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 Post subject: Say what?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:20 am 
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I'll bite!

:shock: You do realize, this being your first post, that you should have at the very least informally introduced yourself; particularly in light of the contents of your post. Having said that... I am familiar with the concept of evaporation, and no, I don't think I'll be injesting ethanol with my Suboxone anytime soon.

Maybe you did mean well and I'm just a grouchy taperer, but your post didn't seem to contain any useful information.

Also, I'm pretty sure that cellulose acetate is made from processed wood pulp, and another technique for producing cellulose acetate involves treating cotton with acitic acid, using sulfuric acid as a catalyst.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:52 am 
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Oh no you didn't... I can't relate to your grouchiness because I never get/got irritable while WDing from anything. In fact, quite the opposite. And what the hell are the "contents of [my] post" that would warrant an introduction? I'm on the fucking internet. For all you know I'm Jerry fucking Seinfeld.

You are very transparent.

Quote:
I don't think I'll be injesting ethanol with my Suboxone anytime soon.


Why? If you say nothing else PLEASE answer this for me.

Quote:
Say what?


Which part did you not understand? Which part was unclear or unreasonable?

To continue:

It's acetic acid, by the way (talking about useful information). CA it is made by reacting cellulose with acetic anhydride. Acetic acid is simply the solvent (mostly).

And methamphetamine is made using various "toxic" chemicals as well (I'm talking about legitimate methamphetamine) but that doesn't mean people who take Desoxyn are exposed to any significant amount of them. My point is, just because the cellulose used to make cellulose acetate is obtained from wood pulp doesn't mean that there is much IF ANY in the final product.

So the "cotton and wood pulp" thing is just a mish mash of different things. Cotton because it is cellulose and wood pulp because that is where they get the cellulose from in reality. Many "common knowledge" things are this way.

I offered my knowledge of chemistry in an attempt to help but I was met with bullshit. I work as a tutor and, trust me, this is nothing new. People don't seem to trust those that are trying to tell them that what they thought they knew is actually wrong or way more complicated (and some just simply have no thirst for knowledge). I haven't experienced it yet but some students get VERY angry when they are told that one of their beliefs is wrong. We have had violence in our 'tutoring lab' before over such things.

Since my post contained no useful information I assume you are saying you know more than I do on such matters and don't need or wish to read anything I have to say. Therefore I will probably be leaving. I wish I could give you the benefit of the doubt but you're post pissed ME off.

I mean, you responded in this way TO A COMPLETELY FUCKING NEUTRAL POST! What the hell is wrong with you? Jerk.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:02 pm 
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This will be my last message to you, and I'll try to keep it as short as possible because I really think we're just wasting each others time.

You began your last post with the following, and I quote:

"Oh no you didn't... I can't relate to your grouchiness because I never get/got irritable while WDing from anything. In fact, quite the opposite."

Your right, it is quite obvious that you can't relate; not at all. "...never got irritable... quite the opposite." Are you kidding me? That second sentence implies that at some point in your life you have taken a potentially habid forming drug over a timespan that would likely cause dependence or addiction, and not only did you not feel like crap when you stopped, but you felt better than ever. I think it's fair to conclude that you show limited insight regarding opiate addiction and the symptoms that occur when use is discontinued. It's hell buddy! It may be that you were just unclear, and that what you meant to say was that you never took a narcotic - or other potentially addictive drug - over an extended period, so you can't empathise with the pain and discomfort that others feel upon cessation. In which case, you still can't relate.

You know what really got me going? Someone who is tapering contacted me and was a little distraught after reading your post. The only part that stuck with them was when you said "There are a few concerns I have about the liquid taper method (although it probably isn't a huge deal)." The people who post here are in pain, and we are quite often second guessing ourselves as it is... we don't need someone to stoke the fire. The chemistry lesson was impressive, but I'm afraid those little tidbits of information are not very useful without mention of some kind of practical application.

Oh, and by the way... there's no need for the F-bomb my friend. I learned a long time ago that everyone's a tough guy when they're behind bars, or hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

See ya,

The Jerk :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:48 am 
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I say the "F-bomb" in person when I get angry. No anonymity needed.

Also, I take that back, I did get irritable when I tried to stop smoking.

Quote:
, and not only did you not feel like crap when you stopped, but you felt better than ever.


What a strange conclusion. Is non-irritability synonymous with feeling "better than ever"?

