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 Post subject: The half life of Sub
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Thanks for all the co-cartwheelers on here! That's a pretty cool idea. I'll do cartwheels for you guys and we can all reciprocate. Hopefully, no one will break their necks, or anything else for that matter.

Can someone on here explain the half life of Sub, as far as how it affects our ability to get off the Sub? I know the half life is long and I do kinda stress over it. I think I remember it being 37.5 hours. I once tried to mathematically figure out how this would work, as in how we could figure out how much would be in our system at any given time. There has to be an equation for this, but my Calculus is rusty!! I don't really understand how we can being tapering down when we are constantly increasing the amount in our systems. I did ask my doctor about this and the man absolutely has no idea. He just said "people do it" and that was his answer. LOL! Does it just keep building up indefinitely? I really don't get this at all, but what livin said makes me think that it must be tough to taper to a dose low enough that it will be reasonably comfortable to stop the Sub altogether. (BTW, living, I think your method is quite brilliant and I also think it's pretty darn smart of you to be continuing on in this way to the smallest dose you can cut it to.)

This isn't meant to be a negative thing. It's just something I've never completely understood and nobody has ever been able to explain it to me either. It's a pretty complicated concept.

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 Post subject: Re: The half life of Sub
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:52 pm 
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laddertipper wrote:
Thanks for all the co-cartwheelers on here! That's a pretty cool idea. I'll do cartwheels for you guys and we can all reciprocate. Hopefully, no one will break their necks, or anything else for that matter.

Can someone on here explain the half life of Sub, as far as how it affects our ability to get off the Sub? I know the half life is long and I do kinda stress over it. I think I remember it being 37.5 hours. I once tried to mathematically figure out how this would work, as in how we could figure out how much would be in our system at any given time. There has to be an equation for this, but my Calculus is rusty!! I don't really understand how we can being tapering down when we are constantly increasing the amount in our systems. I did ask my doctor about this and the man absolutely has no idea. He just said "people do it" and that was his answer. LOL! Does it just keep building up indefinitely? I really don't get this at all, but what livin said makes me think that it must be tough to taper to a dose low enough that it will be reasonably comfortable to stop the Sub altogether. (BTW, living, I think your method is quite brilliant and I also think it's pretty darn smart of you to be continuing on in this way to the smallest dose you can cut it to.)

This isn't meant to be a negative thing. It's just something I've never completely understood and nobody has ever been able to explain it to me either. It's a pretty complicated concept.

laddertipper


I really hope someone can answer this, b/c in all honesty I didn't know about this... My dr. never mentioned that to me, and now that I have read what livin said about that, and I clearly must have missed this when I was reading all the posts earlier this week, I'm kind of scared. I just can't comprehend that then, like if we are at say 1mg, we are really not, because we are building up the drug every time we take it? So does 37 plus hours mean after that time it's gone if we are off of it completely? Am I totally confused right now? YEP! Sure am! I'm anxious to see the answer to this, thanks girl for putting it out there.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:09 pm 
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Well, here's how it kinda works, at least as I understand it, which isn't very well. Say you take 8 mg on Day 1. Well, 37.5 hours later, you still have half of that dose left (4 mg); 37.5 hours after that, you have 2 mg of it left. And on and on it goes. As we dose everyday, we are always adding to it and it stacks up. It's kind of like there's a pile of dirt and you have one person adding to i with a big bucket and another person on the other side of the pile removing from it with a cup. I really cannot understand how a person can truly taper when this stacking effect is always happening. I wish we could just prick our fingers and get a reading on how much is in our system.

There has to be someone who can explain this. I wish the doctor would get on here and answer it. A couple Sub detox places I called told me to just jump off Sub because the stacking effect meant that I wasn't really getting anywhere. One lady told me that the reason it was taking so long for me to adjust to 1 mg was because it was taking longer for my body to stack up enough Sub to cover my receptors, and I wasn't really 'tapering' at all. Now, I tried to take that with a grain of salt because she was obviously in the business of getting people to go in there for help stopping Sub. Nevertheless, it's been on my mind and I would love to have this explained, just so I can disregard it if it's nothing to worry about.

