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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Recently this forum experienced a bit of...intense emotions. I'm not going to discuss that specific subject and in fact I'm asking all of you to not discuss that subject at all either. What I would like to say as it relates to that experience is this:

We all come here for support. Many/most of us have issues or situations going on when we post, so we solicit advice/guidance/ideas from each other. We offer our suggestions, which of course will inevitably differ, from minimally to extremely.

What we need to be doing is simply recognizing those differences and agreeing to disagree. Period. No insults about bad advice. What's the point of that? It's unnecessary, unproductive, and in fact as we all saw, it only does damage. But we can change that. It doesn't have to happen again. We can disagree respectfully. But we MUST do so without ATTACKING the other person's ideas or them personally. Just because someone offers different advice that you don't agree with, it doesn't make that other person stupid or their idea stupid. It's just a different idea. For the most part, many of us can post our replies without even making reference to anyone else's post(s). Maybe when we start to reference another member in one of our posts we should stop and ask ourselves is it really necessary? Am I showing respect for their decisions? Am I simply disagreeing with their idea and is it necessary to even point that out, because just by giving your own opinion it's quite clear that your disagree. Can't I just let the OP decide which of the differing opinions s/he chooses?

What I'm saying is we can support and help each other without focusing on the fact that we disagree with each other about how to do it. This isn't a debate and we don't need to fight to prove our idea is the best.

Think about it, as people and addicts, we have more in common with each other than we do differences. Yet here we are fighting over those differences. It's childish and pointless and takes away from the recovery of each one of us, because it takes this safe place, this previously more neutral, healthy environment (suboxforum) and adds chaos and negativity to it. We don't need that here and don't want it here. I'm saying we can do better! We want what is best for ALL the members of this forum.

So maybe when we post our replies from now on, let's just stop to re-read it from another person's perspective and ask if we really need to discuss or even mention another member's reply?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:53 pm 
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I completely agree with you, Hat. That was well put. Two thumbs up. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Ditto, great post! I would give you three thumbs up but I only have two!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Yeah. Totally agreed on that one.

It's really easy for all of us to get lost in emotion, and direct our words at people other than the person who's asking for help. By doing it, we're not helping the person in need. We could even begin to harm them.

It all falls under the banner of "respecting the decision of others". There's no need to be offensive towards others. Sometimes we are so overcome with emotion that we let it out by swearing. This I understand, and do it myself. However, we need to draw a line at swearing directed towards our fellow members.

I think we also need to keep in mind that there's many lurkers reading our posts, interested in contributing, as well as newcomers. Seeing aggression like before being thrown around could easily scare people away, people who otherwise may have contributed, and helped save lives.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:07 pm 
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So it would appear that the moderators agree with the moderator. Isn't that nice. I actually was going to post on Romeo's relapse thread, but found it locked. Isn't that nice, too. Rather than "rush" a post on Friday, that I had spent nearly half an hour working on as it was, I thought I'd hold onto it and post it when I had time on Sunday. Sorry to say I have not had time to read anything until now - was gone and working all weekend. Anywho, once again it would appear that I wasted a bunch of time since I can't post it on a locked thread now, can I? Then I see more posts have been deleted. Then I see someone has been banned. Is that true? Did we ban more people? I guess I need to be honest and say I didn't see that someone was banned, I had it reported to me.

This, my friends, is where I left the forum last time. Then at the urging of several I came back being ASSURED things had changed and were DIFFERENT now. But just like they say about a soap opra on television (I don't actually watch those either, I've just heard this) you can leave for six months, go back to watching, and pick right up where you left off. It would appear this too qualifies. Perhaps I'm the idiot here. What do they say insanity is, doing the same thing and execpting different results? So I guess I leave right where I left six months or so ago and for the exact same reasons and many of the same players involved. I want recovery. I don't want or need drama.

So, while I actually do agree with Hat about agreeing to disagree, I don't how that translates to if we don't agree then we delete posts or ban people from speaking that with which we disagree with. That's sure one way not to disagree - silence whomever you disagree with. Hmmmmm. Doesn't make for a good forum though - although it does cut down on the conflict, I'll give you that. Although what happens when a different topic comes up that someone doesn't agree with? I guess that's where the phrase "Last one out, turn off the light," or in this case the computer, comes in. At this rate, all we'll have left is moderators agreeing with moderators - which is what promted me to post in the first place.

