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 Post subject: Little to no withdrawl??
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:05 pm 
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I am on day 5 of no subs after 4 years of taking them. I slowly made it to .25 mg allowed two weeks to get comfy and then stopped. I feel ok.. Not great, some cramps, some creepy crawlies, definitely not good sleep, anxiety.. But all very very mild and am able to work, take care of my three kids.. I have been taking short walks and drinking plenty of water and vitamin C.. And I'm good.. Happy, ok... Is it possible that the worst is over?? Five days strong wondering if I'm gonna wake up sick as a dog!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Everyone is different! Did you take .25 daily or twice a day? I quit at that dosage every 12 hours. I have every WD symptom and Day 3 was HELL! It souds to me you MAY be one of the lucky ones! Though I was only on them for 20 months, not sure if it hits later with longer use or not. But I think the important part is the taper on how quickly your WD's hit. Good luck! Keep us posted.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Yes withdrawals can and do hit later. I met someone at my local AA meetings who stopped from 0.25 and her withdrawals started 10 days later can you believe. She was on sub for 15 months total.

There is a key worker there who says that the ones who have the easiest jumps are those who have a rough taper pshycally and somewhat mentally. Those who do not have much in the way of withdrawals during their taper they are the ones who tend to suffer and feel withdrawals for a very long time. I think this comes down to all that half life built up... PAWS is not related to a taper at all, they tend to hit whether you taper or not.

There are not very many lucky ones at all, what can work in people's favor is age and short stay on sub. Those over 24 (older you get harder and longer WDs/PAWS are) tend to suffer the most.

I read a quote on another forum where someone said "tapering is just slowly vading in a cold pool of ice- whereas cold turkey is just diving straight into a cold pool of ice" She had done the cold turkey and taper method, and felt the affects were more harsh when she tapered, but end result was the same for her. Experiences seem to vary to each individual, just goes to show nothing is factual when it comes to sub withdrawals, the PAWS and weaning.


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 Post subject: .25 every 24 hours
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:54 am 
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I took it on e a day and that's it. I was originall on twice a day. Once I got down to 2mg I started taking only once a day and used it as part of a taper. Example, went from about 2 mg in th am and 2 mg in the pm to about 3 mg in the am. One of the things I focused on was not only the meds but also the habit of it. What people don't understand is that if you take a vitamin daily for two weeks and skip ur body will let u know on skip day u forgot. Suddenly ur fully aware!! So, I took everything into consideration.. When I was down to 1 mg I started changing the time I took it daily to try and quit the time habit before I got to the jump. In my mind I knew it was going to be hard after four years so if I could take away some of the mind fuck (pardon the expression) that would be one less thing to knock me down. I also kept on vitamins and drinking lots of water (I'm not a water drinker) and drinking vitamin C.. I was taking vitamin c but for some reason drinking it seems to help me more. Day two was really bad mostly because when I would get over not taking it my annoying subconscious would chime in and remind me that I didn't take my meds.. I'd get past it, and then again my subconscious would remind me!! Day four got thru with few reminders... I'm at day 6.. I'm ok but very aware of where all my joints meet. (Hope that makes sense) I make sure that I go outside for a little and walk and get some good ole fashion vitamin D.. I'm ok.. Not wonderful but ok.. Mentally much better than I have been focusing on my goal!! I think the Doctor really knows what he's talking about when he says that there really is no proof that the longer ur on the harder it is. I've been on 4 years and to be 100 percent honest I still had 24 subs in my script left which would last me prolly a year at the pc I was breaking off!! I'm 34, four years of subs, 6 days with just my vitamins, and praying to god that the worst is not yet to come.. My advice to anyone that wants to get off is to go slow!! The tapering was worst for me when I tried to go too fast!! All in all I'm doing good!! :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Charley, keep posting your progress, please?
I'm new here (1st post) but have been reading for over a month. I've been on Sub's. for 8 or 9 months?
Had been taking 8mg./day, ( I was prescribed two 8's/day), but as I have no insurance , I simply cannot afford the $246/mo. for 30 8mg's.($492/mo. if I were to take two 8'S/day!)
I started my taper a few weeks ago and am now down to 2mg./day.
I am keeping a chart/log of my taper, along with how I feel each day. Perhaps when I'm done I'll copy and paste it into a NEW post?
Anyhow, reading what everyone else is going through helps me know what to anticipate.
Thanks,
jon


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Yes please keep us updated!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:43 pm 
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It is quite naive statement your Doctor made about no proof that the longer you take subs the harder it is, this is just wishful thinking and unrealistic. It is better to be realistic so then you do not have hopes which end up being false and the person going in a state of shock, it's better to know what to expect so you can be prepared.

