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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:02 pm 
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I've been experimenting with the liquid taper. Started today. I won't get into my story because its very long and I'm still on the fence if I want to share the whole thing right now.

Here's the particulars. I have a 2.5ML dropper. Lost about .2ML to drippage. Pill dissolved in water, and I took 0.6ML which equated to 0.52MG. oddly, I feel like I took 3x my dose, not sure why but it feels far stronger than a usual 0.5ML which leaves me feeling normal but a bit achy.

Curious why this is. I shook up the syringe often, made sure it looked even, checked for chunks / particles etc. I've read a lot about the method, it sounded like people were pretty sure that the suboxone distributes evenly in the water (I don't see how this is possible though). That said - I'm not sure that it does. Any thoughts on this or more info would help.

I don't have a schedule yet for my taper but I am trying to get off suboxone within the next few months while working. I don't expect it to be easy no matter how I slice it.

Final thought - Seems every time I dose with .25ML or lower, I don't feel anything. Not sure if its just me, but I've tried to taper below .5MG in the past and have been largely unsuccessful mostly due to anything below .5MG feels like im not taking anything. Most of the times I've tried have been from taking .25MG at a time, and then if i feel crappy (I always do) I'll take more until I get as close to feeling normal as possible without passing .5MG. This has gone on for months.

Thanks.

EDIT: Post jump note for first time readers: If you're looking weather the taper has been a success but don't want to read all of the posts, start on page 4.


Last edited by evolvedrevolver on Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:54 pm 
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Hi Evolvedrevolver,

First off I have to say I normally don't type out the full user name of peeps, but yours was cool so I put in the effort. :mrgreen: No promises in the future, though!

I don't have much advice on this topic. I haven't tried the liquid taper as I've always had strips and was afraid it wouldn't work so well without the pills. I'm definitely interested in hearing your experiences with it. Don't be discouraged if you don't get a response right away. I don't know how many here have done the liquid taper. Be patient and you'll probably get some good advice eventually.

I just wanted to encourage you not to get too discouraged with your taper. You are definitely at the critical point where it gets very, very hard. You will eventually adjust to this dose if you stick with it long enough, but it takes a lot of time and patience. I remember what the .25mg dose feels like and it's not fun. I never got completely stable for a 24 hour period at that dose, but I would receive relief for a bit after dosing each day. I'm sorry to hear that you aren't finding that to be true for you. Don't be too hard on yourself with this ER (see, I knew I'd do it), you have obviously put in a lot of work to get to where you are. You are doing very well being able to stick with a taper down to this small of a dose. Do you have a plan for how far down you want to taper before you jump or are you just trying to go until you feel you are ready? Just curious.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you find the answers you need soon.

Q

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:14 pm 
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Hi qhorse,

Thanks. Right now I'm really just on the fence on a few things. I've been skipping days but I'm not sure I want to continue to do this now that I've begun the liquid taper. I understand the value of it, and I'm pretty good with math so I know how the half life / bupe builds up in your system, and the benefits of skipping.

I guess my main issue right now is that the start of the liquid taper makes me wonder if the latter portion of this taper (the rest of the same pill) will be far weaker. I hope that's not the case since I'm trying to stabilize as you'd mentioned. I really don't know to be honest. But my previous experiments in trying to break the dose into two and reduce my dose further has definitely been difficult. Though its weird I received so much relief last night / the first day of the taper. I don't really understand that. I felt borderline high from the liquid which is worrysome.

I'm thinking about skipping today - we'll see. I'm fairly used to skipping about 48 hours per dose - which might be why I've struggled to get down below .50. The problem is I'm beginning to lose my patience with skipping days (I've been doing it for a very long time) and truthfully after re-running my numbers and looking at the math, I don't see any benefit in skipping days until you're really close to coming off suboxone.

As for actual dose size or when the taper will end - I think it's a combination of things really. I'll probably try to get off over the course of the next few months at as low as I can go. I've got enough suboxone to last me another year potentially but I'd rather not as I'm allergic to the suboxone and it's most of the reason I'm trying to get off besides wanting to just not be on this rollercoaster anymore (skipping days regularly = bad idea - unless you're trying to shorten how much bupe is in your system).