For what it's worth, I most certainly do agree - Let's learn from our past mistakes - I could not agree more, because clearly things have not changed around here.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:58 pm 
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donh wrote:
So it would appear that the moderators agree with the moderator. Isn't that nice. I actually was going to post on Romeo's relapse thread, but found it locked. Isn't that nice, too. Rather than "rush" a post on Friday, that I had spent nearly half an hour working on as it was, I thought I'd hold onto it and post it when I had time on Sunday. Sorry to say I have not had time to read anything until now - was gone and working all weekend. Anywho, once again it would appear that I wasted a bunch of time since I can't post it on a locked thread now, can I? Then I see more posts have been deleted. Then I see someone has been banned. Is that true? Did we ban more people? I guess I need to be honest and say I didn't see that someone was banned, I had it reported to me.

This, my friends, is where I left the forum last time. Then at the urging of several I came back being ASSURED things had changed and were DIFFERENT now. But just like they say about a soap opra on television (I don't actually watch those either, I've just heard this) you can leave for six months, go back to watching, and pick right up where you left off. It would appear this too qualifies. Perhaps I'm the idiot here. What do they say insanity is, doing the same thing and execpting different results? So I guess I leave right where I left six months or so ago and for the exact same reasons and many of the same players involved. I want recovery. I don't want or need drama.

So, while I actually do agree with Hat about agreeing to disagree, I don't how that translates to if we don't agree then we delete posts or ban people from speaking that with which we disagree with. That's sure one way not to disagree - silence whomever you disagree with. Hmmmmm. Doesn't make for a good forum though - although it does cut down on the conflict, I'll give you that. Although what happens when a different topic comes up that someone doesn't agree with? I guess that's where the phrase "Last one out, turn off the light," or in this case the computer, comes in. At this rate, all we'll have left is moderators agreeing with moderators - which is what promted me to post in the first place.

For what it's worth, I most certainly do agree - Let's learn from our past mistakes - I could not agree more, because clearly things have not changed around here.



+1 Gold IMO


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Don, if you don't like the soap opera. Then turn off the TV. Why sit there watching a soap opera you don't even like, just so you can point out all its flaws?

There seems to be this stupid idea of "us and them" floating around, that moderators aren't people, that we're "moderators", that we're the "enemy". I noticed that the moment I agreed to this position. Some people I hadn't even heard of, decided I was some kind of enemy. I hadn't done anything, or deleted any posts. It doesn't make sense, really.

I'm exactly the same person I was before, and I say exactly the same things I would have before. My words don't represent Dr. J, or some professional opinion. And they don't have to. Just because I'm in this position, doesn't mean I can't speak my mind. The only difference is I have a couple of extra buttons, to move / split / combine / delete posts. If you think I have some kind of fetish for using them, some "power tripping" fantasy, then you're mistaken. I really don't like deleting posts, but I will do it without hesitation if words are said that are offensive, or inflammatory, or dangerous.

You're right to claim that we all have our own definitions of what's dangerous. I don't dispute that. If all the mods just stood back, and let "anything go", this place would go to the dogs sooner or later. I knew that even before I became one!

If you want to leave don, then just leave. Spare us the negativity.

If we really censored this place, as you claim, do you think these posts would still be around?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:02 am 
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Agreeing with Hat's post had nothing to do with either of us being mods. I don't understand how anybody could disagree unless I missed something. I interpreted her post to say just respect each other. Not that people can't disagree but to not get personal about it. Everyone is free to post their varying views, there is just no reason to tell others they are wrong or to get insulting. If I believe a and you believe b, we can post all about a or b, we just don't need to say a or b is wrong. If we disagreed respectfully there would be no need for moderation. If everyone followed the rules set forth by Dr. J no post would ever have to be edited or deleted.

