somewhere during that dream you notice that your actually in a dream. You can then proceed to do whatever you want. What these are called would be sleep paralysis, or OBE, out of body experiences. They happen as you are falling into the dream state. What happens when you sleep is that right before you fall asleep your mind goes into a little safe zone, and your connection to your bodies movements are shut down. Usually we are almost completely unconscious during this state and we don't notice it. However, there is the phenomenon where you start to notice your body is being shut down, and continues to do so, and if you are able to stay calm, your mind stays active. It is actually a form of meditation. I was experiencing this randomly since being on Suboxone, usually right after I got into bed, it would be a short 1 minute dream then I'd wake up.

But then, I ended up taking Ambien one night for sleep since I had taken my ADD meds. Somewhere during that weird night this happened to me. You actually feel your body being gradually shut down, like a blanket slowly being pulled over you from the bottom up. After I got put in this state of paralysis, if I was able to stay calm and VISUALIZE something, it would turn into a dream and I could go exploring. This is amazingly fun and can be very insightful. I had about 8 or so of these dreams in that night, each time waking up, realizing what had happened, and then within 2 minutes having the process repeat itself all over again.

Many people report having strange dreams on ambien and this is probably what they are talking about. It just amazes me that theres a drug out there that can increase your chances of having an OBE or lucid dream.

Since that Ambien night I have had this happen to me once, in probably the last 2 or 3 months. I felt my body shut down, was stuck in this state where all I could see is blackness yet my body can't move, could not calm my mind down enough to just relax and try to dream, and then suddenly I woke up and broke the trance.

Many people try to achieve this state through heavy meditation or with the help of binaurual beats. I have found all of these things helpful to my life and even my overall treatment in the past few months.

Check it out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:54 pm 
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HARRP High Frequency Active Auroral research Program It's in Alaska but there are other sites in other countries as well. It is like one big microwave that has multiple uses. The military bought the rights, & they are only interested in war weapons. You are correct in the application in causing issues with peoples minds & emotions, but it also is used for weather modification. Sounds nuts but being a history lover our government can not surprize me anymore. I mean Hitler was the 1st to use fluoride to keep the jews calm, funny the US would bring over all Hitler's scientists after the war.Yeah fluoride is for our teeth, LOL!!Fluoride was the # one ingredient in the old rat poison.Hitler was a big fan of Walt Disney & use propaganda movies to promote his war on the Jews. TV PROGRAMING.Six super rich men own every TV station, music company ect...Only takes a few minutes to research HARRP or GMO food, weather modification, how the federal banks are really private, one of my favorites is the class action lawsuit against the military for its use of LSD & mind control experiments. Anyone remember the movie Jacobs later or conspiracy theory? Movies on real events, project bluebird, or MK ultra mind control, monarch mind control, all the same thing.Thats why celebs have bird tattoos & have butterflies on their faces & albums. Believe me if i were reading this for the 1st time i would think CRAZY, but like i said easy to research & will totally take your mind off drugs/subs!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:15 pm 
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A simple tinfoil hat prevents all attempts at mind control. I've got mine on right now!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:23 am 
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uniquename wrote:
Movies on real events, project bluebird, or MK ultra mind control, monarch mind control, all the same thing.Thats why celebs have bird tattoos & have butterflies on their faces & albums. Believe me if i were reading this for the 1st time i would think CRAZY, but like i said easy to research & will totally take your mind off drugs/subs!


Dude... methinks you need to take your Zyprexa STAT.

Psychosis is one lonely lonely world :?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:46 am 
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Romeo your post seriously made me pee a little...lol


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:48 am 
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ive got my trusty tinfoil hat on!!!!!


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OMG!!!! The GOVERNMENT made me get my bird tattoo????

I need tinfoil and depends pronto...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:24 pm 
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CIA Special Research Project Bluebird 1952
July 29, 2012 in Central Intelligence Agency

