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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:23 pm 
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I was to start my taper on 1.1.13 using the Liquid Method. I have tapered down the last 2 years to 1 mg a day using a cut up 2mg Subutex pill (I cut with a razor blade 4 ways). I dose twice a day - .5 in morning and .5 in afternoon.

My first taper day was to be .4/.4 using the Liquid. I have not been sucessful cutting my pill lower than 4 quarters otherwise I just keep going cutting my pill. So I needed a solution.

I have read and re-read all the success stories using syringes with the water method. I tried this once before and felt nothing and was convinced I was just putting water and wasted my pill.
but after all the success stories thought I must have done something wrong so decided to try again. I have been preparing for many weeks so this wasnt just thought of a day ago. I ordered my 1mg syrnge over Amazon, prepared my container, etc. the night before, read and rereads up on the process.

Still my first night and morning, I had nothing but issues starting with the pill "dust" getting all over the sides of my container I used to mix my solution. I couldnt get it back into the water since I had such a low dose of water to begin with. Can't add water or it would ruin my dose. Tried blowing it down - didnt help. Would blow into air completely (fine, fine dust ) or absorb into the skin of my finger. Tried swishing the glass. Not enough water to get it all down.

Had to tilt the container to side to get a puddle. Had to balance the container with my hip to keep the puddle as I needed both hands to use the syrnge to pull up the water. Syrnge had confusing marker lines on it so I then freaked because I wasnt sure which one to use. It had 3. I went with the first one. Still hard to read as the syrnge kept forming bubbles and couldnt see the tiny marker line for .4 marker either. It had the marker lines to show you what to line up with the .4 then it had the tiny maker at the .4 (goal is to line these two markers up). I was confused as there was 2 other lines on the syrnge that even now I dont know why they are there other than totally confuse the process. Which it successfully did.

Whatever I draw, it was water and little to no drug.

I actually believe that it could be the pill I use as I am convinced when it breaks down, the drug breaks down. IOW, I use a 2mg Subutex pill. It is round and hard and SMALL. I have only successfully been able to cut it with a razor blade to 4 quarters. I have been on 1mg a day for about 6months now (maybe closer to a year). I take .5 in morning and .5 around lunch time. Every attempt at cutting smaller to taper lower has ended up in dust so fine it never even makes it to my mouth. The reason I think my issues may be the result of my pill not having enough drug in it are one time I had to use an 8mg pill, I cut it 8 ways to get to my .5 dose (I cut my 2mg 4 ways to get to the .5 doses). I was out of my 2mg pills so used an old 8mg pill. The result was drastic. I felt so buzzed I minuz well have taken the entire 8mg if I didnt know any better. How could there be this much difference when technically the dose was the same (.5) - felt like 8.0mg? My feeling is my pill I use is not evenly distributed and not made right - case in point that there are days I feel sweaty and withdrawy even on my normal dose and others I feel buzzed almost - same doseage, different experiences. The pill is not consistent. Another reason I was hopeful on this liquid. But I have not been able to get past the DILUTION of the drug. Many of you say it doesnt dilute..but can't convince me that when i had no relief using the water method, where did the drug go?

My first liquid dose was .4/.4 as I was going to taper to .8, .6, .4 etc. on 1.1.13

The entire process was a disaster.

I used the entire 2mg pill crushed into a container and added 2ml of water. The solution was so small it would not even cover the bottom of the container without me having to tilt the glass to the side to form a puddle large enough to draw up in the syringe. This proved extremely difficult when I went to take my first dose at 3:30 am trying to tilt the container to form a puddle, then use 2 hands to draw the solution up to .4. The next issue is I couldnt tell which line to go by to measure the syrnge? I use a 1mg syrnge but it has 3 "marker" lines (circles) and I had no idea which one to go by? I chose the first line but who knows if that was right. For a process that is supposed to be worry free, that was HUGE for me.

Then I kept getting bubbles. I squirted back (again very difficult balancing the cup with my hip, trying not to tip it over but had to keep it slanted to get to the solution). My syrnge kept getting a bubble so maybe I was not doing it right, but again, this isnt rocket science. I spewed it back into the solution and re-drew till I felt it was reasonably .4 but the whammy was when I squirted it under my toungue..waited, waited, NOTHING.

I felt no change. No calming, no movement nothing. Not to mention a little of the water shot back around my toungue despite my repeated efforts to not swallow..still nothing.

I had a minor stomache ache from the night before so used this as a baseline to see if I received the drug or just water. I know for sure my normal .5 chip would have relieved the ache somewhat and helped calm me to sleep. This "water
did nothing. I kept sweating, kept feeling achey, nervous and tired. I was in a mild withdrawal so .4 should have relieve that at some point. Shoot, I have read people talking how .2mg relieves them????