That said, I've been off suboxone before, for almost a year. Last time I jumped at my doc's suggestion at 2MG. That time I had lost my job so I could deal with everything while not working. I don't have that luxury this time - however I do work from home so at least that would make it slightly easier.

Though for anyone considering skipping days often as I have, you should know - I do get RLS every day I don't dose, even if mild on day 1. Day 2 I generally wake up moderately normal and feel like garb around the end of the day.

See this is why I wasn't sure if I wanted to share - this is like a fraction of the whole story. I'd write a whole novel on here :P

And qhorse - thanks for your advice. I do appreciate the help & kind words. It's nice to know there's a place where other suboxone users and former users can band together and share knowledge / information.

Also I have a lot of experience with L-Tyrosine + B6, Kratom for withdrawal, magnesium and many other aids including xanax and valium. If anyone needs info on those I definitely have a plethora of my own data from my own experiences.

evolved


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:40 pm 
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Okay evolved,

It's totally understandable that you wouldn't want to share everything right away, or even ever in some instances. I get it. :wink: I think you've given us enough to go on to be of some help to you.

As for the skipping days, it can be a polarizing point around here at times. Some people claim that it worked great for them at the end of their taper, and some say it doesn't do anything but prolong the agony. My thoughts - it's all about the individual. You have to do what is comfortable for you. I once had a therapist tell me that she didn't care what any one individual needed to do to get sober. If standing on their head in the middle of traffic made them feel better she was all for it! The fact is that a huge component to getting off of any drug is mental, and if you think skipping days is the way to go then do it. On the other hand, if you see that it's not helping then you shouldn't worry about chucking the idea and going another route.

I'm sure others will come along shortly and share their ideas. And I appreciate you offering your assistance to others here. If you see a thread where you could be of help, just chime on in.

Q

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Ahh yeah. I got that vibe. To be honest I've been lurking here for a long time - prior to jumping off last time. So at least a few years.

But yes - it's true that the suboxone taper and jump off experiences are very individual. Highly so. Some people find it easy, others think it's one of the worst things to happen. In the end we can only share our experiences and information in the hopes that we've helped someone.

That said - I stumbled across a food thing that might help someone. Apparently blueberries + pineapple really helps me ward off day 1 crappiness. I'm not sure why. I did some research into both, and neither seemed to have much info about them, so I don't know which fruit is really the cause. Though, give it a shot. That said, ones diet plays a huge part in how much it's going to hurt. Often lighter foods, low sugar, fewer carbs all seem to help quite a bit. If you're sensitive to any foods normally, avoid those during detox.

I also forgot a few other aids that I should mention: Lope (immodium) and DXM. Both were interesting. I wasn't taking enough DXM to get high, but more of a slightly larger than normal dose but nowhere near anything close to getting high. That's not my focus. For the Lope - I'd actually used this to help get off last time. People have said high dose - but I stuck to around 6 2MG pills, or 12MG. At best this helped me not want to tear my skin off, but it really didn't do enough tbh. YMMV. As for the DXM, this seemed to help the first time, but since then not much of anything. I think you might actually need to reach the 1st plateau - which is not for me. I'm trying to cut down on drug use, and definitely don't really think DXM is the way to get off opiates plus all of the weird interactions it has.

qhorse - I'll take your advice and chime in where I see I can help. Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:16 pm 
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Day 2 - Liquid taper. I'm at slightly below .5 right now - .4347 according to my math. I don't feel terrible, definitely not like skipping days. I might just stay here. Though I also don't feel remotely close to what I did yesterday which was fantastic.

To add to this, In looking at my solution today, I noticed reminants of pill had sunk to the bottom of the syringe - and don't appear to have fully been absorbed by the water. This is +27 hours later. I've kept it in room temp, and have consistently shook it up before dosing still. Not sure if water is the best for this. Doesn't seem to really distribute the way I'd hoped it would, meaning it's possible that I'm on less than .43 , and its also possible i was on more than I'd planned yesterday.