I have yet to delete or edit a thread and am hesitant to so but it is a responsibility I accepted when I took this job. I get no enjoyment out of telling other members what they are doing wrong. If you think about it, it is ridiculous we even need mods in a forum full of adults. I am all for debate, free speech, etc. This is Dr Junig's site and he decided there are very few things he does not want said here and it is his right to do so. In my view they are very simple, the rules are posted along with the consequences. Differing points of view can easily be posted without breaking a single rule. I can also assure you that I am not power hungry. This isn't a responsibility I even wanted nor sought out. I appreciate this forum and it has helped me immensely. So when it was asked of me to help moderate I decided I would, not because I wanted to censor people or have control but simply because I wanted to give back to a place and people that have gave so much to me.

I was not here 6 months ago so I am not sure what has happened previously, but i have beem here for about 5 months and I was extremely shocked to see what Romeo's thread turned into. I had not experienced a thread that out of hand since being here and I wish whole heartedly it wouldn't have turned out the way it did.

These are just my opinions but if everyone follows the simple rules of the forum then there would never be any posts deleted, edited, threads locked or people banned. I also do not understand the anger towards us for simply doing what we are supposed to do. If the drama is what bothers you or angers you, then shouldn't that irritation or anger be towards the members breaking the rules and creating the drama than the people just cleaning up the mess?

P.S. I apologize for any spelling or grammatical errors, I am on my phone and it is a huge pain to correct them.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:50 am 
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Jesus Christ Don, what the hell are you all het up about? The forum drama had nothing to do with you, and you hate the drama...but you sure do jump right in and try to stir shit up.

I locked Romeo's thread because it was a clusterfuck of epic proportions and I was worried about Romeo, who by that time was no longer even involved in the conversation. He agreed that locking the thread was a good idea.

If you want to use the reply that you spent 30 minutes writing, you could PM it to him or you could reply to his new thread, which is the one where he is actually reading and responding and where your words might actually reach your intended audience.

As for the member who got banned, that was a long time coming and the person was warned repeatedly. Not that it has anything to do with you.

I'll also remind you that you were offered the moderator position and I really wish you would have taken it, since you seem to think that you could do a better job than the people who actually accepted the responsibility.

Regarding deleting posts, it happens very rarely and when it does happen it's for a good reason. Not because we "disagree" with what someone says, but because someone is being vile and insulting or blatantly disregarding the few rules of the forum. I suppose that you think that the forum should just be anything goes and the mods should just shut the fuck up, but that's not going to happen. If you have a problem with the job we are doing please take it up with Dr. Junig.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:32 am 
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I have seen people come on this forum and call people names, swear at them and do nothing but criticize people and start arguments. That is, unfortunately, why we have to have moderators, and I do believe that shutting these people off is best for everyone on the forum.
I have to go on record, however, and say that IMO Setmefree was no where near falling into that category. In fact since I have been a member here I have seen her use her considerable medical knowledge as well as insight on addiction, mental health and spirituality to help other addicts in need. Did she post a few inflammatory comments? Yes, but so haven't a lot of us when we were angry, just like your last post DOQ, sprinkled liberally with swears and angry words.
What bothers me the most is that SMF is literally days off of Suboxone right now. Does anyone remember me saying I ripped a phone off a wall and smashed it to pieces when I was days off Sub? Everyone jumped in and assured me that was a normal experience and would soon pass. But when SMF got irrationally angry and lashed out while going through this same process, she is suddenly a danger to the forum.
I also know for a fact that someone had been PMing her personal attacks, and that angle was never even considered when banning her, because her account was shut down before she could forward the offending posts to the mods.

So, yes, I agree that being a moderator is a thankless job and the mods have endured undue criticism. But at the same time I can't abide seeing someone who has reached out to help so many people on this forum be shut down days after jumping off of Sub when she needs our support the most.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:50 am 
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But Lilly, you're assuming you know the entire story, and that's the wrong assumption.

Also, tearjerker suggested not swearing and directing it AT someone. That's different than just swearing. This forum as always allowed swearing. We're adults here after all, do we really need someone telling us that we can't swear in general?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:31 am 
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I would like to correct a couple things Lilly so you have the facts as well as everyone else.