Of course the harder it gets to get off any opiate, medicine and substance the longer you take it, top that up with middle age it gets even more harder. Usually the ones under 25 seem to recover quicker. And around 26 and it starts to get difficult..Folks in their 30s and over struggle ever so more.

It is logic that the longer your receptors are occupied with strong long acting meds such as sub the more recovery in duration you will need to go through. There was someone who was on sub for 3 years and took her 2 years to get over the hump, and there was another person on sub for 4 years and his PAWS lasted well over 3 years, this is why so many relapse as they do not have that extra will power to wait for so long to recover. Both individuals tapered down to 0.125mgs and 0.25mgs respectively.. None of them were on doses higher then 2mgs. and 6mgs

Noway can a taper eradicate 6 months or years of PAWS, just does not make any sense it and has no logic to it. A taper is still means you are inserting bup in your mind and body, and PAWS is a result of not having bup in your system.... So for a Doctor to give a false statement does not help matters, it may help the patient in regards to moral support, but that does not suffice in the long run, because when you feel you aren't getting better knowing that you should., it can only take a toll on your mind, body and life, not to mention health. But if a patient can accept their symptoms best as possible and be realistic then it just gives patients that extra patients to see through it all.....Nobody wants to hear of long recovery from PAWS, but it's only too common now and people are learning to accept it..Getting through it is another matter...

My advice to anybody is to keep your stay on bup short as possible, perhaps not even go that road... Not every addict needs sub in my opinion, if they can somehow read peoples experiences, know what can happen and what symptoms or withdrawals can creep up then they can make more of an informed decision in what route to take to get over their drug of choice.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:27 am 
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Icarus, I find it amusing that you fault Charley's doctor for making a statement about there being no proof that the longer you take subs the harder it is. You make unsubstantiated claims about sub all the time with nothing to back them up except your experience and the people you say you've spoken to about their experiences.

Case in point, and I'm just going to list a couple of your statements from this thread alone:

"Those who do not have much in the way of withdrawals during their taper they are the ones who tend to suffer and feel withdrawals for a very long time."

"Of course the harder it gets to get off any opiate, medicine and substance the longer you take it, top that up with middle age it gets even more harder. Usually the ones under 25 seem to recover quicker. And around 26 and it starts to get difficult..Folks in their 30s and over struggle ever so more."

Really? You attribute the first statement to a "key worker" at AA. I'm not sure where your information is coming from for the second statement. You may think that all of your suppositions are logical and reasonable, but there are quite a few people on this forum whose experiences contradict your line of thinking. So you go on their threads and tell them that they are wrong, their doctor's are wrong, etc. If anyone starts a thread about how their taper and final detox from sub went smoothly and easily you are there to tell them that they are mistaken.

Well, just as you are here to further your agenda that people only stay on sub for a short period of time if at all, I feel compelled to offer some perspective about your opinions.

So, yes! Some people have a miserable and terrible time tapering and/or withdrawing from sub. For some people, sub seems almost toxic to their system and they feel terrible while on it. On the other hand, many people have a decent to good experience on sub. People like the original poster in this thread don't have much trouble when they do a long slow taper and then jump off. There are some people who have been on sub for several years and don't have much trouble tapering off.
Unless, of course, all the people who report that here are lying.

I'm not an expert on suboxone. My only goal on this forum is to support people who come here for help, to keep the forum free of spam and trolls, and to remind members not to take every opinion as gospel, even though they probably don't need me to remind them of that. :)

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:10 am 
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Sorry but I will never rely on scientific studies or wait for them to come out when comes to pharmaceutical meds. I rather trust and believe the people who have first hand experience. Just because there is no scientific data to back people's experience does not mean it's not true or not prevalent... In my opinion it's like saying show me evidence the sky is blue, or show me scientific evidence that heroin gives you withdrawals.. I really feel for the folks who turn away from these sorts of issues and rely on studies, you're only kidding yourself, just rise above it and accept the reality. If you keep thinking like this then it will not give you a fabulous life..The realistic people are the ones who have a chance to succeed in whatever goal they aim for and have chances to be happy.