I'll continue to keep this thread updated with my progress on this taper, but assuming these .07MG jumps are this easy to deal with, I don't think I'll have any problem decreasing more rapidly than I'd previously thought.

One final tip - this one's for anyone still on subs. I'm a salivater. I know that sounds weird but whenever I end up taking strips / pills or what have you I end up salivating so much waiting for it to dissolve that literally i could have a whole mouth full of my own spit if i were to wait long enough. I think this is a problem with absorption, and often for me personally may mean that I'm absorbing less and swallowing more. One thing I've found that helps this: take a little before administering your full dose. Enough that your body has suboxone in it already. Doesn't matter the dose, but enough to be moderately effective. Wait until that dose has kicked in fully, and then finish your dose. This actually makes my saliva issue far far less. Dunno if I've seen threads about this but I figured it might help someone.


Last edited by evolvedrevolver on Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:11 pm 
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It's been 25 hours since my last dose. I'm feeling pretty tired, but the usual for this time of the day really even when skipping days. No real leg pain, and the onset of a headache which is also pretty common. That said, I'm about to dose in the next few minutes here, looking at starting with .3478MG, and seeing how I feel.

From where I was last night, seemed the dose yesterday was fine for a few hours, until after I'd eaten dinner, and at that point I felt worse. Nothing major, a little irritability, minor leg pain. Nothing really awful. That said, most of that went away in the AM. Didn't wake up feeling terrible.

Curious if tonight things will be worse, or if each step will feel similar. Assuming it becomes too bad I'll probably go back to the .4347MG dose from yesterday, but I'm hopeful that it wont be too bad.

On the subject of the liquid itself, even today now 2 full days since first preparing the liquid, there's still parts of the pill floating around after i'd left it most of the night. Seeing as I'm getting to the latter portion of the syringe now, I'm wondering what effect that will have on the solution. My personal opinion: it seems there's at least parts of these generic pills that are not soluble. I'm no chemist/scientist but that's my only logical explanation here. Next time I'll try crushing the pill entirely.

As for the Liquid Taper itself I do have some thoughts - If you're the kind of person who ritualizes your dosing, this method is probably not for you. In comparison with just taking a chunk of a pill, or otherwise it's definitely way more ritualistic in preparing your dose, measuring it, making sure it's liquefied properly, shaking it up, and finally dosing. I've never been one of these people, but I figure I should mention this as a warning to those considering this method. With my other issues with this method in this thread, I'm not really sure about it but I'm going to stick with it.

quick edit: It's been about a hour since the dose. I have mild runny nose, and the tiredness is gone. My legs are a bit bouncy / energetic but no RLS. That headache that was coming on left before it really began. I feel "normal" mostly. I'm thinking later tonight should be as easy as last night if this continues. Curious at what point I'll feel that I'll need to stabilize again before going down in dosage, however as of now I'm feeling pretty okay with how things are going. The weekend could allow me to reduce the dosage more than I have been as well depending on how crazy I'm trying to get.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:16 pm 
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It's my 4th day on this taper. Currently I've stuck with the .3478MG dose again today. I've noticed my dosing getting later and later in the day as the week progressed. I think really because I've been of hte mindset that it's okay to skip days for so long I'm not exactly watching the clock to see when my next dose is. By the time I'm feeling a little crappy it's usually 27+ hours past my previous dose time. That said, Not sure what I'm going to do if this continues. Perhaps if it gets too late to dose one day and I feel somewhat normal I may just go to bed and skip that day.

As for progress - I slept pretty long today, felt normal when waking up. No real symptoms of anything. Curious if the extra sleep helped in any way. I'm going to probably stay at this dose for one more day, possibly two at most, then its reduction time again.

After dosing today I did get a wave of tiredness, something that I'm used to spotting on day 1 of no opiates - usually leading to the need to take a nap, or if you power through it it's usually the beginning of my early early WD symptoms. It went away after about a hour. Took a walk tonight to try to get my head together since I didn't feel 100% and that helped a bit.