And I meant exactly what I said. I don't get irritable during opiate withdrawal. Not a single bit. I get depressed and almost excessively nice/sympathetic (on the rare occasion I want to be around someone). I don't understand when people get angry during it because I have never experienced that. I mean, is being a dick to others a requirement of opiate withdrawal? Depends on the person--like most everything else--I guess.

Quote:
Someone who is tapering contacted me and was a little distraught after reading your post. The only part that stuck with them was when you said "There are a few concerns I have about the liquid taper method (although it probably isn't a huge deal)."


So it is your position that we should avoid saying things (even if they are the truth) just so people don't get scared? If so, you are in direct opposition to everything I believe.

I thought it was clear that the only concern is that not all of the buprenorphine would dissolve. Is this really a bad concern, though, if the point is to take less? I left that consideration to the reader but I guess that was wrong. NOTE: THE CONCERN WAS NOT NECESSARILY A BAD OR URGENT CONCERN. Shall I give an example? Okay. If you dissolve an 8 mg pill in 8 mL of a 10% (volume to volume) water to ethanol solution you eventually get a white powder precipitating(?) and settling on the bottom of the container. What is the composition of this precipitate? Is it just microcrystalline cellulose or does it contain a few μg of buprenorphine? I think these are questions that should be asked and possibly answered. They can be answered with extremely long, involved and complex chemical equations IF the exact composition of the pill is known down to the μg but this isn't practical (seriously), especially with such small amounts of substances.

Quote:
but I'm afraid those little tidbits of information are not very useful without mention of some kind of practical application.


And why is that a bad thing? Many things we know had no practical application at the beginning but began as a curiosity. For example Special Relativity, the photoelectric effect and perhaps the majority of theoretical physics. I'm not saying what I just asked or said is as important as these things, of course; I'm just saying that why is an obvious, immediate and direct practical application necessary to raise a question or concern? That seems very shortsighted to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:46 pm 
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I'm still holding at .50mgs a day.

I feel much better than I did after the third and fourth day of lowering my dosage. The lower the dose, the longer it seems to take to bounce back.

One thing is certain - I definitely feel my best when I'm exercising. I've also noticed that on the days that I don't exercise, I feel markedly worse. My withdrawal symptoms are negligible - a little runny nose in the morning, legs feel like they're throbbing (that feeling has all but disappeared in the last couple of days), some nights I'm only sleeping 5 hours or so (this probably has much more to do with me cutting my dose of xanax in half than the taper), I'm prone to be irritable at times (see the above exchange) and I still have some lingering aches and pains. I have experienced no sweating, sneezing, nausea, kicking legs, or significant depression during my taper.

To sum it up, this thing seems quite doable so far.

PS - Don't let the above pissing contest I engaged in influence you - if you see any information that someone has provided that you may find useful in your recovery, it would be foolish not to use it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:15 pm 
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I don't understand how this is a "pissing contest" or how this could, in any way, cause someone to just completely disregard the liquid method. Please, explain.

I have been using that method off and on for the better part of 2 years (albeit with some ethanol mixed in; and obviously I wasn't very rigid with my schedule b/c I'm still doing it) and it works fine. BUT, if your goal is to completely maximize your efficiency--like if you have hardly any Suboxone left--then I think you should take into consideration what I said. Or you could just add enough liquid to dissolve everything. But of course that becomes problematic when you are trying to use as little liquid as possible, right?

I was impressed that someone figured out the that cigarette filter method. I went to go get some yesterday and I started measuring out my doses today. I have about 13 8 mg pills left. I figured that I can taper for 6 months on that amount down to 0.1 mg and then just stop. That is my plan. Every is ready to go and that's what I'm going to do.

One problem, however, that I have with this method is that from 9a-8p, 4 days a week, I go to school and work. I am around people pretty much that whole time. With the cig. filter method I probably won't be able to talk and I can't really spit it out in front of everyone. I'll probably just end up swallowing the filter after it's spent.

EDIT

I also don't understand how you are able to obtain Xanax and Suboxone at the same time. My doctor was extremely reluctant to give me any benzos apparently because someone is telling doctors not to prescribe them simultaneously. She ended up giving me a prescription for 10 0.5 mg Klonipins, which was more than enough for 6 months or so (actually it's been nearly a year so far and I still have 3 left). I can really only take a quarter of one at a time or it makes me really tired and sleepy (and makes me feel like shit). Does anyone else experience that? I even hate taking benzos during withdrawals. Although they allow me to sleep for a few hours at a time, it's the worst sleep ever and when I wake up I feel really bad.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:13 pm 
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Bronze,

I decreased by .05mgs a few days ago. Now taking .45/day split into two, even doses as you suggested. I feel and sleep a lot better now that my doses are more evened out. I can feel only the slightest WD, a chill or a leg twitch here and there, but no depression, sweats, GI distress, headaches etc. You are correct, this is very tolerable. And if I distract myself, unnoticeable.

