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 Post subject: Lilly's Jump
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:24 pm 
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So I went from 4mg to 0.5 mg over a two day period, then did 0.5mg for four days ending yesterday. I've been afraid to say it, but I'm doing astonishingly well. So here it is my first day off, and I'm heading out for a big commitment that I can't get out of. I'm fading and starting to feel fearful about how I'm going to be. Then basically out of fucking no where I find 2 8mg strips that I had absolutely no idea were there. So I took a tiny 0.5mg piece.

So here's the question. I have been all geared up to WD over the next 4 days or so. My calendar is almost totally clear, and my husband is going to be here for the kids. So do I still do it, or should I taper down to 0.25mg or less? I really wanted to have some Sub to get through today, but I'm almost sorry I found 16 mg.
Advice and input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:47 pm 
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WOW that’s a tough situation to be in right now. I can see why you’re not sure what to do as I wouldn’t either.

My only advice would be count 10 days out. You don’t want anything serious on your plate for 10 days after your last dose. I found days 5 through 10 to be the worst (about) and then it’s much better from there.

If you think you can make it through today I wouldn’t dose. I’m sure you could use those other 16mgs to taper, but I don’t think it’s going to make a huge difference. Either way you’ll need to go through the pain whether it’s in the next 5 days or a week from now. I think it all comes down to your schedule. When can you give yourself 10 days? I think that’s the big question.

Now that’s just my opinion and I’m sure there are others. I didn’t do this the ‘traditional’ way by any means so maybe you want to take that into consideration….but I will say I’m doing great.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Lilly you prolly still have some of the 4mg in your system. I tapered down to .125 for 3 days and went to liquid Subutex down to .06mg (tapering every 3 days.) I was a big baby, but have only had a little insomnia and anxiety, no other w/d sx. Since you have this time off you might try. Ask your doctor for a few Clonodine which helps with sweats, chills, anxiety and cramps....it is an old b/p med commonly used for opiate w/d, just be careful of dizziness if it gives you low blood pressure. You certainly could ask for a few valium and a few trazedone for sleep, if you aren't allergic.

Remember I am not a doctor, but you have always been so kind to me, I wanted to respond

Hang in there you are a wonderful person

Robin


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Hi Lilly, I think you still had the sub in your system and that's why you hadn't felt too bad yet. I would think that a drop from 4mg to .5mg is gonna feel pretty crappy once you get the stacked up sub out of your system. If you then taper to .25 I think you will just be drawing your withdrawl out. If it were me I would probably get thru today and be done, especially since you have some help for the next few days. One thing I know for sure sub tapers/withdrawl is unpredictable, so who knows maybe you'll be some rare individual that can drop from 4mg to .5 with minimal discomfort, if that is the case then I would probably continue to taper. If this is your 5th day at .5 you should be feeling crappy by the next day or two if your going to and if you don't then I say go for it and continue to taper. Whatever you choose i hope you get out of this as painless as possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:35 pm 
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Here is what I would do if I had four days to be as sick as I needed to be and then has to function to some higher standard:

I'd try to suffer through the next 4 days and take advantage of your husband being there, etc. I don't think it's such a terrible thing that you found those two strips, because you just cannot w/d in a handful of days.....

Anyway, so if you take the next four days off and let yourself crash, you are going to get a lot of it out of your system. You will probably feel like crap. Then, I'd cut those films into insanely small pieces and use those to 'taper' the rest of the way off. If you have to function and feel too crappy after these next four days, take one of those tiny little pieces to take the edge off. By tiny, I mean really tiny....as small as you can cut it. Then, wait as long as you can before doing that again. Stretch those suckers out and only take the least amount you absolutely need to not go nuts or lose your job. You can try to just jump now and get 'er done, but I'd save those two films for your back-up plan. Think of it as: "I am getting off Sub as fast as I can and I will only take the bare minimum when/if I have to!"