That said, this is still far far eaiser for me than skipping days. At my current dose, I'm looking at a ceiling of or near 1MG bupe in my system (stacking due to half life) if my math is correct. I don't really know for certain. Though this 1MG is a bit high based on what I'm used to, which probably has at least something to do with how this has been easier to deal with.

That's about it. I don't have too much to add here but I would say the mental funk of skipping days for a long time not being here right now is pretty nice. I've been more active, and felt happier as a result.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Had a hard time getting out the bed and felt some mild anxiety today. Nose began running - seems maybe those earlier taper steps may be catching up finally. I feel mostly fine, my legs were a little irritated but not sore this morning. Last night though they were hurting a bit so I went for another walk before bed.

I've decided to stick with the same dose today - the .34MG (roughly) so I'm going to stay here again. At the moment I feel fine but I get waves of tiredness here and there. Still though, in comparison with skipping days this is a cakewalk.

I bought some restless legs homeopathic medication for once I jump. I haven't heard much positive about this brand and how successful it is, but I find that not being able to sleep greatly amplifies how crappy I feel during detox. Assuming I can at least fall asleep I should be okay once the time comes.

On the subject of suboxone and solubility, I'm almost done with my first pill (liquid) and there's still the same issues I noticed in previous posts. Maybe its the water out here. I have no idea, but my best advice for those following the liquid taper - be sure to shake up your solution for a few minutes before dosing, and dose quickly or the particles in the liquid will settle at the bottom (where you're dosing from). Not sure if this would change the strength of your dose. Also - assuming the suboxone did distribute evenly and not fall to the bottom, I'm not exactly sure how spraying water with evenly distributed suboxone into your mouth would work. I struggle to understand this really. I'd like more info if anyone has it. What I'm thinking is, assuming it does distribute evenly, then why would you get your full dose from the water if the suboxone is evenly distributed? wouldn't the suboxone need to travel into your system? If its suspended in water how could it do that?

Haven't dosed yet, but found some time to post. I'll report back later if anything interesting happens.

evolved.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:20 pm 
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Hey there! I didn't update last night mostly because I felt some unpleasant lingering effects come around. Mostly I felt some pretty mild leg agitation / pain, and some mental fog. I figured that a walk before bed would help and ended up outside, but the moment I laid down I couldn't get comfortable. I can't say it was RLS or if it was it was very very mild. Within about a hour I was asleep. I slept pretty well but woke up overtired due to going to bed late and then staying up later. I use sleep tracking software on my phone which shows me graphs of my movement throughout the night (I'm a data freak) and this showed that I was up for at least a hour, maybe longer It's tough to really say.

Today there were no real negative feelings until a few minutes ago when the leg achyness came back. It feels most similar to when you work out your legs and they feel somewhat annoying. It's not completely unbearable but its agitating enough that you're aware of it.

I'm going to be dosing later today my usual .34 dose. Hoping to stabilize a bit more today. I think last night's issues were compounded by me not really holding the liquid in my mouth long enough.

The nice thing though is that I definitely felt the urge to test out this restless leg med stuff that I'd bought but I chose not to. I'm happy I did. Ibuprofen did seem to help at least for a few hours last night. Otherwise I've been clear of any aids while reducing thus far.

The tiredness waves are still around though it might just be not really having as much sleep as usual.

I'm trying to debate on whether or not I'm going to tell some of my clients (mostly one agency) that I'll be detoxing soon. I won't be telling them from what, but I will give them a timeline / schedule. I think this might be necessary to make it so I'm not stressed out like crazy while detoxing.

On the subject of stress / anxiety - I did notice I was pretty anxious about work last night on top of everything else. It went away once I thought about something else but I was stuck on the subject for a while. The anxiety came back earlier today. More or less - I work for myself and right now work is very slow. I had a pretty solid plan for january where it was going to be a great month but nearly everything fell through. Whatever the case, I just need to get back to the drawing board on that. I'm not trying to think about that again right now.