Thank you so much for the advice, it's worked out beautifully!!

Everyone is different, but looking back at my tapering charts (I keep a list of amounts dosed, # of days at that dose, any WD symptoms), I noticed that as long as I kept my decreases at less than about 13%, I would only feel the slightest WD. If I decreased any faster than every 4th day, things started to kick up a bit: night sweats, skin crawling, that nervous/speedy feeling. So I do think it's important to stay at each new level for at least 4-5 days if you want to avoid the WD.

It is important to note that my WD symptoms are really bad, perhaps worse than other people's from what I've seen/heard/read. But this is great news for anyone who generally has lighter symptoms, because if I can decrease +/- 10% every 5th day without suffering, than they can most likely do it that quickly without worry!!


Kat,

A taper spreadsheet would be a great help!! Or perhaps a graph that calculates the stackable half-life as you decrease daily amounts? I think your scientific skills could be of great use there.

It is important to remember that people visiting and posting here are in vulnerable situations. They are looking for help and answers at a time when they are trying to battle recovery. If you want people to hear what you have to say, please do not curse at them, insult them, or endlessly argue. That sort of behavior typically just shuts down the listener. Venting or debating a topic is certainly ok, but using kind words and keeping a positive attitude is not only imperative to the therapeutic environment, it is invaluable to a functional, healthy recovery.


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 Post subject: Good day!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:51 pm 
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<b>Schrodinger's Cat</b> I realize now you're in the same boat as the rest of us. So I just wanted to let you know that I really do wish you the best in your taper and eventual recovery.

I've been prescribed Xanax for the last ten years or so. From my understanding, it is true that the combination of Suboxone and any benzo can cause respiratory arrest, particularly with individuals that have little to no tolerance for either drug. So it can be a deadly combination for some who abuse both types of medication - and when I say abuse, I'm not just talking about taking medication that is not prescribed, but those that are prescribed, taking much, much more than is necessary.

The doctor who prescribes the Xanax also gives me a script for Seroquel to help with my sleep disorder, and a prescription for Wellbutrin for depression. I see him for five or ten minutes once every four months. He has no idea that I'm taking the sub, and I have no intention of telling him. He would probably still give me a script if he knew because he thinks I'm actually taking 50mgs of Oxycontin a day anyway, but I don't want to take that chance. Incidentally... years ago when I first told him that my neurologist suggested I start taking the oxy, he said in his opion it was a bad idea. He told me that it was more than likely that I would end up getting hooked on it and have to take it for the rest of my life, even though I had taken opiates in the past and never had a sustance abuse problem with any medication. In retrospect, I gotta say, he was right to be concerned. Funny thing... he is one of only a few doctors in my area that prescribes Suboxone, and it woud be much more convenient to get the sub from him, but as I said, there's no way in hell I'm going to tell him. He and I have mutual friends, and in my mind, the less people that know, the better.

The doctor at the clinic where I get the sub IS aware that I take Xanax, but she also knows that I only take a fraction of what's prescibed to me - .5 to .75mgs per day instead of 4mgs, so it's not a problem.

My distrust of doctors runs deep, I never want to be at anyones mercy, and financially it just makes sense to take less medication than is prescribed. I always keep on hand at least a two year supply of all my meds - that's one thing less that I have to worry about. At times, when I find that I've accumulated too much, and they'll probably go stale before I have the chance to use them, I flush them down the toilet. I know that some people would probably sell their extra meds, but I don't need the money - and having experienced the pain and suffering of addiction... knowing what kind of havoc they have the potential to cause, I'd have to be a real ass to do so.

Well, anyway, that's the deal with my meds.