1st we made sure to give her time to respond, her account was not just turned off. The pm informing her was sent and received by her early evening Saturday. We waited for a response and one never came and she was deactivated Sunday morning. We went out of our way to be sure she had received the message and to be sure to allow her to respond.

2nd this has not been going on just in the last few days. Also if it was, she was warned and given every opportunity to stop. We understand members are in bad moods at times and may post something in a lapse of judgement. When warned it was up to her to stop, if she was so angry and couldn't control herself then she should have stepped away from the forum. If we allowed people to continually break rules every time they are in withdrawl or having a hard time there would be constant posts that break the rules. I don't recall having to warn you while going off sub, so are you saying you could control yourself but smf couldnt?

I can assure you this was not a witch hunt, we tried every way possible to get her to stop. Like I said above she was given every opportunity to forward us any pm's she felt offensive. She chose to continually ignore us and continue to post attacks on all mods and the forum as a whole. What about a newcomer struggling with the decision to get help and posting here? They read a past moderator telling them what a shitty place this is and how moderators can't be trusted, so they decide not to post. What about helping them? Lastly I would like to ask you what should have been done? She was warned more than once and after being warned would start her posts with "this is going to get me banned but", she was well aware she was ignoring us and that if she continued she would be banned. So what should we have done? Just said "you know all those warnings that you ignored smf, We decided to just ignore them too and allow you to continue to break the rules since you have contributed good here we have decided your above the law and are going to let you continue to break rules."

I respect you very much Lilly and would really like to hear what you think should have happened. I ask that you answer this question without involving your personal feelings for smf, if we moderated based on personal feelings then the rules would not be applied equally. I have also informed you that other warnings were going to be issued in that thread until Romeo asked us to let it go. Since the attacks were aimed at him we decided to honor his request. That does not mean it's been forgotten. I mean none of this disrespectfully Lilly, I think you are a very valuable member. We were painted in a corner and what was left to do?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:58 am 
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Obviously, being a moderator is a thankless job. No matter what decision you make or don't make or action you do or do not take, somebody will disagree with you and tell you you handled it wrong. No wonder people assume the mods are paid. I think we all should try to understand that the mods are asked to make tough calls, knowing they will tick some people off.

I certainly have no trouble with people disagreeing with one another and expressing that. A forum is an exchange of ideas, after all. You can strongly disagree with another person and let that be known, but there is a way to go about it that keeps it meaningful. Then there is the runaway train way, which is destructively confrontational. I know Breezy very much disagreed with me, but I did not feel attacked, and what she said actually mattered to me because she kept it classy.

I know SMF is going through a hard time getting off the Sub, and, boy, I sympathize with that. However, I don't believe most people know the whole history of this and they won't know it, because the mods won't post it up here. They don't do that. They would not even have thrown her name up there. They handle things quietly: remind people of the forum rules and let people choose whether to heed them. I certainly don't know the entire story, but I'm pretty certain there were a bunch of warnings, and I can recall a few times when a warning was due. This is certainly not about recent forum stuff only. This goes back a while and I think SMF was given a very fair chance. And if you want to consider PMing personal attacks, she did plenty of that herself, unfortunately, and that goes way back. There's been a few times when people were banned and it seemed to me as if they were almost trying to get banned. This was one of them. I guess the mods just have to draw the line somewhere, and we should try to respect that it's not an easy decision.

donh, you're an enigma. You aren't on here much and you don't reply to many threads, but when there is drama, you participate and give your opinion on not liking drama and how much it bugs you. You could always choose to just not participate in what you see as drama and focus instead on other threads, the majority of which are not dramatic. If everyone did that, there would be very little 'drama'. Also, I'm not sure what you think should be different. You don't like the drama, so how should the moderators handle escalating situations? You want the drama to stop, so should they delete or not delete posts? Should they ban or not ban people? Should they just let a thread keep escalating.....what? Wouldn't that only lead to further drama, which is what you don't want? It's cool to not agree with the way things happen, but you need to offer solutions. If you don't want drama but don't want banning, deleting, etc., then....how do you make that all work?