Also - I'd been thinking about biology - and how our bodies have natural levels of dopamine. Most people I've read and been in contact with generally report feeling worse as the day goes on. This is generally why I tend to dose in the afternoon and evenings. Usually mornings are the easiest part of my day, which is funny because I'm definitely a night person.

Thats about it for this update. Nice to see some people are reading / checking up on this. Hopefully this information is useful to some of you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:40 pm 
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Hi ER,

I'm sorry that you aren't getting more responses. I'm positive others are reading, but my guess is their lack of experience with the liquid taper combined with how well you seem to understand this whole process is keeping others from responding to you. Either way, you are definitely providing all of us with some valuable information that I'm sure will be helpful to others at some point.

I was curious about your sleep software you mentioned. What is that? Do you keep your phone in your pocket or something so it can sense the movement? I've never heard of such a thing, but I'm kind of interested.

You also mentioned explaining your intent to detox to some of your clients. Do you feel that will be necessary? I don't know what your business consists of, and what your relationship is with your clients but if it were me I would probably want to keep that info to myself. Maybe you could tell them you have a planned surgery or something to explain why you will need to lighten your work load during that time? Just a suggestion, as I said only you know how they might react and if it is necessary to divulge that information to them.

It sounds like you are doing really well with your taper. You are obviously very dedicated to getting it done, and I'm impressed with how quickly you are moving along. Just keep in mind that if you get to a point where you are uncomfortable it's okay to camp at a dose for a week or so to stabilize.

Q

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:25 pm 
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Hello evolve :)

I don't have any clue what its like on a liquid taper and I am not ready to taper low yet. But I did want u to know that I read all ur posts and find everything very interesting that ur doing. How u can figure out those low doses and all the math stuff is something my brain shuts down on lol but it is cool to see how u do it. I also like all the advice u give with some of the things u have tried and worked for u. Please keep that up cause I would rather have advice from someone who has been there. Don't get me wrong, I listen to my doctor but I also truly listen to the ppl who have physically and mentally been there.

I haven't posted on ur thread because I'm not were u are at yet but really enjoy reading all ur posts. I don't really have any advice because ur teaching me by telling us what ur going through. I always wondered about the liquid taper and wondered if and how it worked. But when I do someday start going low and tapering, it will be great to know some facts.

I think u and everyone else who is facing this challenge are very brave and I wish u all the success in the world!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:19 pm 
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Hi Q and jennjenn,

Thanks for your encouragement. It means a lot. I think for me personally the anxiety / stress and mental aspects tend to be the worst. I really think there's a very strong FotU aspect of opiate withdrawal (fear of the unknown). We know in our future there's going to be something that sucks, and there's generally a date or a time period we know when it's going to happen yet we don't exactly how bad it's going to be, how long, or what it will be like. For those who have detoxed more than once, there's at least some personal history to go off of, but even then I suspect it's going to be different depending on circumstance and where you are in life. Anyways I'm getting a little off subject but thanks again - I'd planned on sticking with the diary because even if for some reason it wasn't helpful (sounds like it is though) at least it helps me stay the course and keep moving forward.

Q - In regards to your question the app is: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... leep&hl=en. I don't know if there's one for the iPhone but I'd be surprised if there wasn't. The idea really with this app is that it wakes you up when you're more awake during your sleep cycle so you don't wake up as tired. It works pretty well but I think the more you mess with the settings to customize it it's either going to work better or worse. This particular app has an extension where you pay roughly $2 and get access to these graphs that I mentioned. You can also tag your daily rest with whatever you want. So for example if you had RLS, you could tag "RLS" and take a look at how it affected your sleep. Or if you had a higher dose for some reason you could tag that. It might be interesting to look at. Only thing is - you need to have your phone on your bed when you sleep. I haven't had any issues with the phone being in the way, or sleeping on top of it. I think you just get used to it.