Keep updating, Lilly.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:30 pm 
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I totally second what Ladder said. That seems like the best plan. Good luck and keep us posted.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:00 pm 
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I'm gonna third what Ladder said. That method, for the particular situation you're in, makes the most sense.

Update us when you can Lilly.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:11 am 
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I'm holding at 0.5 mg. I really appreciate everyone's input. Being ever the researcher and data collector, I've done a lot of calculations to estimate how much Sub I have in my system. I was on 4mg for only 2 weeks, prior to that I was on 6, 8 and for the better part of two years 12 mg (and 16 for a time). So it doesn't take a mathematician to determine that I have a hell of a lot built up in my system. It's not like I'm coming off of just a 4 mg dose. And I think, like someone said, that's probably why I haven't felt too bad yet. I read in the literature that it takes 10 days for a single dose of Suboxone (and it's metabolites) to be eliminated from the body. So I can only guess that's why people who go off abruptly feel crummy for weeks sometimes. They think they're off, but really the bupe is continuing to leave the body every day.

So maybe I'm rationalizing, but I'm feeling pretty functional at 0.5 mg. But before I dose, I have no energy, feel anxious and shaky and have the feeling that I'm hungry but I can't eat. (BTW I'm also sweating bucketfuls). These symptoms are, for me, pretty minor compared to full out WD's that terrify me. So I could probably tough it out, but to be honest, I just don't want to suffer if I don't have to, and I feel like if I stay at 0.5 for a week or so the levels that I built up in my body should be coming way down. Especially since Dr. J said the half life decreases dramatically at low doses. So I don't think the tiny dose I'm taking now is adding to the build up.

Does this sound logical, or am I just chickening out?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:36 am 
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Lillyval wrote:
I'm holding at 0.5 mg. I really appreciate everyone's input. Being ever the researcher and data collector, I've done a lot of calculations to estimate how much Sub I have in my system. I was on 4mg for only 2 weeks, prior to that I was on 6, 8 and for the better part of two years 12 mg (and 16 for a time). So it doesn't take a mathematician to determine that I have a hell of a lot built up in my system. It's not like I'm coming off of just a 4 mg dose. And I think, like someone said, that's probably why I haven't felt too bad yet. I read in the literature that it takes 10 days for a single dose of Suboxone (and it's metabolites) to be eliminated from the body. So I can only guess that's why people who go off abruptly feel crummy for weeks sometimes. They think they're off, but really the bupe is continuing to leave the body every day.

So maybe I'm rationalizing, but I'm feeling pretty functional at 0.5 mg. But before I dose, I have no energy, feel anxious and shaky and have the feeling that I'm hungry but I can't eat. (BTW I'm also sweating bucketfuls). These symptoms are, for me, pretty minor compared to full out WD's that terrify me. So I could probably tough it out, but to be honest, I just don't want to suffer if I don't have to, and I feel like if I stay at 0.5 for a week or so the levels that I built up in my body should be coming way down. Especially since Dr. J said the half life decreases dramatically at low doses. So I don't think the tiny dose I'm taking now is adding to the build up.

Does this sound logical, or am I just chickening out?


Um, no you are not chickening out, lol!! Sheesh, Lilly, even doing it the way you are doing is a very rapid drop and all I can say to you is "Go, Lilly!" Do it however works for you, sweetie, and we'll be hear to listen and cheer you on!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:36 am 
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I just got a call that my doc called in my script and it's ready. WTF? The reason I was able to get so low so fast was I thought I was cut off! W/in a half hour of getting the call I thought about taking more. Typical addict! Thank God my husband is helping me. I already gave him the 8mg, and he's going to help me w/ the new script - to get the 2 mg films, cut down some 0.5 mg and 0.25 mg doses and flush the rest! (I wouldn't even bother getting it if it weren't for the fact that cutting the 8mg down to tiny doses is difficult, and I don't want to do the liquid if I don't have to).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Lilly, I wouldn't fault you one bit for picking up that prescription. Cold Turkeying it off of Suboxone can be very rough indeed. While I understand your concerns about not being able to stick to a taper, you seemed to do pretty dang good these last several days when you were under the gun!!