I think the point of this thread was important and we shouldn't forget it. We can all learn from things getting out of control. I mean, I did. I know I make mistakes and did make mistakes, and that is okay. We all do, but we don't need to tear each other up over them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:35 pm 
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First of all I want to say that SMF left on a 500 mile road trip Saturday and saw the message on her phone Sunday Morning. She told me that her account was locked before she had the opportunity to reply. So I would consider giving people 24 hours.

Second, I am sorry I even referred to DOQ's post. I was not implying that she was swearing AT anyone. Her post was directly above mine and it was a good example of how someone can post something totally out of character when they are upset. So I am sorry for that, DOQ.

I keep being told that this has been an ongoing problem, that there have been many inappropriate posts and it is a detriment to newcomers. I took the time to look back through many, many of SMFs posts. What struck me the most was that probably 90% of them are words of encouragement, expressions of sympathy, or advice to someone struggling. If you take the time to look through even the first two pages of them you will see how she responded judiciously to the person who ultimately attacked her. I'm just not seeing posts that would scare a newcomer away from the forum.

I've also been told that a lot of the reason for what happened was due to PMs that I am not privy to. What would I ask that you do? Read the PMs from both parties involved, and note who instigated the argument. It has been said that there were PMs to more than one person. If SMF has in fact been PMing people inappropriately all along, then I guess I am the fool here. Judging by the people who are upset by her being banned (but don't want to post about it), it seems that neither they nor I have received inappropriate PMs. So again, could they have been the result of a two sided conflict?

Ladder, I have alway liked you and I respect you. But I have to say that I am deeply offended that you would imply that I shouldn't have "thrown her name up there". I think you know why I would say that, so I'll I won't embellish. Just know that all of the regulars here on the forum already know about this (and it's not SMF telling them). For what it's worth she didn't even contact me. I heard she was banned from another member and I then reached out to her.

This brings me to my final point. I felt that a there were a lot of highly inappropriate, even offensive things posted last week. Yet not one other person was even warned. I know Breezy said that Romeo wanted to let it go. Well, consider this, a while back someone called me a "fucking little pussy" on this forum. If I had said I wanted to let it go, would that person not have been warned? I think the rules should be enforced by the moderators, and not only with the OK of someone who has an emotional connection to the thread.

So you ask me what I would do? I would not have banned her. But I will not continue to argue. I have already said more than I should have. I think you all know that when I post I try to be moderate, I try to de-escalate rather than escalate situations, and I believe in kindness. So I do not want to leave this forum on a bad note. I deeply appreciate all of the support I have received here. You guys (including SMF) have helped me more than I can say.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Lillyval said:

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If you take the time to look through even the first two pages of them you will see how she responded judiciously to the person who ultimately attacked her.


Who is this "person who ultimately attacked her"? I assume you mean the person who was ultimately attacked was setmefree? So then, who was this person who attacked her? I'm quite curious about this....very much so. If you think setmefree was attacked on this forum, wow, you certainly do not have any idea what really happened and what threads were moved way back when and what posts were deleted. In addition to PM's, you also are not aware of what happened when it involved only moderators at the time or should I say personal attacks directed at another moderator.

So again, I caution you against assuming what you heard was even the truth. And yet you continue to base everything you're saying and believing about this whole thing based solely on that one underlying false assumption.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:06 pm 
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When a pm is sent it is in your outbox until it is read. It was then in my inbox Saturday night so she read the pm Saturday night informing her of the banning and to contact us with any questions. She did not do so and was given well into the morning to do so. So I can't say she was dishonest about anything else but if she claims to have not gotten the pm until Sunday morning she is being dishonest about that.

She had warning after warning and knew this was coming. If she did not know then why did so many of her posts include, "I am going to be banned for this"? I guess I just don't get it, and again I am asking this respectfully. By your account we should have just continued to warn her? How many times is enough? If we don't follow thru with enforcing warnings and rules then what's the point? I don't know how many ways I can say I take no pleasure in having to warn and especially ban anyone but it is the responsibility I accepted and we will never make everyone happy. You received pm's from members that are unhappy with the decision and I've received pm's prior asking how long this would be allowed to continue and why she was getting preferential treatment. I've now been receiving pm's supporting the decision. My point for posting the pm's I received is not to make my case but to show that every member will see a situation differently. Which is why I come back to moderating based on the rules and not how I personally feel about someone. Multiple warnings were issued, she continued to ignore, therefore she got banned. It's as simple as that.