As for the client thing - I really don't know how they'd react, but I've no taken any days off for 3 years, so I cant imagine they'd really be annoied with me. Then again it would be bad if say the needed me for something during detox and I didn't tell them and they weren't planning for me to be somewhat "here and there" during the process. It just seems like the right thing to do. But I really don't think telling them the full disclosure is the way. There's definitely stigma for anything opiate related, and I don't want to be lumped into that. For all intents and purposes I'm technically a "successful" individual and don't want to tarnish that really.

I'll post again in a bit with my update. Last night I think I leveled out and things were okay.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:22 pm 
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Quick update for today. I'm sticking with the .34 today. Going to need to make new solution as well.

As of last night I felt normal again - seems the leg paid / discomfort was gone, and I got to bed normally. This might have been due to the fact that I was definitely overtired most of the day (slept 5 hours) but I'm going to chalk it up to finally stabilizing.

Woke up today rediculously overtired, took like 45 mins to shake the grogginess off. Felt normal until I ate. I don't want to come off as a hypocrite - and most of my food I ate today was technically junky which I do think had a lot to do with it. I'm awful at controlling my eating urges though.

I've also been dosing around 7PM daily now - haven't been pushing it back any further. Its tempting though to think about dosing close to bed. I'm wondering if I should try the split method again though I don't know if I'm going to get much of anything from the .17 in terms of relief. Usually I haven't waited long enough to know during these past few days since I've been using the "saliva please stop" method that I tend to use.

Some other thoughts - Now that I've gotten to where I am now and with the syringe I'm using (repurposed e-cig 2.5ML syringe) I think I'll need to buy a 10ML syringe and get it shipped here pronto. Real reason being, if I were to drop from .34 to .26~ it's going to be more painful as this step is technically a 25% reduction (it's .04 ML - so .01 x 4 = .34MG and since .04ML = .34MG and I'm reducing by .1 it's 25%. If this math sounds crazy to you, just know I checked it :) just know, I'm rounding a bit here to not make it more complicated than it has to be). As you taper lower with liquid, unless you either add more liquid (I can't due to my syringe) you'll be tapering larger and larger doses until your taper is 50% and then you're at 0. So I'm trying to get this syringe so I can reduce a bit slower. Hope that makes sense. If you have questions on this let me know.

Today I found out that my buddy is also in the process of detox - he jumped from 0.5. We're going to compare notes though I don't think it's going to really mean much since his story and his reaction to skipping days has been entirely different than mine. I won't get into the details here because in the end its his story and I have no idea if its something he even wants to share. Though it's nice to have someone else going through this on a personal level somewhat close to home.

Just took some magnesium to hopefully counterbalance this pizza I had for lunch. It should since generally calcium + magnesium tend to work like that. P.S. for minor aches and pains once you're off subs and back to a normal life, I recommend magnesium wholeheartedly. It works surprisingly well for me personally.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:27 pm 
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So yesterday was pretty annoying / painful post my pizza lunch. I figured it might have become easier once dinner time rolled around but the day stayed at an even keel of around a level 3 out of 10 on the uncomfortable scale. I've decided no more pizza while I'm detoxing which will be insanely hard to do but I'm going to need to do it for the purpose of trying to do this in a way that wont be so uncomfortable.

I managed to sleep fine though, no RLS, no issues. Woke up today feeling pretty normal save for some lingering leg agitation / pain. It's super minor though. As of right now my legs are hurting a bit, I feel like I need to stretch every few minutes. I ate something light for lunch and am planning on holding out until later.

I'm sticking with the same dose again due to yesterday / today's funk. I'm also going to try to plan out my eating habits for the next few weeks to make this a bit easier.

Last but not least, I'm starting on real exercise besides my usual walks to help ward off crappy feelings.

Not much else new to really add here for now. I'll probably reduce the dose again once this new syringe comes, which hopefully will be before the weekend.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:50 pm 
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Hi ER,

I was thinking about your situation with the dropper you are using for dosing. I know the type of dropper you are talking about from the e-liquid. Are you in an area that has farm supply stores? Like Tractor Supply or a Farmers co-op? If so, you can buy different sizes of syringes in there that have measurement lines pre-stamped on them. I bet that would be much easier than what you are using and faster than waiting on one through the mail. You can pretty much get whatever size you want for under a buck in the livestock section. We keep them around my house for dosing our horses with different meds.