I LOVE your idea of cutting some 2mg films up then throwing the rest away. You're forcing yourself under the gun again and I think by doing that, you'll be able to taper a little while longer.

Every nanogram of Suboxone you can get out of your system now while you taper will make your eventual jump that much easier.

I'm excited for you, you sound like you're doing very well.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Hi Lilly, If your husband is helping you maybe you shouldn't flush them just yet. When your stacked up sub is finally out of your system it is possible that the .5 dose your taking is not going to help to keep you out of withdrawl. Why don't you have him hold onto them for like a week and if your still doing ok and getting by then have him flush the rest. I know you want to keep the pressure on yourself and I completely get that. I am just worried that when all the build up leaves you could be in pretty bad shape at .5 and now that you have more you could properly taper and go up a tiny bit if need be but if you flush them you have no choice. I understand if you think putting yourself in a corner is the only way you will get off I just wanted to throw this out there. I really hope however you choose to continue on works out for you and keep us posted!


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 Post subject: hi lillyval
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Hi Lilly,
I just posted for the first time. I have visited this site before, but this is the first time I have actually sought out support.

I am so happy for you. Keep up the faith if you want to get off. Personally I agree with you-flushing is the best course. Like you I am a super addict. If I know that there is something around the pull too much. Husband or not. If you really want to get off- you are going to have to face the fact that at some point you are going to feel withdrawal. I wish I could lie and tell you differently- I have been through the whole mill, and I actually got off after being on for 4 years. Since I did not learn any good coping skills, as life is- something came up and I had a brutal relapse. I just wrote an intro explaining all this.
What ever you do- have a plan- anything- some sort of way to know how to cope with life in general. I do not tell you this from a position of accomplishment- but rather the opposite- I have no coping skills at the moment. I have in the past, but the past is the past.
I will try and hang around this forum a bit depending on how I feel about the people here. I have always been a bit suspicious of the whole suboxone thing- yet at the same time have to admit that does help with getting an opiate addicts life stable. But anyone who says there are not serious side effects- as there are with any opiate- is misleading.

I may be not good at a lot of things- maybe I am a total loser- but I am good at listening. I have been where you are right now many times. I really really hope that things work out for you. I am also so happy for you that you have a husband that can support you- that is huge. really huge.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Hey lilly how are you feeling?? Are you jumping now?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Hi Lily, I've been following your thread but i held back from posting before....but when you found those extra strips, I thought good, now she can keep tapering instead of jumping so soon. But I didn't say anything. I too have great trouble monitoring myself, so I do understand your urge to just flush any sub that you consider extra and be done. But I vote with the idea of delaying that a bit to see how you feel. That is, if you think having your husband hold the sub for you will work. It seems to me that the people who taper down to the lowest amounts, down to about 1/4 of 0.5 mgs are the ones who report the easiest time at the end. But yeah, it's hard to get the dose down that low without going to the liquid method, and I do understand why some people feel that jumping at a relatively high dose is the only way they will ever do it. And in your case, you are NOT at a high dose at all, you are already at a dose that many people decide to jump from. But still, your taper has been fairly rapid, right? Bottom line, my thought here is that this unexpected scrip gives you the option to taper longer and lower if you need to and to me keeping that option seems like a good idea. However, if you thought you were only going to bring your dose back UP because of having the script, then I can really see why you would want to get rid of it. Ultimately you will decide how to handle this and whatever you do I certainly wish you well. If continuing to taper seems like prolonging agony, then jumping sooner may be best...but if I were you I think I'd prefer to taper further. Have you tried skipping days yet?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:38 am 
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autononymous wrote:
Hi Lily, I've been following your thread but i held back from posting before....but when you found those extra strips, I thought good, now she can keep tapering instead of jumping so soon. But I didn't say anything. I too have great trouble monitoring myself, so I do understand your urge to just flush any sub that you consider extra and be done. But I vote with the idea of delaying that a bit to see how you feel. That is, if you think having your husband hold the sub for you will work. It seems to me that the people who taper down to the lowest amounts, down to about 1/4 of 0.5 mgs are the ones who report the easiest time at the end. But yeah, it's hard to get the dose down that low without going to the liquid method, and I do understand why some people feel that jumping at a relatively high dose is the only way they will ever do it. And in your case, you are NOT at a high dose at all, you are already at a dose that many people decide to jump from. But still, your taper has been fairly rapid, right? Bottom line, my thought here is that this unexpected scrip gives you the option to taper longer and lower if you need to and to me keeping that option seems like a good idea. However, if you thought you were only going to bring your dose back UP because of having the script, then I can really see why you would want to get rid of it. Ultimately you will decide how to handle this and whatever you do I certainly wish you well. If continuing to taper seems like prolonging agony, then jumping sooner may be best...but if I were you I think I'd prefer to taper further. Have you tried skipping days yet?