Since this stuff is obviously fresh in your mind, I'm hoping you'll be able to answer a question for me. When I was in active addiction, there were times when I only had access to hydrocodone (Vicodin). I know what tylenol can do to your liver, so I would always extract as much of it as I possibly could before taking the hydro. When I mix up a batch of solution for my taper, I notice that quite a bit of filler and binding material sinks to the bottom. There's also a film on the surface. Is the partial agonist in sub completely water soluble, or should I shake the bottle before every dose? I have been mixing it prior to dosing, but I've been thinking that by doing so, I may actually be cutting down on the amount of buprenorphine that I'm taking (although I realize that even if that is the case, it may also be true that the amount is negligible). What do you think?

Oh!...about that cat! "...if they don't ever open the box to feed, it'll eventually just be two different kinds of dead." :) That's not verbatim, but it's close enough. (Gaiman?)


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 Post subject: Things are working out
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:03 pm 
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<b>annmarie</b> - I was just on my way out to treat one of the animals in my care, but I saw your post and wanted to let you know that you made my day. I'm so glad that the adjustment has helped you sleep better. We can and will do this.

Hopefully I'll have some time later this evening to post a little more about what's going on with my situation, and hope to hear more about your progress as well.

If you ever feel overwhelmed, don't hesitate to contact me.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:06 pm 
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You're right, my language was harsh and I overreacted.

I am on spring break so I will have some time to make that spreadsheet. I might even create a program that will do the calculations as well. It will be either a simple command line program or a Visual BASIC program with a graphical user interface (more familiar with C than BASIC). I guess I will do both. I always pick a project to work on during spring break to keep me occupied and this will be perfect (with the added benefit that it might actually help someone get of buprenorphine).

The graph/equation for "stacking half-life" sounds fun, I'll start on that as soon as my daughter takes a nap. Just recently I tried to figure out an equation for the cost of Suboxone vs. how many you buy at a local pharmacy. I got close but I don't think they use just one equation (probably two different tiers).

Anyway, I love doing stuff like this so if anyone else has any more ideas, let me know.

Just saw your post bronze:

The buprenorphine in Sub. is only slightly soluble in water. 17 mg/mL in water and 42 mg/mL in ethanol. Compared to other opiate hydrochlorides and other chloride salts, this is EXTREMELY low. As you can see, it seems that, by itself, 8 mg of buprenorphine should have no problem dissolving in even 1 mL of water; but, the problem could lie in something called the "common ion effect". Read about it on wikipedia. There is also something called the "diverse ion effect" (and ionic strength) but it usually increases solubility. The combination of these two effects relative to the concentration/solubility of each component in the pill is what would have to be determined using the most complicated of these equations due to the small amounts and large number of different compounds involved (not to mention bupe. and naloxone are huge molecules, further complicating the matter). Therefore, until I can figure out something definitive, I think you should shake it before each use or application.

And Schrodinger's Cat has to do with something in quantum mechanics called a "wavefunction". Basically, everything in the universe has a wave associated with it. Until you 'measure' something that object only exists as a probability (or wave) that it will exist in a certain place at a certain "speed". In other words, a baseball that is not being measured is a certain mix between flying through the air, sitting on the ground and even falling to the center of the Earth. So, with the cat, if the "killing mechanism" is set up to where the cat's life/death is based on a completely unknown and random event and it is not "measured" it will be both alive and dead at the same time (according to this thought experiment). If the event has a 50/50 probability, then the cat will be 50% alive and 50% dead, sort of. It gets way more complicated. The famous scientist Richard Feynman once said, "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics". He was mostly correct.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:28 pm 
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Bronzey-B,

Glad I added some relief to your taper! It seems I want to change my strategy every so often. Every day I learn something new here!

I think decreasing from smaller amounts of Sub is very different from the decreasing I've done at higher mgs. It's more challenging, for starters. I try to concentrate on being realistic about my progress. It's like "reverse instant gratification" -a nightmare for any addict.

Cat,

It sounds like you would be ppprrrrrfect for helping us figure out some things!! There is an enormous amount of data within these forum posts, plenty of trial and error, and a huge source of test subjects ready to answer any questions. If you can "crunch the numbers" or notice any patterns for success, it would be greatly welcomed!

Like Bronze, I am nervous about mixing the water/Sub solution correctly/accurately. If I'm mixing up 10 doses, I will only use the first 7-8 (I draw up most of it and squirt it into cut up cig filters). I just toss the last bit out because I worry that it's all the Naloxone settling to the bottom. Would the ratio of mgs to mls still be the same even if I don't draw up all the solution? I was thinking I would only be losing a few doses, and would be less likely to get a dose with only the antagonist in it.