People such as my doctor and key-workers work with sub patients daily, and for a very long time, they certainly know what they are talking about, they do not need to assume or make things up, they judge by each individuals experience and case, so yes I look at them as data and studies, that's as clear cut evidence as you can get..If it was just 1 or 2 then you can think it can be exceptional cases, but the fact of the matter is that is not, if anything it's the norm.


Any sane Doctor or an long term bup or methadone patient will accept the longer you take any medicine especially an opiate the harder it is to recover, this is fact, do not need to be Einstein to figure this out.

I have met more people who have struggled to get off sub then those who have not, and I can promise you I have met many. Even those who taper down have struggled...For crying out loud nobody wants to suffer PAWS after putting in hard work i.e taper but the fact is people do, and there is really no point in being indenial about this. Some may have super edoctrine system and win the lotto, but it just does not work that for people. I never suggested anybody who takes bup will suffer getting off it, but there are more horror stories then non-horror stories regarding sub.

I do not know if I can post a link here but it talks about few people going through suicide urges after getting off sub, infact 1-2 people have actually taken their own life because of sub PAWS. They complained about sub side affects so they must have believed it was related to their stay on sub... If I can post the link I will. I am just saying it's a problem then not a problem, many people do find it hard to get off, and the older you get the harder it is. This is not just my opinion but several's, and it is becoming more evident everyday.

Hope you can find peace within yourself folks and beat this.


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 Post subject: So far so good
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:35 am 
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Thanks Amy.. It was not my doctor that said they have not found it to be harder to stop subs the longer your on.. It's the doc that started the forum that I saw that... I'm 34 years old, on subs for four years, three of which were 16mg.. I'm on day 7 this morning and other than the kink in my neck.. I'm good!! :) I tapered very slow and stopped at .25 and honestly searching for when I will get hit with WD... I think what really helped me is I wasn't at risk of running out, my doc wasn't gonna take me off.. It was just time for me and I went slow!! Some days of tapering were harder than others so when I would get miserable I would take an additional piece to make me better.. I would never take more than what the last taper was at and I wouldn't need an additional pc every day. So lets say you taper from1.5 to 1 mg.. After three days you are very uncomfortable.. Take .25 and wait.. Feel better??? Ok.. Next day you may not need the extra .25... After a week or two you have dropped to 1mg comfortably and don't need the little cruch... Get comfortable.. Cut bk to .75... Couple days later not so good..take .25 to get thru.. I mean its not an exact science, I'm no expert, all I can say is I am at day 7 and I feel soo much better than day 2 (which was my really bad mind fuck day) better than day 4.... Day 5 better than 4, day 6 better than 5... I think you get my point!! Some things that we don't consider are... When we are sick we don't want to eat and drink.. What does No fluids do? Makes us sick.. i don't drink alot of water on a healthy day so trust me thats the last thing i wanted but I drank lots of water and OJ...I took extra vitamins.. I forced myself to get up and walk even for just a few minutes.. My thoughts were that if I was going to be sick from something it was not going to be sick from me not doing everything I can do to try and fight it!!! I think we set ourselves up to fail... Scaring ourselves into WD.. Worrying about every little not so good feeling and thinking, "is this it? Are they coming?oh goodness I'm getting sick" and before you know it you are having full blown WD symptoms and u can't take it so you go back up on ur dose and have to start all over again.. I was on subs for almost two years and down to 1 mg... I was bk up to 16 mg in no time.. I wasn't ready, I was pushing myself too hard for the wrong reasons!! This time I put no pressure on myself, I set a goal with only a "in the near future" as my date and went.. I mean honestly I thought I'd be done a month ago BUT it didn't work that way.. That's ok.. I got to .25, skipped, took .25... And now its day 7 with nothing!! Insomnia sucks but something worst than that? Insomnia and sick.. I have trouble sleeping but not because creepy crawlies or stomach pains.. Just can't sleep!! If you really want to stop then allow yourself time.. Do it comfortably, don't beat urself up, do not go above your last successful taper dose, and do all you can to stay healthy!! It makes sense doesn't it? No science, no documentation, just my experience. But I am all the things that should make it worst right?? 34 and four years on subs..??? Good luck to everyone.. I will let you know if I wake up in a few days feeling like hell.. But for now, still good!! :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:00 am 
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Charley,
Very well stated. "I mean its not an exact science."