I agree that these strips can give you a golden opportunity to taper lower and longer and not suffer. You really can do it. Have your hubby hold the script. Try to remember what it felt like to suddenly be 'out' and facing w/d. You can take control and make sure that doesn't happen again!!

I'm eager to hear how you are. You know that whatever you decide or however you are handling it, you can always rely on this place to boost you up or pull you back up. I hope you update soon.....I'd love to hear that you are okay, Lilly!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Hi everybody, and thank you for your continued support. I guess I've kind of been avoiding the forum because I don't want to think about Suboxone, and I don't want to talk about how I'm feeling.
But to give an update, I had a full out emotional meltdown in Wednesday (exactly 8 days after going abruptly off 4 mg, right on schedule). I won't go into the details, but at one point I just couldn't stop crying and I had to show up to distribute food for Foodshare. I ended up running into my minister, who could see that I was a basket case, and he ended up talking me down. So that day I think I took an extra 0.5 mg after the meltdown, and the next day I started taking 0.75 mg divided into 2 doses. I have to say I feel really, really good now. I'm still a little emotionally volatile and I've had minor stomach issues, but over all I feel great, and it's like I can't believe I ever took 12-16mg because after actually going down to 0 (on Sunday) 0.75 mg feels like a lot!

So, I'm going to stay at this level for now, and I plan on going down to at least 0.25 mg before I go off, and I don't care now how long it takes. I really don't feel like taking extra to try to get high, because I know it will just make me feel like crap.

Also, I've been trying to force myself to exercise and get outside more, and doing the things that produce natural endorphins.
I even happened to be somewhere where they were having a blood drive and I've decided to give blood because it's always given me a really good endorphin rush in the past (great reason, right?), but it didn't work. Then I heard from another source that you should switch to Subutex at the end of your taper, because the tiny bit of naloxone you ingest blocks the natural endorphins. Does anyone know if there is any truth to that?

Oh, and this is big, I finally broke down and made an appointment for counseling. I know that's what were supposed to be doing while were ON Suboxone, but quite frankly, I just wasn't motivated to do it and nobody was forcing me to. It seems like I'm starting to get my motivation back, which is a good thing.
So overall things are going well, and I appreciate all of your kind words.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Thanks for the update Lilly.

I'm sorry you had such a rough time on Wednesday.

I'm glad you're forcing yourself to get out and be active, I know it's hard as heck to do that, but it does help.

Glad to hear you're gonna get some counseling too!

Stay strong Bud.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:56 am 
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Just wanted to bump this to ask this question again:

I heard from another source that you should switch to Subutex at the end of your taper, because the tiny bit of naloxone you ingest blocks the natural endorphins. Does anyone know if there is any truth to that?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:12 am 
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I don't know if there is any scientific truth to it but I was watching youtube videos a few nights ago and I cam across a couple people that said they switched to subutex at the end of their taper and that it helped them greatly. Of course it's just you tube but thought I would throe that out there.

I am so happy you are feeling good! You are a strong person and I know you will prevail!


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