I am curious, after taking x Mgs of Sub for x Days, how much Sub is in your system each day? The half-life is 36 hours? maybe? so I would think after taking 1mg every day for 20 days, there would be much more than just a mg in your system.

So when a person "jumps off" at say, .1mg every 24 hrs, how much Sub are they REALLY jumping off of? I bet you could definitely answer that one, I'm just not that great at math and would love your help.

Could you make a spread sheet/graph where we could enter the daily dose and it would compute the actual daily amount that's built up? Could we adjust the daily dose to reflect a gradual taper, and then see how fast our actual amounts would be dropping?

I know that's a lot of questions, but I thought you may appreciate the specificity. Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:26 am 
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It is highly unlikely that you will have a significant amount of naloxone (compared to bupe.) at the bottom of the container. At the least you should have more bupe. than naloxone IF some of the pill isn't dissolving. You shouldn't throw it out. If there is not powder at the bottom then it is all dissolving. If it is all dissolved then the ratio is the same throughout the solution. The definition of solution is that it is homogeneous; meaning it is "the same".

I am almost done with the stacking half-lives spreadsheet. Really it's done but my stubborn ass is trying to figure out a single equation for it. It's hard but I'm working.

And, an answer to your question. 0.1 mg every 24 hours assuming a half-life of 37 hours:

After being on this dose for about 2 weeks you would have 0.28 mg in your bloodstream every time you dosed (as in, including that dose). An interesting note is that if you took 0.05 mg every twelve hours you would reach a "plateau" of 0.25 mg despite it being the same dose daily.

EDIT

I have been working on this ALL NIGHT (off and on). The equation is:

At = d - d*e^(-kt) + A(0)

d = dose
At = Amount in blood total
k = ln(2)/(half-life)
t = time afterwards (in hours)
A(0) = dose

Right now this only works when the period of dosage taking equals the half-life. Better stuff later hopefully. Bedtime.


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 Post subject: Knowledge is power
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:48 pm 
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This information could be very helpful in understanding why, when we stop taking buprenorphine after having tapered to a relatively low dose, we may still experience significant withdrawal symptoms.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the math being what it is, this is how I would interpret things; If someone has tapered down to 1mg of Suboxone per day (which is roughly equivalent to 20 - 30mgs of Oxycontin*) and decides to stop dosing at that level... due to the half-life of Suboxone, their body has actually accumulated 2.72 times that amount. That would be like someone jumping from a daily dose of 54 - 82mgs of Oxycontin.

Makes tapering down to the lowest dose possible seem even more appealing.


Personal update: I slept better last night than I have in over two weeks - eight hours solid. Hardly any leg discomfort, and very slight sniffles in the AM.

Hope everyone is doing well this evening.





*A guide only - can not be exact due to the different mechanisms involved, route of use, individual body chemistry, and degree of absorbsion.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:31 am 
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Exactly. This could very well explain some people's difficulty with quitting even extremely small doses of buprenorphine.

I posted an equation in a different thread if you haven't seen it.

Also, you must realize that using math this simple to describe something extremely complex and with a large number of variables is bound to give a substantial error. Nonetheless, I feel that it is a very good ballpark indicator. Like with most things, attempting to compensate for variables such as: different half-lives in different people, absorption half-life (which is also slightly different for everyone), absorption rate etc... will make the equation so complex as to make it impractical for the average person to compute (and in my opinion giving only a slightly different answer).

In fact, there is a whole field of science dedicated to things like this called pharmacokinetics. It's interesting but very math intensive, so it is not for the faint of heart. There are plenty of very good sources of info on the internet on this subject if anyone is interested (just let me know).


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 Post subject: Spreadsheet is Ready
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:40 am 
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Version 1.0a of the spreadsheet (the next step is an executable program). Ideas and criticisms welcome.

This was scanned with Norton and SUPERAntiSpyware. It's clean.

Word 2007:
SubDosageChart version 1.0a.xlsx

Word 2000 & 2003:
SubDosageChart version 1.0a.xls

TIME FOR SLEEP!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Spreadsheet is Ready
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Schrodinger's Cat wrote:
Version 1.0a of the spreadsheet (the next step is an executable program). Ideas and criticisms welcome.

This was scanned with Norton and SUPERAntiSpyware. It's clean.

...I can't re-post your links...

TIME FOR SLEEP!!!


WOW...