Felt I did it wrong so went back and tried again..now drawing another .4. The hope of starting my taper was complelety crushed when I went back but it was that or face the morning "cold turkey". I had 5 teenagers sleeping over and it was New Years Day and my last day off for awhile. I wanted to bring in the new year at .8..but ended up taking more than my normal dose.

Bottom line, when the first draw didnt affect me after 30min, went back and tried it again. This time looking at the syringe more closely. More bubbles, still confused which line marker to go by. I drew up more than .4 to be sure then squirted it back out till the first marker hit at about what I thought was .4. Still felt nothing but now I have on my heart I just took .8!!! Waited another 30min and maybe felt alittle different but stomach ache was still there, still sweaty and couldnt sleep.

Maybe at this point my emotions were stressing me so I couldnt relax. Who knows. But it didnt work for me at all.

Not to mention a brief bit of water shot back to back of throat despite how much control I used and how much little solution I had (again I only had .4 of the water). So now I am technically at .8 - still sweating, still no difference so broke down and cut a new pill and just took my normal dose and called it a wash.

Now I am on 1.2.13 with no more closer to my taper then last year.

I have very little hope now of what I now do.

Anyway, all you out there so positive of this liquid taper, could use some help here?????


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Hmmm....

Ask for a good 1ml liquid syringe from the pharmacy. It should be skinny have markings every .1ml, .2ml and then 5 dashes in between every .1ml (even though it’s hard to really measure much less than about .05ml because that’s about a drop of liquid). Not sure what kind of dropper your using, but it should be pretty clear to read the markings. Maybe you misread or if there were bubbles you need to draw more liquid into the syringe and then squirt it out until you get down to the amount you need without bubbles.....

http://www.bluffcitywholesale.com/diagn ... 20Syringes

Not that it should matter, but I never crushed anything first…just drop the pill into a pill container with the water and it should dissolve in about 10min-15min. I think it may be possible some of the sediment was on the side of your big 16oz cup. Smaller pill container should help? Try taking the whole .5mg dose that you were taking before tapering, so you’re not mentally freaking yourself out(also know its not uncommon to notice slight w/d from even a .1mg decrease)….try to get as much saliva out of your mouth before you drop in the liquid. You’re not going to be able to keep it all under your tongue, but maybe try using just .2ml or .3ml at a time....wait 30min and take another .2ml...if I read your mixture right 2mg=2ml so .1ml=.1mg? Keep your head tilted forward if you need to...

Anyone else got any ideas? Good luck I say try it again.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:17 pm 
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Will your doc prescribe the 2 mg films? They can easily be cut into 0.125 mg pieces or maybe even smaller. You can avoid the liquid taper all together.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Thank you South Jax and Lil. I do have a 1mg syringe. I probably did it right just me in my obsessive/compulsive anxiety that morning probably was over-analyzing the syringe. the syrnge has 3 marker lines at bottom (these lines are the ones you line up to the .04 on the syringe itself). What confused me is why 3? I believe the first line (way at tip) is the one to use (that is the one I went by) because when the syrnge is in its closed position, the other two lines are behind the first one and it would virtually be impossible to measure a smaller dose - say .02 or.03 with those lines since those lines are right at the tip when closed. The first line was the only one that moved enough to get to those lower digits (if I was that low of course) so went by that one. I will ask my pharmacist next time Im there to be sure.

Lil, Subutex unfortunately does not come in Tabs and I do not want to go to Suboxone and add another drug with the mix at this low dose. I am an ex Tramadol user too and the Nalexone in the Suboxone would give me extreme headaches since Tramadol had a head med mix to it..it would be too much for my receptors. Maybe now it would be ok but mentally I dont want another drug when my goal is to taper off the one I have. If that Nalexone did give me headaches then I would feel I was going backwards. My doctor did advise this to me though in the beginning..tabs would be SO MUCH EASIER to cut.

Question: Does anyone on here know if I did go to Suboxone at this low dose I am currently at - 1.0mg of Subutex..if I switched to Suboxone so I could take advantage of the tabs to get below 1mg and keep my doses more accurate if that would hurt me in my taper?

Would adding back on Nalexone make my withdrawal worse?

The good news to my extremely weak 2mg subutex pills is maybe I am alot further than I realize. If they barely get me through the day at 1mg how much more when I stop I may be further along in my taper and not have to go through as much.

I like the idea of just dropping the pill in the water..that would eliminate the dust everywhere. I thought people were going to tell me to make "more" solution too. I am now really leary to do that because if this didnt work..I dont want to waste my pills.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Just so we're clear here...suboxone comes in either a TABLET form or a FILM form. Both come in 8mg or 2mg doses in the states.....You can use liquid taper method with either tablets or film, but you can cut the 2mg strips of FILM into much smaller pieces since the tablets will crush into powder just like your subutex.