The following formerly classified document from 1952 on the CIA’s Project BLUEBIRD, an offshoot of Project MKULTRA which focused on hypnosis and behavior modification as a means of preventing Agency employees from providing intelligence to adversaries, was obtained .The Appendices to BLUEBIRD provide full proof of the fact that the Manchurian Candidate is real, and has been created by the CIA and military. The documented mind control research includes putting brain electrodes in children as young as 11 years old and controlling their behavior from remote transmitters; giving 150 mcg of LSD per day to children age 7-11 for weeks and months at a time; building safe houses where CIA personnel watched prostitutes turn tricks with customers - the prostitutes gave their customers LSD without the customers' knowledge; wiping out memories with electric shock, and using animals with implanted brain electrodes as delivery systems for chemical and biological weapons from the CIA Freedom of Information Act Reading Room.
Why am i nuts? I didn't do these things, i learned about them them in sociology class at COLLEGE, jeezzzzz!!!! I will copy & paste some more :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Major aspects of the program are kept secret for alleged reasons of "national security." Yet there is no doubt that HAARP and electromagnetic weapons capable of being used in warfare do exist. According to the official HAARP website, "HAARP is a scientific endeavor aimed at studying the properties and behavior of the ionosphere, with particular emphasis on being able to understand and use it to enhance communications and surveillance systems for both civilian and defense purposes." The ionosphere is the delicate upper layer of our atmosphere which ranges from about 30 miles (50 km) to 600 miles (1,000 km) above the Earth's surface.
HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction.

Radio Waves strong enough to cause earthquakes are controlled by the U.S. military.

It’s the largest ionospheric heater in the world. Capable of heating a 1000 square kilometer area of the ionosphere to over 50,000 degrees. It’s also a phased array. Which means it’s steer-able and those waves can be directed to a selected target area. What they have found is that by sending radio frequency energy up and focusing it, as they do with these kinds of instruments, it causes a heating effect. And that heating literally lifts the ionosphere within a 30 mile diameter area therein changing localized pressure systems or perhaps the route of jet streams. Moving a jet stream is a phenomenal event in terms of man being able to do this. The problem is we cannot model the system adequately. Long term consequences of atmospheric heating are unknown. Changing weather in one place can have a devastating downstream effect. And H.A.A.R.P. has already been accused of modifying the weather.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:42 pm 
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n 1963 Dr Robert Becker explored effects of external magnetic-fields on brainwaves showing a relationship between psychiatric admissions and solar magnetic storms. He exposed volunteers to pulsed magnetic-fields similar to magnetic-storms, and found a similar response. US 60 Hz electric power ELF waves vibrate at the same frequency as the human brain. UK 50 Hz electricity emissions depress the thyroid.Our brains are extremely vulnerable to any technology which sends out ELF waves, because they immediately start resonating to the outside signal by a kind of tuning-fork effect. Puharich experimented discovering 7.83 Hz (earth´s pulse rate) made a person ‘feel good´ producing an altered-state. 10.80 Hz causes riotious behaviour and 6.6 Hz causes depression. Puharich made ELF waves change RNA and DNA, breaking hydrogen bonds to make a person have a higher vibratory rate. He wanted to go beyond the psychic 8 Hz brainwave and attract psi phenomena. James Hurtak, who once worked for Puharich, also wrote in his book The Keys of Enoch that ultra-violet caused hydrogen bonds to break and this raised the vibratory rate.Puharich presented the mental effects of ELF waves to military leaders but they would not believe him. He gave this information to certain dignitaries of other Western nations. The US govt burned down his home in New York to shut him up and he fled to Mexico. However Russians discovered which ELF frequencies did what to the human brain and began zapping the US Embassy in Moscow on 4 July 1976 with electromagnetic-waves, varying the signal, including focusing on 10 Hz. (10 Hz puts people into a hypnotic state, Russians and North Koreans use this in portable mind-control machines to extract confessions.

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Estabrooks admitted in 1971 to creating hypnotic couriers and programmed multiple personalities for Military Intelligence purposes in this 1971 Science Digest article. MUST READ!!

- Start of Cold War and Korean War in particular gave a big boost to mind control research with the emergence of 'Brain Washing' as a common term. Supposedly a development of the dastardly Chi-Coms, the term was actually coined by a magazine writer later found to be on the CIA payroll as an agent of influence. Postulating a 'brainwashing gap' The CIA got the go-ahead for research into countering communist mind control efforts and developing their own to aid in the espionage wars.

- Hypnosis, drugs, and psycho-surgery; separately and combined, were the tools of this quest for the ultimate truth serum on the one hand, and the capability to create an agent who could not have his or her mission tortured out of them, or even be aware that they were carrying secret information given to them in an altered state of consciousness. More and more sophisticated drugs were experimented with, such as LSD, Ketamine, and Psilocybine. Lobotomy and the implantation of electrodes were considered as methods for creating a compliant agent. Electro-Convulsive Shock, combined with LSD, sedation for days at a time, and constantly replaying the patient’s own voice through helmet-mounted headphones was a notorious Canadian researcher’s recipe for mind control.

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