I can identify with everything you said, and it all makes perfect sense.
Thank you for the quick follow up.
Don't be a stranger as I'm just a little behind you on the taper & I really look forward to how you're doing!
thank you!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:12 am 
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Good for you Charley, I'm very happy to hear that you're doing we'll. I too have been on subs for a long time(6 years, I'm 32) and have tapered down to .125mg a day. I actually plan on jumping off on Tuesday since I've already planned some time off work. I hope to have the same experience that you've had. I'm glad to hear that you are and continue to do well. Please keep us updated as I will also add to my original thread when I jump in a few days.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Hi Charley,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your great posts!!

If you haven't experienced any kind of serious wd by now, you're not going to. You did a great taper and you are now reaping the rewards of your taper.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:33 pm 
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I am 38, was on subs for 3 years. I started at 32 mg/day, and weaned down to about 2mg/day. Honestly, the withdrawal was not nearly as bad as I read all over the internet that it could be. There was not a day that I couldn't function, and go about my daily business. Now, I can admit that I have only been off of them a month. Perhaps the PAWS might kick in and make me feel differently. But as of now, I can say that sub was the EASIEST withdrawal I have ever had. Maybe because I've dealt with alcohol withdrawal too many times, and the sub wd was a walk in the PARK compared to that. I don't want to discount any one's withdrawal symptoms, but I can personally say that I didn't experience the hell-on-earth feeling that I have in previous withdrawals. Would I like to sleep more? Yep, I can admit to that. I can also say that I still have a bit of restless legs at a month off sub. But in comparison, suboxone withdrawal was much more mental for me than anything else.

Charley, hang in there!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Freedom....thanks for chiming in!

Alcohol w/d...OMG. :shock: ... I had 2 or 3 gran mal seizures in my life from that...unconscious....ambulance...losing by bowel & bladder functions.....ending up in the hospital for days. Rehabs for alcohol= 4 or 5 times.

I pray I have the same symptoms you & Charley here have/had from SUB.

This thread is making me feel much more comfortable for when I do JUMP, as Alcohol was the absolute WORST!

Like you say, "much more mental"...THANK YOU!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:57 pm 
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johnny, did the suboxone kill your alcohol cravings? My biggest fear in going off suboxone is that the alcohol cravings return. I was an alcoholic long before I was an opiate addict. And if you have been down the road of alcohol withdrawal, I think you will find sub withdrawal much more tolerable. Like I said, there wasn't a day that I couldn't function. And I have spent up to 10 days in bed, shaking like a lunatic, over alcohol withdrawal. Wean down, if you can, and it should be fine. I was so so so afraid to go thru sub withdrawal, but I found it was not anywhere near as bad as I had read. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:53 pm 
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I think it was Icarus who brought up the notion of PAWS magically appearing months and months after opiate wd. From what I understand and experienced, acute wd turns into PAWS. If you made it through your acute wd phase and you feel fine now, PAWS won't magically pop up and bite you in the ass a few months down the road.

PAWS is not always a component of opiate wd, I don't know why, but I know a few people on this board who jumped off a low dose of Suboxone and had mild wd for several days, but no PAWS at all after their initial wd period. PAWS stands for Post Acute Wd Syndrome in case anyone was wondering.

Freedom, when I first started going to my addiciton counselor, he told me something about alcoholics that I didn't know. Apparently, in the alcoholics body, they metabolize alcohol into an opiate like substance. It's not as simple as I just put it, but it's something along those lines. I used to have an article about it, but I think it's on my work computer, I'm at home now so I don't have access to it. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Laddertippers story. She used to frequent this forum a lot. Anyway, she was never an opiate addict, she was an alcoholic. She spent years and years on Suboxone, then she tapered and quit. Within a year of quitting Suboxone, she had a major relapse onto alcohol.

I'm absolutley not trying to scare you, I'm just trying to give you some facts so you stay informed and stay vigilant against your addiction.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:04 am 
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freedom wrote:
johnny, did the suboxone kill your alcohol cravings? My biggest fear in going off suboxone is that the alcohol cravings return. I was an alcoholic long before I was an opiate addict.