I'm glad you are feeling somewhat normal again. :)

Q

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:41 pm 
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Hi Q,

Yesterday I ordered one 10ML syringe offline (for oral medicine). I'm hoping its a bit more dropper friendly cause my current one is a blunt tip needle and though some can spill from the needle at times, it's difficult to actually dose the right amount (I go very very slowly).

That said in terms of the setup I'm planning - I'm going to use the 2MG with 5ML water resulting in 0.4MG/1ML - roughly half of where it's at right now (0.8 ). I'm trying to keep the water levels down since as you know I'm not entirely confident that it's going to distribute evenly, and even at 5 it's going to make a pretty watery solution. I'll probably try one day at as close as I can get to .34 if not that exactly but this will be hard based on my math. To make things more difficult, i'm fairly sure the 10ML syringe I got only goes by .2ML steps (meaning there's 5 lines between each ML). That essentially means that if I'm going by lines exactly, I'll be stuck at 0.08 per step, instead of 0.04 as I'd wanted. I might actually have to go fully up to 10ML to get that solution / step ratio correct. I think the goal here for me personally at least for the first day or so will be to make sure that when I add that much more water I actually feel something and don't feel like I'm hurting. I suspect I will. If I report back that I feel like garbage after the 10ML solution I think it would put to rest my personal suspicion that the Suboxone doesn't properly distribute in the water and that mostly the liquid taper at least as far as "home preparation" is mostly a wash. That however doesn't mean that I will stop using it as I'm determined to get off. In the end if I have 1 day of feeling like crap because the water levels / solution isn't properly distributed it won't be the end of the world since I've been skipping days for almost two years.

As for my update - I continued to feel somewhat crappy most of the day after posting, and even after dosing. One the evening hit I decided to take a walk and take a pretty long hot shower. After both I felt normal again. I'm left wondering if what i felt wasn't allergy from the food I ate, instead of something brought on like early WD. Not sure. They're somewhat similar in the early stages. I ended up taking some of the restless legs homeopathic meds last night and the maybe 1-2 I felt on the uncomfortability scale went down to 0 and I passed out pretty normally last night. I felt like I slept well too, didn't wake up tired and I feel normal today save for some weird shooting pains up my wrist.

I'm concerned for my friend - he's definitely looking for an easier way out - but he's on day 4 right now after jumping and is pretty much looking for anything to help at this point. He does seem to think it's not even bad though for some reason which I don't really fully understand. There in lies the problem with people and how we describe situations. Say I were to elaborate my jumping / experiences the english language is so limited in how it describes one's actions in being, and the human experience that it's very very difficult to accurately portray how someone might feel themselves. I think we all know to expect some joint pain, but what is "joint pain" to someone who hasn't experienced it before. I don't think they have any idea. Anyways thats just a rant for another time.

Overall I'm feeling pretty good today so I'm thankful for that. About to make some healthier lunch here in a few minutes.

evolved


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:27 pm 
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I continued to feel normal last night and fell asleep normally. Woke up today in a bit of mental fog. Things in my professional life are very unpredictable right now, and for all accounts "not great". It's been throwing me off today mentally and it's hard to focus on work. Otherwise, no real symptoms of anything until maybe 45 mins ago when the tiredness began to creep up. I'd dosed half of the .347 so roughly .1735~. I actually ended up falling asleep with the suboxone in my mouth and woke up coughing due to having the liquid in my mouth. Checked the clock and saw it was 20 mins since I'd dosed so I decided to just swallow and be done with it. Quick disclaimer, I didn't expect to fall asleep and you could definitely choke on your own saliva if you do what I did, so don't do that.