Maybe we can start a new thread or keep bumping this one if no one comes on and answers it.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:20 pm 
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Well, I tried to work this out on paper again, but I made it a little easier. I assumed that Sub has a half life of 36 hours instead, so it's not totally accurate. So, then I assumed a person was taking 4 mg a day at the 24th hour of each day. So, on the first day, obviously, the person would have 4 mg at the end of the day. On the second day, the person would have another 4 mg plus 2.52 from the previous day's dose. So, that is 6.52. On the third day, the person would have 4 (third day's dose) + 2.52 (second day's dose) + 1.59 (first day's dose) = 8.11. It does stack up pretty fast. If someone has an 'in' with the SubDoc, will you ask him to comment on this? I'm using the basic formula for half life. Oh, and the '1/2' after the 't' should be subscript, but I don't know how to make subscript on superscript and I really need to make dinner. :)

N(t) = N[sub]0[/sub] (1/2) [sup]t/t1/2[/sup]

N(t) is the amount after a certain time (t)
N[sub]0[/sub] is the original amount
t is the amount of time you are using to figure out how much is left
t[sub]1/2[/sub] is the half life of the substance (I used 36 which isn't totally accurate)

I hope someone who is better at math than I am will some along and comment.....I'd love to know how it's wrong or why it doesn't matter.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:55 pm 
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I am really sorry guys for buming you out with the half life thing. Dont let it bother you tho because its just a theory. None knows for sure what the half life is. Anyway, when you get to a low dose(like around .25mg) no half life, nomatter how long will have a real effect on your wean and in a week or so your body will be close to that new dose even with a 1.5 day half life.
But in the end none of this b.s. matters. Once I got to a low dose it got real, real easy. I feel great and it only cost me a few days of minor w/d. My only w/d in the last 3 years on subs was when I took different doses each day. I would take more when I felt minorly sick, like the sniffles of watery eyes, whichwould cost me sickness later that week. the key is to remain at one dose and only go lower, never higher. if you need to take more only do it when the w/d is so bad you cant sleep or think.
Get as low as you can, wait a week atleast before adjusting and try to only dose once a day. Once I got down to .25(atleast in my case) getting to .036 was painless. And when I say painless I mean painless. only some RLS and watery eyes. THATS IT. I feel sogood right now. I know i am esentially at nothing because i know this feeling and it only has happened for me in the past when i have come out of w/d. you know that burst of emotion and random happiness. That mean my daily dose of .036 is so low my body is reacting like i am on zero mg. It took about 13 days to completely adjust from 1/10th 2mg a day to .036 but it only cost me 2 days of noticable w/d and a week of minor stuff that Ihad to think about to notice.
The best advice I can give you to get that low quickly is spend 1 weekend taking either no suboxone or like .05 a day. Get in one or two sick days and then dose a small dose. Your body (or mind if some of this is metal) will be so happy you dosed that itwill be automatically adjusted to the new dose in a matter of days(took me 4 for full adjustment, from about 1/10th a day to 1/40th a day in one weekend). So if your in a hurry to lower it try that. otherwise take it slow and only go lower. it will ALL work out. you DO NOT need to go though a hell week to get off this. at most 1 or 2 uncomfortable (minorly like allergies) days when adjusting to microgram sized doses from mg sized doses. once you hit the micrograms and are settled on them you wil find that I am right about this and all your current worries will be erased. And i am a HUGE pansy when it comes to w/d s i I can handle it you can. I think we have developed a kind of phobia to w/d because we have had to deal with major and minor w/d for so long even subs and other opiates. we develope a response of automatically needing our meds when we feel minor discomfort. its not so much that this discomfort is SO BAD. its that we are phobic of it. if it was just a cold it would be no problem. just pretend when adjusting that its just a minor cold and it will only 2 to 3 days while the dose adjust. Good luck my peers.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:02 pm 
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p.s. when you get real low(like near 100micrograms) you will start to feel this amazing excitment and happiness that you have not felt in years while on opiates. just wanted to boost some hope here after my hlf life bummer. foget about it. and nice job with that math ladder, i was too lasy to even attempt it. just get low and forget about everyhing else. IT DOSE WORK OUT.

by the way when you get as low as i am let me know if music sounds much better then ever before. all of a sudden i cant stop listening to music. especially classic rock. if you want some inspiration may i reccomend downloading some eddie vedder songs from the "into the wild" soundtrack. great and inspirational music and movie. the songs "rise" and "hard sun" really inpsired me through all of this and I feel like i am reborn after all of this.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:14 pm 
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Hey livin,

I've been off sub for 10 months now. Something you said REALLY struck a chord with me.....music sounds SO GREAT again. I too listen to classic rock, but I also like 80's rock and 90's rock too. Pearl Jam (Eddie Vedder) are one of my top 5 bands of all time. Zeppelin is #1. Anyway, "hard sun" is awesome, I'll have to give "rise" a listen, I'm sure I've heard it, but I can't pull it to mind at the moment.