To answer your question.."Yes." (not what you wanna hear I'm sure.)

My story is long & this isn't my thread. I was an alcoholic long before an opiate addict too. I got free of alcohol around 1998. 10 years sober I gradually turned to Percs. Then I had a back injury (herniated disc) in 2008, the same time I lost my job, health ins., house I built, then bankruptsy. I said "Fuck everything/everyone" & picked up the bottle. It only took 3 months to put myself back in rehab. Once out of rehab...I would get anything I could get my hands on for the back pain and the mental anguish/depression from losing everything. Ultimately I ended up on methadone. While withdrawing from M-done I found myself so lethargic I would drag myself to work and could barely function. A friend handed me a Sub. 8mg. & WHALLAH....all the w/d's disappeared, i felt brand new. I went to my doctor & told him EVERYTHING & pleaded for this wonder drug Suboxone. He put me on 16.mg./day, but could only afford 8mg./day.

Now I'm at a point where I'd like to save some money ($246/mo.) for Sub's. If I can't do a full jump, maybe I can live with 2 mg./day? I can afford that. However, after researching for 2 months now on THE LONG TERM USE Sub., it's w/d's, and PAWS...I'm thinkin' i should get off this stuff before it's too hard to (only been on it 8 or 9 months?).
But, now I'm hearing it does not matter HOW LONG you've been on it.....getting off it is a long miserable process.
So, I'm just gonna TRY to do it (jump). If I can't, I'll live with the smallest dose I can live with comfortably (and afford)?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:49 am 
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Romeo, thanks for sharing that about laddertripper. I remember the taper thread, but never heard the story about her relapse into alcohol. I also have read that about the body turning alcohol into an opiate like substance. I think it was in a book called "The Tipping Point" but I could be mistaken.

Johnny, if I can do it after 3 years, I would think you could do it. It's a process, for sure, but the PAWS cant be worse than what we have been before in coming off of drugs/alcohol. It just takes time. But I'm with you, if it means a relapse, I would stick with a low dose of suboxone forever. I'm certainly not interested in going back to full blown addiction!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:57 am 
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I guess this is day 16.. My subconscious finally shut up and I stopped counting! I know most people that are recovering know the date very well but for me.. I'm feeling great today and no desire to do anything different!! My sleep pattern sucks pretty bad and I have the attention span of a three year old BUT.. I'm not sick and that's a good thing!! I made it past day 11 with no side effects creeping up on me! Lol... Not that I thought I could be doing as well as I was and have that happen.. It's funny when you start to realize all the habits we start.. Same time dose, our brains know exactly what time it is when it comes to our meds.. I think it helped me to make changing my dosing time and going from twice a day to once a day as part of my taper.. When I went down to 2mg instead of 1mg twice daily I took 2mg once daily.. And even tho they say no WD really cuz ur taking the same amount.. For me, at 2pm daily I'd start sweating as my brain realized I hadn't taken my afternoon dose.. It's amazing to me that there are so many factors you have to consider when trying to stop.. The motion of your hand putting meds in your mouth becomes habit.. The taste of subs that I once hated becomes a flavor that i craved, the time I took it.. changing all these habits and taking vitamins to curb the urge really helped me.. At one point in my life I would have said I was spontaneous and now I realize that we really are creatures of habit! I was so scared of what this was going to be like.. When I stopped rushing, pushing, and beating myself up I was able to let go and I have no desire to turn back. Subs kept me sober, gave me my quality of life back, and when I was strong enough to do it alone, I was able to stop!! I'm very lucky that I wasn't forced to stop and that my insurance made it so it wasn't a large monthly expense, this kept at least that piece
off me. If at all possible, take it slow listen to your body not so much your mind (the mind fk is pretty harsh) and do everything you can possibly do to stay healthy.. Worked for me!! Just so I'm clear this is just my story. It wasn't even something my dr told me to try, I told her what I did and she tells others my story.. She doesn't know what it's like she can only listen to people like us and try to help other people like us.. Forgive yourself for the things you've done, said, people you have hurt, those who hurt you.. Can't change the past you can only move forward and try not to make the same mistakes.. If your alive today then your ahead of the game and be grateful for that!!


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