Incredible info SC...So this would mean, that if one were to taper to .25mg/daily, they're ACTUALLY "jumping off" at closer to .675mg, which is the "plateau" for that dose in regards to half-life? If this is the case, my only request would be that the "Amount in blood @ this time (Q)" would default to the plateau, rather than the daily dose, same with "Amount if no other doses taken". This gives us a MUCH more clear idea of when the drug is completely out of our bodies. Thank you!

EDIT: Just a note for others using this tool, make sure you look carefully at the "Interval" slot, it's set to 3hrs, I know most of us dose either every 12/24/36 etc hrs.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Cat,

Thank You So Much!! for figuring all that out:

"And, an answer to your question. 0.1 mg every 24 hours assuming a half-life of 37 hours:

After being on this dose for about 2 weeks you would have 0.28 mg in your bloodstream every time you dosed (as in, including that dose). An interesting note is that if you took 0.05 mg every twelve hours you would reach a "plateau" of 0.25 mg despite it being the same dose daily. "


I knew the stacking half-life was the culprit behind the lengthy WD, but now I also know how much I'm REALLY jumping off from. If I consulted an Opiate Equivalency chart for Bup, I could compare it to prior detoxes and get a rough idea of what I'm really looking at in terms of WD. Your spreadsheet will also allow me to try out different tapers. From looking at your results, I think I will stick with dosing every 12hrs. I need all the help I can get!

I've also found it helpful to keep a record (hour by hour sometimes) of my decrease percentages and any WD symptoms. (I have a very detailed day-by-day file that I can post or save as a .pdf if you're ever interested) But here's a general synopsis: At doses below 1.5 mgs, my body seems to react the same way for 6-10% decreases:

Hours 1-24: Totally Fine
Hours 25-40: Feel Slight WD (yawning, a feeling similar to a slight fever)
Hours 41-55: Peaks to a Moderate WD (rapid heartbeat, tired, slight muscle soreness)
Hours 56-60: Feeling Noticeably Better
Hours 60-On: Feel Fine

This gives me an idea of what to expect after a decrease (they're usually around .05mgs), and I can plan for when the noticeable symptoms will typically hit.

Thanks again, Cat!! Please post any ideas you have about dosing times, decreasing, jumping off, etc.

AM


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:00 am 
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You are correct, DirtRider. And I'll get right on those suggestions of yours--thanks.

To everyone else:

Let us also not forget (something that I failed to mention until now) the actual "bioavailability" of buprenorphine in the Suboxone formulation. Bioavailability is a very complex concept and it is rarely extremely precise. This is the reason there are several different experimentally obtained values for it out there.

For those who don't know bioavailability is how much of a drug is actually absorbed by the body. If you took 10 mg of a drug and it's bioavailability was 30% then, in reality, you would feel the effects of 3 mg and the other 7 mg would be passed through your body with no effect.

Here is some information that may be helpful:

According to this article:

Quote:
Buprenorphine has approximately 30% bioavailability with sublingual administration.


Another article:

Quote:
Studies of sublingual buprenorphine have suggested that 2 and 8mg doses of the solution form (in 30% alcohol) result in approximately 30 and 40% bioavailability, respectively, and the monotherapy tablet form delivers approximately 50% of that provided by the solution. While studies of the relative bioavailability of different buprenorphine forms have examined acute (single) doses of buprenorphine, examination of the relative availability of buprenorphine after at least seven days of dosing has also shown plasma concentrations for monotherapy tablets that were 55% of those produced by alcohol solution. The higher bioavailability of the buprenorphine solution versus tablets is most likely due to alcohol’s ability to enhance penetration in the buccal mucosa. In the present study, after 7 days of dosing the mean peak buprenorphine concentration produced by monotherapy tablets was 62% of that produced by buprenorphine solution—a value not markedly different from the 55% found in an earlier study. However, at week 1 the combination tablet produced a peak
value that was 82% of that produced by solution, and by week 2 this was 93%. Calculations for the AUC0–6 show a
similar pattern—at week 1, the AUC0–6 for the monotherapy tablet was 64% that produced by solution, but the combination
tablet was 79%. By week 2, the AUC0–6 for the combination tablet was 87% of that produced by solution. The diminishing difference between solution and tablets between weeks 1 and 2 appears to be due to a greater decrease in buprenorphine plasma concentrations for solution versus tablets over the two-week period. In addition, there is a greater time to peak concentration for all three forms between weeks 1 and 2. This suggests there is an adaptation that occurs in the buccal environment to the solution form relative to tablets, perhaps in response to the alcohol used for the solution form of buprenorphine. Alternatively, there may be learning or other behavioral changes over time regarding how subjects hold and absorb these sublingual formulations.