I've been listening to Fuel, "sunburn" a lot lately. "innocent" and "hemorrhage (in my hands)" are also great Fuel songs!!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:28 pm 
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hey Romeo,
I am real happy to hear that. It's been soo long since a good inspirational song gave me real chills. I mean its like all of a sudden I can sense things again and I am not emotionally numb. subs helped me survive through the lowest low of my life but now that i am ready to live again and feel again I am real hopeful about everything. I am also glad to see your still posting here even though you have been done fo 10 months. Eddie Vedder is awsome and I will check out those fuel songs. I really hope everyone here finds this happiness through complete sobriety. this high is better then any high i have EvER felt.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:28 am 
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I have said it many times about music, it moves me and gets me charged up like nothing else I know. It's way better than drugs because music is real!! I heard an old Billy Squire song....Lonely is the Night while we were out to eat tonight....it brought me back to my high school days, it brought back so many great memories.....I don't know....music just has a way with me.

I'm glad to meet another member who understands just how powerful music can be in their lives.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:37 am 
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Okay, l i v i n, thanks so much for saying that. You're right. I'm not going to sit and stress over it with my calculator in hand. I sat down after dinner and tried to figure out how to calculate it in one huge formula that would combine all the doses instead of having to do every half life individually. However, how can that work, because I couldn't figure out how far back I should even go....Plus, when you keep halving the dose, you get into ridiculously teeny amounts and I don't know when to just quit adding that number and consider it out of my system, KWIM? Also, I was thinking that the bioavailability varies so much with films and tabs and how well one absorbs them each day that it's really nearly impossible to accurately predict this. We all have different metabolisms, etc., etc. Too many friggin' factors!! How pointless, huh? LOL. Oh geez, I'm so nuts in how much I worry. I love the idea of taking a few days off meds completely. I just don't see how I can. My husband works at least 6 days a week and I have no family here and few friends so far, so I'm kinda alone and have to take care of my kids. Maybe I can squeeze in a day here and there where I cut my dose in half? At least that would be a shock to my body and you're so right about it making your body rapidly adjust. I took one week off Sub in 2007 and was able to drop from somewhere around 14 or so to 3 mg very, very fast. It was incredible. Do you think I should wait longer at 1 mg until all the aches and stuff are gone? I still do have symptoms, but they are either getting better, or I just don't care as much. Not sure which. You are such a blessing on here. You kinda calm the hysteria, KWIM? You kinda un-OCD things a little, even though for a second, when I read your first post about your taper I thought it was a bit OCD, lol! Now, I'm a fan.

laddertipper

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 Post subject: he ladder
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:27 am 
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Hahaha, I am a fan of your posts as well. I think you should just take it slow then. I mean I took a year to get from 2mg to where I am now at micrograms. Over the last 2 months I picked up the pase but that was just because of my OCD about getting off.
It also takes like 2 to three weeks to fully adjust sometimes to where all the w/d goes away. Ive been at this new dose now for exactly 15 days and I still have minor w/d like sometimes I get watery eyes and RLS but its random and not 24/7. Like yesterday I felt so amazing I cant even describe it, with no w/d whatsoever. And today I feel really good but am having slight RLS. Our brains just need time to heal. Whichever way you go about it just know you will get there and it is more than worth it.
I think the obsession about dosing is worse than the w/d so just enjoy everything and take it slow. I read your other post on another thread about you feeling that rush of life again. This is GREAT to hear because it means your getting so low your body is beginning to feel again and get out of that numbness. Just being at that point it a great accomplishment so everything else shouldn’t matter as much. If you feel this great already it only gets better so what’s to obsess over right? I know we spend so many posts debating the best method to go about this but everyone is different and we should just relax a bit and let our bodies tell us what to do. If we need an exta bit here or there to ease bad days that’s fine. Your time at zero will come and It seems like your real close. And when your down throw on a good inspirational tune because not everyday will be great. That’s life even off pain meds.
Just know everyday your healing your brain more and more.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:35 am 
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and I more than commend you for being able to do this with a family and job. I am 23 with no real responsibility other than school and taking care of my dog. I find it amazing that people can deal with this with a husband/wife and kids to take care of and a job to show up for. I really wish you the best and think you need a pat on the back for doing this with all these other responsibilities.


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 Post subject: l i v i n
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:53 pm 
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You give me too much credit, cause I'm not working...outside the home anyway. My kids seem to keep me pretty busy.