If there are posts that have offended you in the thread and would like them handled then please pm me and let me know. The pm's I felt were insulting and out of line were directed at Romeo which is why I took into account what he wanted. If there was something i missed towards you or another member then please let me know. I don't claim to be perfect, in fact far from it. I am learning as I go.

I do not like the fact that you are unhappy with the decision as I have said multiple times. I respect your views and think you offer a lot to the forum. You are getting one side of a long standing problem and since she was dishonest about when she received the pm do you think it's possible she left other stuff out or embellished other details? I am in no way saying she is a bad person but when you are angry and feel wronged it is easy to distort the facts in your favor.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Lillyval, as I offended you deeply, I guess I need to clarify what I said, because you truly misread it. I was not implying in any way that you did anything wrong in putting her name up there. And I get that you're implying that I have no right to imply something like that because I put Romeo's name up, etc. Fine. You can think that, but the way you read it wasn't how I meant it. I was saying that the moderators do not do that (put people's names up). They don't say who was banned or the circumstances behind it, because that stuff is kept pretty quiet out of respect. So, you don't hear their 'side' of it, and I really hesitate to use the word 'side'. The reason I said that was to point out that members might think some action is unfair, but that feeling can be largely based in only knowing one version of a situation, specifically the version from the banned person. That person has the choice to not even let other people know they were banned, if that is what they want. Nobody told me it was SMF, but I knew it must be when I heard somebody was banned. I knew it was her because she's been a moderator and knows what will and won't get you banned, and several of her posts have included stuff like "I know I may get banned for saying this but I don't care", etc. However, my point had absolutely nothing to do with you putting her name up there and that being wrong, because I truly don't even think that anyway. So, please don't be offended, because that was a misunderstanding and I'm sorry if I was unclear.

Hope you don't leave.

LT

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:59 pm
Posts: 1039
I said I would not continue to argue and I meant it, but I feel I owe it to SMF to say this because she is coming off looking like a liar. I went back and re-read the e-mail she sent me, and she said she read MY PM on Sunday morning and didn't have a chance to reply. It wasn't clear when she read the other PM, only that she was on the road reading on her phone. So that was my mistake and I apologize.
Hat, I think your last post troubles me most of all. SMF was personally attacked via PM by another member just prior to being banned, and she believes that her angry replies to that member were the final element to the decision to ban her. I know for a fact that this is true because I received an angry PM from the same member on the same day about the same subject. I did let another mod know this, and I guess I just assumed the information would be shared.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
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I am not arguing, I am simply posting the facts. I would not be addressing this but feel everyone reading this thread needs to have the accurate info since info is being posted.

The pm us moderators are referring too was not an attack or response to an attack to another member. This pm was an attack on the forum and of course the mods. It was full of extremely nasty comments and never once acknowledged any members besides the staff. So it is possible you are talking about another exchange between her and another member. The pm bashing the forum was brought to our attention Friday morning, I am not sure when smf sent it but at the latest it was Friday morning.

An argument between members would not warrant a banning and had nothing to do with the decision. The reasons she was banned are bashing the forum and mods continually, both publicly and privately after repeatedly being warned for the last year and a half. This wasn't just something that moderators have been dealing with since Romeo's thread. Also she broke another rule by posting people on sub are not clean.

Had she wanted to remain here she could have stopped or pm'd us after warnings and her final pm informing her she was being banned. She didn't stop, and not once did she contact us. I will say for the last time, she was a moderator and knew the rules, she was repeatedly warned and continued posting and stating in her posts that she would be banned for what she had written. There has never been a more clear decision made in my view. If you continue to break rules you must face the consequences of your decision, period.


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 Post subject: Oh My
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:26 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:59 pm
Posts: 38
Wow :evil: ! Can't we all just get along :wink: ?


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