I honestly think the liquid taper will work fine with your subutex tablets but I always used the suboxone tablets. I doubt it will set you back if you change to Suboxone...actually in my experience suboxone seemed to give me less of a buzz than subutex so you may be doing yourself a favor...If you've given the liquid method a week or so and it doesn't work then maybe ask your doctor for 2mg suboxone FILM. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:51 pm 
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Thank you. I know Suboxone comes in pill and film and I realize 8mg and2mg. That is why I have the 2mg of Subutex from day one. I never wanted the 8mg since I knew I would be tapering and would prefer to take the smaller dose. Unfortnately in giving up Suboxone, I lost the ability to have the film. Subutex does NOT come in film.

If Suboxone will not cause issues then I will consider moving to the film and be done with this issue. I truly believe it is my pill that is part of the problem. It is not one that has a marker on it, oval where it cuts ok. I just called the Pharmacist again today and he confirmed this is the ONLY pill they can provide and it also is not evenly distributed. He recommended I not try to crush it as I would end up with only filler (hense why that never worked). I believe this is why the liquid didnt work. I am only getting filler in the water.

Sorry about my questions all over. I truly believe that is a side effect to this drug. I never talked scattered like this and believe this drug makes me feel hyper, agitated and irritable.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:20 am 
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Hello karen.....

sorry your having such a rough go of this,,,, but I HIGHLY reccomend getting either the TWO MG FILMS,
like others have said you could just cut them up

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7449
^^^here's the thread on how a guy did it, with a hole puncher, and 2mg films, with hardly any noticeable withdrawl symptoms,
then you don't have to mess with liquid, AT ALL

Or get the 8mg film, and try again......

Im sure it IS the subutex pills, making it more difficult.....


the OTHER reason for me posting, in here, is I deleted the short thread "someone please help with liquid taper"
becuz it was pretty much just a "copy" of this, minus one post of amy's.

Sorry, but there's lots of other people that need help, and have questions , too. You do still have the other
"how do you store..." thread going also.

I do wish you the VERY best of luck with your taper, and You are definitley encouraged to ask questions,
just having multiple threads on the same topic, with almost the same replies in them, makes things confusing
MORE confusing I mean......

thanks for understanding :wink:

and, again, GOOD LUCK :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:34 am 
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Hi Amber, your post is a Godsend to me. This morning at my normal 3:00/3:30am wakeup I could not stop worrying about what to do next.

I think you helped me have PEACE with the Film process as I thought about that too. When I first started seeing the doctor I go too now, she attempted to prescribe me the films when I told her my concerns with the dam pills. She wrote it out and everything, I returned it to her. I couldnt get it out of my head I was "adding another drug" - Naloxone which (to me) would make me feel worse. I heard people complain of headaches and when you google that drug by itself has its own withdrawals.

At any rate, your encouraging post to me with your success story with the Films TRULY helped me. THANK YOU THANK YOU.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:41 am 
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Hi Amber, I forgot to mention in my last post I totally understand about the multiple threads. The only reason that happened (my apologies) is my franctic attempt 12.31.12 to get an answer before my first dose. I waited to last minute and then I had all these questions...and panicked. When I stumbled through my questions myself I had more..and since noone was answering the one thread..I figured I needed to bump my other issue to a new one. Desperate attempt to get answers.

Anyway, sorry about that.


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 Post subject: Cigarette Filter?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:47 am 
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Hi Amber (or anyone), I did have one question I was going to ask before I saw your post on films. I will ask my doctor for the films and go that route for sure but I did have one remaining question to the liquid method (please, anyone knowledgable I would really appreciate if you would comment)?

Under one of the sticky's a gal used cigarette filters to absorb the liquid solution to avoid the issue of water going down her throat. It worked great for her. Everyone that read her post seemed to agree. I am not a cigarette smoker so not real clear on how she stored these cut up filters.

She said she cut up to absorb .25ml of solution, let sit on top of a plastic baggie for a couple hours. Then used them accordingly under her tongue until the orange sub drained out. Then she would spit out the remaining filter.

She said this worked great. I am interested in that before I give up my subutex however she didnt say how to store these. Do I still need to put these dried up sub filters in fridge similar to the liquid or now can I keep them in a pill box like pills? She never explained this. This (to me) is important as if I keep by my bed in a pill box and they go bad I have just lost another pill. Pills are too expensive for me so if someone could clear this up I would appreciate it. I assume after she dried them, she just kept them in a pill box? She said you could also use cotton but preferred the cig filters.

Thanks.


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