I'm having to relinquish control at this point and there's something to learn in that. I cannot seem to adjust to this dose. I don't know why. Maybe it will take a year. Who knows? I woke up with the worst chills today and cold hands and sneezing and I ache. It just won't let up. This did not happen after any of my other tapers, which is why it feels like I got blindsided. This is my 24th day on this dose for goodness sake!! Waiting for my Clonidine to get here....

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:52 pm 
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damn sry to hear that. i still wake up some nights not feeling too great and i just take an extra bit. usually half my daily dose. this has always made me better in 15 min. if you just take this extra amount when your really sick to the point of waking up at night its ok. youll eventually have less and less of these nights. just takes time.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:59 pm 
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Livin: if you are feeling better after only 15 minutes of taking some extra Bup, I can tell you that it is extremely likely (like 99.9%) that it is not the medication that is making you feel better. Bup takes a very long time to start working and even longer to reach its peak. This is due to a variety of reasons - at the top of the list being the method of injestion. It just takes a really long time for medication to get into the bloodstream using the sublingual route. For most people, it takes 45 minutes or more at the very least for the medication to start working and often takes 90 minutes to reach peak effect. Unless you are snorting it or something (which I don't at all think you are) there just is no way that the medication is doing anything for you after only 15 minutes. I'm not at all doubting that you "feel" better. It just is likely placebo effect and not the medication. This is also why Dr. Junig and many others strongly suggest NOT taking extra doses based on how you feel. I would put serious money on the fact that if we could somehow give you a fake Suboxone, you would still feel better after 15 minutes.

Just something to think about and consider. And more importantly, others reading this should really stear clear of taking extra doses to "feel better".


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:41 pm 
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most of it is probably mental so i do agree with you on that, but i do have physical symptoms like sweats, RLS, watery eyes that go away after a dose in about 15 minutes. I think its a mix of relief that I dosed and I will feel better and the begining of subs setting in. But i do agree most is mental. I only take extra once in a while (like maybe once a week) when i actually wake up sick. this has been a rare occurance as i get lower so its not causing any exta w/d that i know about. good point though.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:07 pm 
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It really is amazing how that can work. I remember back to when I was in active addiction and would start to go into withdrawal. It was not at all uncommon for me to feel like total crap and within minutes of getting some hydro or oxy or whatever in me, I'd calm down and already start to feel better. It was not at all the drugs - it was very clearly just the fact that my mind could relax because I knew I would soon feel better - or something like that. It very much happened that way, though.

It is just amazing what we'll do - even when we know it makes no real sense. I guess that's why they call it an illness huh?


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 Post subject: donh
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Thanks for letting me know that, donh. I've been under the impression that it's supposed to work quickly, but for me it doesn't. I can take my dose and feel like it's doing no good, but two hours later, it kicks in and the symptoms lift. If I take it at 9, I won't feel much better until 11. Glad I understand it better now.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Hey ladder and anyone else who's interested:

In the Liquid Taper Thread starting on page 3 there is a really detailed discussion of the half-life stacking effect and how it effects the dose you're taking and the tapering process. Schrodinger'sCat had worked out the equations and made a spreadsheet that would calculate what your blood level would plateau at based on your dose and dose-interval, but unfortunately the files he linked to are no longer available. Maybe I will PM him and see if he's still around at all.

Anyway, the conversation starts toward the bottom of page 3 and it gets pretty detailed. Here is a relevant quote that gives his first formula for figuring the half-life:

Quote:
I am almost done with the stacking half-lives spreadsheet. Really it's done but my stubborn ass is trying to figure out a single equation for it. It's hard but I'm working.

And, an answer to your question. 0.1 mg every 24 hours assuming a half-life of 37 hours:

After being on this dose for about 2 weeks you would have 0.28 mg in your bloodstream every time you dosed (as in, including that dose). An interesting note is that if you took 0.05 mg every twelve hours you would reach a "plateau" of 0.25 mg despite it being the same dose daily.

EDIT

I have been working on this ALL NIGHT (off and on). The equation is:

At = d - d*e^(-kt) + A(0)

d = dose
At = Amount in blood total
k = ln(2)/(half-life)
t = time afterwards (in hours)
A(0) = dose

Right now this only works when the period of dosage taking equals the half-life. Better stuff later hopefully. Bedtime.


A page or so later he (or someone who used the spreadsheet while it was still available) says that at .25mgs your dose plateaus at .67mg.

Anyway, it's too bad that the spreadsheet isn't there any more, but I hope this helps clear the situation up a bit. And the discussion in that thread is worth reading I think.

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2 ... c&start=50

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