I'm still waiting for that syringe to come - it should be today. I've been thinking in terms of dosing probably the best move is to find another value - say its 0.5MG/ML instead of my current roughly 0.8MG/ML. This would mean each 10'th of a ML would equal 0.05MG or 0.08MG. Having two doses set up like this gives you finer control of your dose. Here's an explanation - say you're going from .34MG like me, down and using the one syringe which is 0.8ML/MG - my next step down would be .26MG roughly. If I had the 0.5ML/MG solution as well, I could end up at 0.30MG from that solution alone (because 0.05 x 6 = 0.30). Using a combination of both, I could end up at .20MG (from the 0.5MG or 0.05MG x 4) and 0.08MG (from the 0.8MG) solution. What this means is, I get a dose in between the .30MG, and .26MG steps at .28MG (because .20MG + 0.8MG = .28MG). So each time I go down now, I'll have the ability to take smaller steps due to the fact that I'll have two solutions prepared. Took me some time to realize this was going to be the case but I was happy to find that this sounded correct on paper.

If you're struggling to follow the math - think of it like this - using one solution only (one pill, one syringe) once you get to lower doses, you'll end up taking larger taper steps. Using another solution (one pill, one syringe) you can create a new solution but add more water to reduce the steps, however if you stuck with this solution by itself, you'd end up with larger steps near the bottom also. Having two however, because their math is slightly different, allows you to actually take smaller steps provided you know how to map out your taper steps. To figure this out on your own, you'd simply need to figure out what combinations of numbers work to get you to your desired taper dose. So for example in my solution above, I wanted something between .30MG/ML and .26MG/ML. I couldve achieved this a few ways 0.08 x 3 = .24 + 0.05 = .29MG. I'm actually pretty sure I could taper either 0.01 or 0.02 MG at a time from where I'm at right now before I need to make a new solution. Will I? Probably not. I'm looking at cutting my taper step in half or so though.

It's the weekend so most likely if this arrives tomorrow I'll be sorting this all out and seeing how it goes.

In terms of this half dose I took not long ago I actually feel pretty normal right now, but still foggy. Not sure why. Going to try to bang out the rest of this work now.

Cya!

evolved


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:11 pm 
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I picked up the syringe but have not prepped it yet as I'm trying to figure out how to do this still. I'm still concerned since I'm using the 2MG generic pills which I'm now positive don't fully become properly distributed in liquid. If you're going to do this, you might have better luck with the strips, or the regular pills but I have not tested these yet. That said, yesterday I took the .34 and felt somewhat high. Not sure why. To my point I think the Suboxone is not soluble evenly in the water no matter how long you prepare the solution (+24 hours) or how often you shake. I don't think this is a very accurate way to taper as a result. That said, I'm going to continue to "pretend" like it is, and continue with this taper, but my general feel is, your first doses will always be higher in MG than you expect, and your latter ones will be less - if not significantly less. If someone ends up reading this and they have experience in chemistry, I'd suggest doing some tests on the generics to see if the important parts of the pill (Suboxone) is truly soluble. Maybe its possible what I'm seeing is just pill filler, but the fact is when you start a new pill in your solution the doses have consistently been higher, and as I've gotten to the end it's been lower.

I'd spent some time thinking about how I'm going to taper and wanted to stick to 10% consistently in reduction until around .15MG but I also don't want to drag this out more than it needs to be. Tomorrow I might just try the .256~ MG dose (3 of the 0.847~ MG's) and will see how I feel. I'm starting to think that maybe I'm repeating the same things in these updates. Bleh. I'm not the best writer.

That's about it though. Taper again tomorrow and then maybe stabilize by weds. Hopefully its easy.

evolve.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:12 am 
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Hey evolve :)

Still reading all ur posts. I didn't want ya thinking u were talking to urself since u had no posts lately. I think a lot of us are reading and just cheering u on. Honestly I think ur brilliant lol. I've always wondered how this liquid taper works so it's very interesting. U seem to be doing so well at knowing ur goal and pushing forward no matter how bad u feel.

I have nothing to add or any advice. I have been on sub for three yrs and not ready to do any major taper yet. Anyway, just wanted u to know that ur doing awesome... a big thumbs up :)

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