In addition to differences between solution and tablets, it appears there may be differences in bioavailability of
buprenorphine monotherapy versus combination therapy tablets. While the latter contains naloxone, it is notable that in the present study naloxone plasma concentrations were essentially undetectable for virtually all samples tested. This occurred despite the administration of a substantial dose of naloxone (2 mg), but is consistent with other work which has shown the sublingual administration of 8/2 mg of buprenorphine/naloxone does not precipitate a withdrawal syndrome in opioid dependent persons, and that the bioavailability of sublingual naloxone is low. The greater availability of buprenorphine
delivered in the combination tablet compared to monotherapy tablet (e.g., Cmax in the first week) suggests that the presence of naloxone in these tablets, or a metabolite of naloxone generated in vivo, is somehow facilitating buprenorphine’s systemic availability, or that the composition of the combination tablet differs in some other significant
manner from the monotherapy tablet. These results provide further data supporting the preferred clinical use of
combination rather than monotherapy tablets, and the low bioavailability of naloxone suggests direct induction with
the combination product should be possible.

Source:

Drug and Alcohol Dependence 74 (2004) 37–43

Relative bioavailability of different buprenorphine
formulations under chronic dosing conditions


Eric C. Strain, David E. Moody, Kenneth B. Stoller
Sharon L. Walsh, George E. Bigelow



Translation: The ethanolic solution produces a much greater bioavailability at first but then tends to get closer to regular Subutex bioavailability due to some unknown effect. Also, the buprenorphine in Suboxone, for some reason, seems to have a higher bioavailability than the bupe. in Subutex.


Quote:
The serum concentration achieved by 16 mg of tablet buprenorphine is higher than that of the 8 mg solution, although differences between physiologic, subjective and objective opioid effects were not noted. The relative bioavailability of tablet versus solution is estimated to be 0.71; thus, with respect to dosing parameters for the tablet, clinicians should consider using less than 16 mg to achieve bioequivalence to the 8 mg solution.


Translation: The liquid formulation they used caused an estimated 29% increase in buprenorphine absorption. (I can't get much more from this article because you have to pay to read the rest)

As an aside, check this out:

Quote:
The article offers information on a study for determining pharmacy willingness to partner with office-based opioid dependence treatment (OBOT) providers in conducting random buprenorphine pill counts. It was found that most pharmacies in the U.S. were willing to participate, 22.3% were unwilling, and 3.7% were unresponsive. As mentioned, pharmacies may be a valuable partner in conducting pill counts to decrease diversion and misuse of buprenorphine from OBOT, particularly in rural areas.

Source:

American Journal on Addictions; Mar2010, Vol. 19 Issue 2, p195-196, 2p

Pharmacy Willingness to Partner with Office-Based Opioid Dependence Treatment Providers in Conducting Random Buprenorphine Pill Counts.

Lofwall, Michelle
Wunsch, Martha
Walsh, Sharon



So, obviously, there is nothing close to a definitive answer as to the bioavailability (at least not one that I can find). If anyone has any information on this, let me know. Also, as always, if you notice any errors please bring them to my attention. And if you need/want copies of any of these articles, let me know and I will send them to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:05 am 
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Ok, that second article really started to hurt my brain, lol.

I completely forgot about bioavailability, which I understand to be the ACTUAL amount of the drug that enters your bloodstream, if it's actually only 30%, then a dose of .25mg only gets you somewhere around .075mg?

Did I read correctly that people doing a liquid taper (WITH WATER ONLY) would have an increased bioavailability? This would be interesting as it would lend to them wanting to taper to a lower dose than the "crumb" takers.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:33 am 
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Cat,
Thanks for posting those articles! Would it be correct to deduce that mixing up a liquid Sub batch with the alcohol added would create something similar to the "Bup Solution" that study used? If so, would it mean that we'd get a better bioavailability in the beginning, with a faster "half-life wind-down" or clearing out of our system? Could this be useful for creating a shorter WD period, since the Sub leaves the body faster?

A lot of questions, I know. You seem to have great information, so I'd love to know what you think.

P.S. Do you know anything about speeding up a detox using Naltrexone, creating a few hours of "rapid withdrawal" to hurry the process along? I've posted about this in another thread, but was wanting to ask you.

Thanks again!!
AM


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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